Nazi Germany VS The Soviet Union

You use what you’ve got, I believe I read that the US had more trucks than any other nation, but it was easier for us to build and ship trucks than breed, feed and transport horses.

The issue of mechanization in the whermacht was not a reason for its failure because the winter campaigns of 41 and 42 caused major problems for trucks as the oil froze up and transports broke down. Horse was a good way to over come some of these issues. German logistical capabilities were very good probably second after USA and definatly better than the Soviets. However, not going to total war economy was a key issue for German failure but not an influence that could not be compensated by other means such as military doctrine and organizational advantages that Germany had.

Oh, I’m not arguing the mechanization issue. If Germany had gone into a total war economy and war production, then they probably could have matched Russia better at least in the tank and artillery department, not the man power. Germany just didn’t prepare as well as they should have for the invasion of Russia. If they had, then they probably would have had a variety of vehicles that could handle the perpetual cold, along with more winter weather gear for the troops.

“yea AFTER Stalingrad…. nobody will debate that any hope remained AFTER Stalingrad. However in August 41 anything was possible”

I understand that, but the question is about Germany vs. Soviet Union. The fact remains that the VAST majority of the German divisions were fighting the Soviet Union and the battle of Stalingrad and the German decline after their defeat suggests that they would have lost the war against the Russians even if the Americans and British had nto been involved. Remember that the Germans were on the run long before D-Day, and that the Anglo-American front was seemingly only opened eventually when the British and Americans feared Soviet hegemony over Germany. On the other hand, there is something to be said about the salience of American Lend-Lease Aid.

but the question is about Germany vs. Soviet Union. The fact remains that the VAST majority of the German divisions were fighting the Soviet Union and the battle of Stalingrad and the German decline after their defeat suggests that they would have lost the war against the Russians even if the Americans and British had nto been involved.

Yea and Germany invaded the Soviet Union June 22 1941, and Stalingrad was about 1.5 years latter, what about THIS time period. Who cares about AFTER Stalingrad? Nobody is or can argue that Germany would win after Feb 1 1943, unless at Kursk Hitler started earlier and didn’t wait till the Soviets built 5 lines deep of fortification lines it perhaps can be argued that it may have bought time but not changed the outcome.

The only period of constructive discussion of a German victory would be her operations from June 41-about autumn 1942. Lots of possibilities were possible for Germany.

It is also an unassailable point that after Kursk the Soviet Union alone could have defeated Germany w/o no further help from western allies. If Germany stripped all her fronts and left them bare it would not have even dented the eastern front. The Soviets would have rolled all the way to the Spanish border

I would agree with IL’s last statement. I concur with it. The Russians didn’t need anyone’s help at all near the end. However, it needs to be pointed out -if it hasn’t already- that the Lend-Lease by the UK/US did help the Reds quite substantially. I know this is getting off topic, but for the first little while during 41-42 and probably a bit afterward, the Russians didn’t have a lot of transports and similar vehicles to help them get around. I can’t remember the numbers, but the Lend-Lease program gave the Russians quite a lot of vehicles to help them with their battles.

@The:

However, it needs to be pointed out -if it hasn’t already- that the Lend-Lease by the UK/US did help the Reds quite substantially. I know this is getting off topic, but for the first little while during 41-42 and probably a bit afterward, the Russians didn’t have a lot of transports and similar vehicles to help them get around. I can’t remember the numbers, but the Lend-Lease program gave the Russians quite a lot of vehicles to help them with their battles.

Aircraft 14,795
Tanks 7,056
Jeeps 51,503
Trucks 375,883
Motorcycles 35,170
Tractors 8,071
Guns 8,218
Machine guns 131,633
Explosives 345,735 tons
Building equipment valued $10,910,000
Railroad freight cars 11,155
Locomotives 1,981
Cargo ships 90
Submarine hunters 105
Torpedo boats 197
Ship engines 7,784
Food supplies 4,478,000 tons
Machines and equipment $1,078,965,000
Non-ferrous metals 802,000 tons
Petroleum products 2,670,000 tons
Chemicals 842,000 tons
Cotton 106,893,000 tons
Leather 49,860 tons
Tires 3,786,000
Army boots 15,417,001 pairs

courtesy of Wiki

This is from the U.S. alone, and does not include U.K. numbers.

It does not have the most important thing on the list:

Russian blood and toil

22 million Russians dead paid for victory, while we lost like 450,000 dead by comparison.

Payment in “tanks or machine guns” can only get you so far. lives are what count in statistics.

I think w/o Lend Lease Russia could still win, but more lives would be lost but if the campaign went the same way the result would be the same too.

35k motorcycles! damn it I want one of those back!

That’s a lot of boots. Did they have insulated sandals before the boots arrived?

Yes, Germany could beat the U.S.S.R out rightly if no other fronts existed. The Germans would still need the surprise factor and the results of the summer of 1941 to pull this off.

Without surprise the war would have drained Germany quicker than the vast U.S.S.R. I’m curious how German war material and fuel production would do without the hamper of bombing raids.

What a great question!

If Germany did over run Moscow do you think they would have kept going?  What would they have gained my taking SFE?

LT

Also didn’t the US kind of have to hold off on Berlin and let the Russians take it?

LT

Germany was not interested in going farther than the Urals… Archangel to Astrakhan was the line drawn by OKW  the rest would have been left to rot because it was useless land except for forest

Its like the Roman Empire…they didn’t have the desire to fight Barbarians when they were sitting in good farm lands

Stalin had many haters living within his borders. If Germany had treated the people living in the far western parts of the U.S.S.R fairly and given these people the idea that the Germans were liberators. Germany may have created an strong ally in the millions willing to fight againist their former country. It would secure the vast rear areas, which would protect supply lines.

Thats kind of what I thought.  Germany wanted a lot but their wants did have limits.

LT

This may have been pointed out already but what if England and France had not lived up to their promise to Poland. No Western front. Now you have a scenario were Hitler could focus souly on the USSR.

Many Ukranians looked upon the Germans as liberators at first. Then reality set in. With fair treatment and the right propaganda who nows how many soldiers Hitler could have drawn from the western nations living under Soviet occupation.

It’s incorrect to say these people would have been fighting their former countrymen if they had decided to kill some Russians. The USSR was an empire guided by an ideology and dominated by Russia. The provinces, territories, what have you, of the USSR were nations before the USSR. Now that the USSR has collapsed they are nations again. People in these lands would have gladly fought against their former oppressors.

In this scenario Germany wins no sweat.

Yes if Germany adopted a Anti-Commitern crusade and dropped the actual intent of what the Ukraine would eventually become, then they would have turned Russia into the situation that existed in 1917. But the Nazis didn’t really mask their intentions to their enemies. So its not possible to have it turn out that way unless Hitler was replaced. Many of his Generals were hard core Nazi ideologues ( Von Reichenau) who had their own polices to exact on the Soviet people.

Could the U.S.S.R survived a winter without Moscow?

depends on when the Germans take Moscow.

If they get it in October 41 no, because the Germans fan out and take all the rail points east of Moscow before the snow falls and deny Soviet logistical support on her north/south rail axis.

If its something from Typhoon in Dec 41, the Germans were too exhausted to push further allocating the last Battalion in that effort. Soviets hold for sure.

If Germans went for Moscow again in Summer 42, which is what the Soviets expected… then It would have been basically Kursk a year earlier with no hope of victory. However, the Soviets totally failed in Operations Mars and if Hitler was prepared for the Soviet attack he could have captured Moscow in early 1942 and could have really changed things back to Germany.