Low Luck, Allied SBR

OK, so buy another one as UK and take it up to -24 IPC.

Hell, in LL you can even afford a Russian BOM, since it is just trading 1 Russian 1 INF for 1 German ART and knock the Germans down to -30 or so.

That still leaves the Allies with about $20 for Russia, $22 for UK, $28 for USA, against a Germany with only $15 or so.

And any time you feel like it, add those BOM to an amphib and add a kill per round of combat to the Russians, 2 kills per round to teh brits and 3 kills per round to the Americans.

1.  Not familiar with the Low-Luck rules for strategic bombing.  Please post details.

2.  What seeming Axis advantage?

Actually LL SBR’s are not necessarily an Allied adv.  It is an advantage to the side that has more pieces already on the board and the economic lead.
In other words it is good for the side that is already winning.

The Allies still have to reclaim Afr prior to employing the bomber strat otherwise they will only harm themselves once Germany is earning 45+ and Japan hits 40+ (as early as rd 2 or 3).  At this point the Axis should be using the SBR’s on not only Moscow but UK.  You can effectively take UK out of the game if you have most of Afr and both Japan and Ger bombing London.

Example, UK earns 25 and is SBR’d down to 10-13 by a Japan Ger 1-2.  Now if UK boms Germany that leaves them with about 3-5 IPC to spend.  That is not going to win.

I would consider employing a completely different strat as the Axis in a LL game.

As long as you take care of Afr on G1-G2 you won’t have to worry about a Allied bombing strat for several more turns.  They must reclaim Afr first, or at least land a sizeable force there, which should take at least two landings.

@newpaintbrush:

1.  Not familiar with the Low-Luck rules for strategic bombing.  Please post details.

In LL, the attacking bomber rolls a die and gets either a 3 or 4 for damage to the target, and instead of the defender rolling for a “1” for aa-fire they roll and get either a 2 or 3 for damage to the attacker’s bank (or subtracted from cash they collect at the end of the turn).

So, UK does a SBR on Germany and rols a “4” and Germany returns fire and rolls a “3”.  Germany loses the 4 IPC and UK ends up collect 30 IPC on their turn, theny then subtract the 3 IPC (for bomber damage) and end up collecting 27.

Darth, your analysis is correct, but lacks one bit of info…

At the start, the Allies have the economic lead, thus they can SBR to the max and STILL have income to use to counter the intial Axis moves.

That and Russia to start is a pretty nasty little nation that can slap away the first couple of Axis thrusts, depleting forces from the Axis while the Allies remove the Axis income.

@ncscswitch:

Darth, your analysis is correct, but lacks one bit of info…

At the start, the Allies have the economic lead, thus they can SBR to the max and STILL have income to use to counter the intial Axis moves.

That and Russia to start is a pretty nasty little nation that can slap away the first couple of Axis thrusts, depleting forces from the Axis while the Allies remove the Axis income.

That is not entirely accurate.  Yes, the Allies hold a brief IPC lead but they Axis quickly gain military superiority and can take the economic lead.  The Allies still need troops + navy.

UK and US can’t just buy a bomber a turn and take out the baltic fleet, the med fleet, and reclaim Afr.  Well they can BUT WTH are the Axis doing?

Ger and Japan can start SBRing Moscow in rd 2.  And if both buy a bomber in rd 1, Russia is already at about 12-15 IPC only.   Germany is still earning 40 and Japan is at mid 30’s and can spare the early bombing runs.

By Rd 3 Russia is able to spend ~10 IPC, and by rd 4 they can take the Russian income is under 10.

Two can play the SBR game.

Hey SBR UK on rd 1 instead.
Suppose Japan takes HI on J2, does US still buy bombers?
Wait if Japan takes Ala on J2 instead?

Suppose Germany goes with a Sea Lion scare.  LL might be a great time for a bid placement of a trn in the baltic then drop your AC or more trns there on G1.
UK CAN’T buy bombers b/c they can’t defend against Sea Lion.
Go for an Atlantic Unification early.
Buy a bom on G1 and J1 and again on G2 and J2.  The Allies better protect their ships or they’ll never get to Afr.
And keep buying them for Japan, cause as soon as you hit the income lead in rd 3, bye bye Allied bombing strat.
You can even bom the US instead by taking HI.

There are loads of counters.  Don’t let the Allies dictate the game.   :-D   :wink:

Sure if the Axis are going to sit back and get bombed then they deserve to lose.
The best defense is a good offense.   :-)

@ncscswitch:

Darth, your analysis is correct, but lacks one bit of info…

At the start, the Allies have the economic lead, thus they can SBR to the max and STILL have income to use to counter the intial Axis moves.

Switch, your info is correct, but lacks one bit of analysis - the allied economic lead is a bit of an illusion since the Allies have to spend so much on navy the first few rounds.

Adding to Darth comments…

OK, they Axis SBR’s Russia.  That only ADDS to the economic losses of the Axis from UK and USA SBR’s

And the Med Fleet CAN be contained, if not destroyed, and the Baltic Fleet likewise (though easier to jsut kill it unless reinforced on G1).

While weaker in initial units, the Allies can still land 8 divisions against Germany, then 4 the next round, Then 8 then 4, without a single ship bought.  That means they can still build their BOMs…

As the Axis I’d buy 1 bmb for Germany and send 2 Japanese bmb’s to Germany and SBR the UK. Combined with a strong push into Africa the Axis can strangle the UK and force the US to split their forces to retake Africa and land in Europe because if they don’t then the UK will only be making about 5 IPC’s or so every turn which effectively eliminates the UK SBR campaign on Germany. Both Axis powers can spare the small investment and Germany can turtle and wait for Russia to fall to Japan.

I guess I should read the entire thread before posting. Long story short, I agree with Darth.  :oops:

@U-505:

As the Axis I’d buy 1 bmb for Germany and send 2 Japanese bmb’s to Germany and SBR the UK. Combined with a strong push into Africa the Axis can strangle the UK and force the US to split their forces to retake Africa and land in Europe because if they don’t then the UK will only be making about 5 IPC’s or so every turn which effectively eliminates the UK SBR campaign on Germany. Both Axis powers can spare the small investment and Germany can turtle and wait for Russia to fall to Japan.

I guess I should read the entire thread before posting. Long story short, I agree with Darth.  :oops:

I don’t agree with industrial bombing in most cases.

But anyways, why would you be bombing London instead of Moscow?

@ncscswitch:

Adding to Darth comments…

OK, they Axis SBR’s Russia.  That only ADDS to the economic losses of the Axis from UK and USA SBR’s

And the Med Fleet CAN be contained, if not destroyed, and the Baltic Fleet likewise (though easier to jsut kill it unless reinforced on G1).

While weaker in initial units, the Allies can still land 8 divisions against Germany, then 4 the next round, Then 8 then 4, without a single ship bought.  That means they can still build their BOMs…

How?
Those ships (or at least the trns) are going to be sunk by Germany without an additional Allied capital ship purchase.  Unless they wait for the second US DD which can’t reach Sz 6 until rd 3.  But how are they going to proect both Sz 6 and 8?  They also can’t land in both Afr and Nor without more ships.

They still have to kill the Balitc Fleet, which in LL will quite possbily cost the UK their initial bomber should they continue with the Bom vs. DD (in a UK 1 attack).

I know you’ve liked the G1 AC purchase, the UK better be careful b/c here the Germans might be able to take control of the Atlantic especially if the UK isn’t buying anymore ships.  Or at least control it enough to secure Afr for another couple of rds.

The Med fleet is not necessarily contained.  I’m constantly able to get the Med fleet to the Indian Ocean in rd 3 in ADS and it would be a lot easier to do in LL.  In LL you can quite possibly do it on G2 b/c you can hit both Egy and Trj with better chances of success on G1 (with Lib bid).

My point is not that the Allies can’t use a bombing strat, it is that they can’t just start whilly nilly from rd 1 and each keep buying a bom a turn for the purpose of Sbr’s and expect to win.  There are some key priorities the Allies must do first or at least try and secure.  Allied boming runs won’t do squat nor should they scare the Axis when Germany is earning mid 40’s and Japan is basically walking through Asia earning mid 40’s as well.

Infact I’d invite any player to go with a strictly bombing campaign form rd 1 on (in LL) against me.  As the Axis with an 8 bid it should be smooth sailing for the for the very important first 3-4 rds, and by that time if the Allies haven’t bought significantly more ships and troops they are in trouble, b/c not only will the Axis have the military lead but they will have the economic lead and now SBR’s are counter productive for the Allies.  It doesn’t work in Classic and it won’t work in Revised.  Not until you sink ALL the German ships (trns) and are guaranteed of reclaiming Afr.

My bet would be that my opponent would end up not going with a bombing campaign immediately b/c they’ll see a very strong Germany in Egy or possibly Germany already in Egy and Trj.

Finally, just bid more.  :-)
Bid 9 and drop 3 inf in Europe and see if Russia can wait until rd 3 or 4 for the UK/US bombing runs are somewhat effective.

@newpaintbrush:

@U-505:

As the Axis I’d buy 1 bmb for Germany and send 2 Japanese bmb’s to Germany and SBR the UK. Combined with a strong push into Africa the Axis can strangle the UK and force the US to split their forces to retake Africa and land in Europe because if they don’t then the UK will only be making about 5 IPC’s or so every turn which effectively eliminates the UK SBR campaign on Germany. Both Axis powers can spare the small investment and Germany can turtle and wait for Russia to fall to Japan.

I guess I should read the entire thread before posting. Long story short, I agree with Darth. :oops:

I don’t agree with industrial bombing in most cases.

But anyways, why would you be bombing London instead of Moscow?

If the Axis control most of Afr (say Egy, Ken, Iea, Safr, Trj, Per and Ind) and Aus/Nz you can esstially reduce UK to ~18 (UK up Nor) then both Ger and Japan bom London you can take them out of the game b/c now they are only earning ~6-10.  Which means if they continue to use Sbr’s they will never have any cash to ever put more land units on the board.  This is good for the Axis.

You could also turn to bombing Moscow, but I mentioned London b/c you want to bom them before they can fully reclaim Afr which they need to support their bombing runs, b/c it will get harder and harder to reclaim Afr later if you are only able to buy 2-4 land units a turn if you gave the Axis free reign in the first few rds.

I’m not a big fan of bombing runs either, and even in LL would not employ them until I already thought I was winning or had nothing else to do with my boms.

You put the Capital Ships in SZ3 with most of the TRNs, you shuttle US forces from ECan to SZ3 to Norway.  For a fine example, see the game I just played with JSP to see how effective a small force can be.

Though a 6 and 6 transfer would be superior to the 8 and 4 originally posted.

As for Germany attacking that fleet… sure, go for it!  If the Germans attack a fleet of 3 TRN, 1 DST and 1 BB (what would be in SZ3 at all times with a 6 by 6 landing), the Germans CAN win, but will ose all but 1 FIG and 1 BOM on average, assuming they send all 5 FIGs and the BOM (which means all 5 FIGs are in Western and out of range of the Russians for 2 full turns).  With anything les than that…

say a FIG used in Egypt, then teh Germans lose all but the BOM

W/ a FIG and BOM stuck in Libya, then the attack fails and the Allies keep BOTH capital ships and only need to replace TRNs.

This of course assumes the UK killed the Baltic Fleet on UK 1.