As the allies, how do you counter the German 1 build:
3 Transports, 1 Aircraft Carrier, built in SZ 5. (+2 Fgt from the mainland.)
Assume a standard 6 or 7 IPC bid to Africa to close Egypt. All fighters and bomber not on carriers in WE and the Med fleet in SZ 13 (SS, Trn, BB because odds of the defender getting two hits is almost nil when you attack it heavy with your own BB.)
I would build Inf in UK and reinforce as USA into UK … if russian figs are in range move those in too.
Extensive thread on this several months ago where crazystraw, myself, and several others went at this for about a week.
To this day, I think it is the main point of disagreement between myself and CS.
I advocate a US block in SZ12 (1 unit), reinforce UK w/US forces, and a UK AC/TRN or AC/DST build, with a fleet consolidation in SZ6. Germany can probably get through the navy, but they need their AF to do it, and that leaves them lacking punch for the land strike, especially against 4 or 6 INF, 2 ART, 3 ARM, 1 FIG, 1 BOM, AA (which is what you can get with the UK fleet build and USA reinforce). Remember, to be effective in going after UK, you have to sacrifice the TRNs LAST.
After the battle, Germany is spent in terms of Navy (Med fleet to clean-up), and the Luftwaffe is severely depleted. USA just opens up the TRN chain, and UK builds a capital ship for protection, then TRN’s and starts to unload on Germany with minimal risk from the Luftwaffe. Add in that Germany spent their G1 cash on navy, and Russia is already well advanced into German territory.
It is a make or break move that more often than not will break Germany.
And if Germany does it with no intention of attacking UK, all it does is let Russia advance against ZERO German land units built on G1, because on T2 a combined US/UK fleet will be there instead, and Germany does not have the punch to take it out.
With an AC/TRN build:
Naval Battle With 4 FIGs (and TRNs last for death) odds are only 64% that Germany can even ATTEMPT to land in UK
Sea Lion: 2.3%
With an AC/DST build:
Naval Battle w/ 4 FIGs (and TRN’s last) odds are only 54.1%
Sea Lion: 11.7%
If you want to just do a “Sea Lion Scare”, and forget a UK invaion attempt, you WILL kill the UK fleet. And then you will have no navy, USA advances their fleet, their AF comes to bear, UK rebuilds their fleet, and Germany is dealing with Russia advanced to Eastern/Balkans after R2, and forces in Germany for a counter-attack. You’d still ahve the Luftwaffe, but the Allies would immediately outgun you on the seas, and you lack fodder to use it against Russia for a turn.
Sucks to be Germany.
I can see that. I was wondering if maybe building a carrier and a destroyer with England and moving the BB, Trn and 2 fighters from england to SZ 6 might be enough in itself (with the Russian submarine) to stop it.
I’m wondering if the scare alone might be worth it though. Now that I see how it can be blocked, you’d still have a pretty big fleet in SZ 7 to hold the Americans and British back and you can even stage landings in Brazil and Africa from that vantage. With 5 transports, you’re pretty flexible and you might force the allies to spend more on war navy then transport navy to deal with you, won’t you? Could this work out in your favor, assuming standard opponent experience and dice?
How does the game shift if England does NOT do a fleet consoldiation in SZ 6? Is sea lion more viable or still wasted resources?
Also, with a consolidation of forces in W. Europe and E. Europe, can you keep Russia at bay until Germany 2 when you have a chance to put together infantry and, if you succeed in Sea Lion, Germany 3 when you can add significant artillery and armor in to augment infantry purchases to push them back out?
What should Japan be doing to strengthen Germany’s gambit? Perhaps setting up invasions of W. Canada and Alaska as well as hitting Asia Minor and the Soviet Far Eastern colonies, but weaker, in an effort to siphon off American money?
The problem with it is pretty simple…
Early in the game, the economics are ALL in favor of the Allies. And unless Russia is pushed back HARD and REPEATEDLY, they somply become too much of an issue for both Germany and Japan (mostly Germany).
The Axis threat, especially against North America, is simply too slow to develop. And with Russia pressing into Germany’s core territories, the Allies only FURTHER increase their economic edge… gaining $3 for Brazil in G3, but being down $16 for Eastern, Balkans, Belo, West Russia, Ukraine, Norway.
You either FORCE the Sea Lion strike, or all you do is turn Russia into an economic powerhouse that only needs some Allied FIGs and the occasional Allied landing threat in order to obtain control of Asia and Europe.
I’m only asking the follow up questions because it was too late to change Germany 1 and my opponent did NOT build fleet in SZ 6, he left it empty. He decided to set up a KJF instead, taking Borneo and New Guinea and spreading the British Pacific fleet from Solomons to New Guinea to the Sea near Kwangtung and Borneo. (SZ’s 45, 47, 48, and 59)
As Japan I decided to go navy myself, taking china, because I could, and destroying the British fleet with no losses to my own units. I’m sitting there with 3 carriers, 2 destroyers, 2 transports, 6 fighters, 1 bomber and 2 battleships staring at the American fleet of BB, DD, TRN, AC, 2 Fig, 1 SS (Pacific side.)
I’m assuming he’s going to move his Destroyer to SZ 12 to block the Med fleet. In which case, I plan to sink his destroyer and unify my fleet in SZ 7 giving Germany 2 Fighters, 5 Transports, 3 Submarines, 1 Destroyer and 1 Battleship. Pretty formidable on defense and it forces the allies to defend against future Sea Lion attempts.
I’m also going to assume he moves 2 fighters and 2 transports up to SZ 8 giving his fleet, 2 US Fighters, 4 Transports (2 US, 2 UK), 1 Submarine (Rus), 1 BB (UK) and 1 AC (UK.) That’s enough to stop my BB, SS, TRN, 5 Fgt and Bmb according to frood. And if he lands 2 Inf, 1 art, 1 arm on England he should be able to stop Sea Lion this round.
Though, he got hit hard in Ukraine and in W. Russia. Russia was reduced from 130 IPC in units to 98 IPCs in units after Round 1 (including his builds) and down to 93 IPC in units after Germany 1. (Hey, I couldnt let a solitary tank sit in Ukraine, right?)
Anyway, I’m in a good position to hit him anyway he goes, but I was curious as to the merits of hitting N. America with nuissance strikes iwth Japan if he decides to flee the Pacific? It could buy Germany some time.
I was also curious as to the merits of abandoning Africa with Germany (since Africa has 1 German Inf, 1 German Art and 1 British Inf currently) and leaving it to Japan, in which case an IC in E. Indies might be advisable.
If your US Opponent has not set up a WUS shuck, then nuissance strikes could give you the edge… 2 turns later… in a UK strike.
As for Africa…
I think the lack of UK forces (if it remains that way) and with the US almost certain to head for UK, GO FOR IT. Drop a few more troops in if you can. Grab the revenue to further increase the disparatity between Germany and UK… you are going to need it because Russia WILL be countering Germany… HARD… with that G1 build. And Germany will need all the cash it can get to make that threat viable and sustained, otherwise it is a pop gun that has already gone off.
As the allies, how do you counter the German 1 build:
3 Transports, 1 Aircraft Carrier, built in SZ 5. (+2 Fgt from the mainland.)
Assume a standard 6 or 7 IPC bid to Africa to close Egypt. All fighters and bomber not on carriers in WE and the Med fleet in SZ 13 (SS, Trn, BB because odds of the defender getting two hits is almost nil when you attack it heavy with your own BB.)
9 Victory Cities or more: Play more aggressive with Russia to the south. Have US & UK build a Sub instead of a Transport, or upgrade one to a Destroyer. I anticipate the difficulties Germany introduced to US and the UK will be offset by the lack of pressure against Russia.
8 Victory Cities: …um… KJF? shrug Germany just built a nice bridge from Berlin to Leningrad. I have doubts that Russia can hold it in the short term. Perhaps I would protect against Sea Wolf, and try and defend Calcutta. I don’t know. Have set up a board and think about it.
