How does Russia stay alive in KJF?

hey all,

I used to be on spring1942, and now have just started (1 year) playing A&A online. I was a low (700) gold last season (my first) and a 200 silver for allies. I do not pick a side, just random. I am finding this a bit of a problem as I have only 2 games as Axis, and 19 (complete, 3 ongoing) as Allies (57%).
Do others find this? or is it that since i do not have a ranking as Axis it is a problem getting a game as Axis? Thoughts?

Thank you,

royroger66

@JuliusBorisovBeamdog

Thank you! It’s working, appreciate the support.

I replied to Sgt privately, but for the thread I can say that we still want to release at least one other patch. However, we’ve been stuck in contract negotiations with Hasbro for a few years, so no news yet. We’re also a small team and there are other projects that need (probably quicker) attention, such as our Infinity Engine games.

@Joel-Velasco Thanks. This is a known issue. From what we’ve found, the reason is a forced submerge and an amphib, and then a complete withdrawal. The attack/NCM still runs.

I just read over your post again and it’s funny how with a different point of view other things stand out.

You said that US fighters to India does not synergize well with US Med Shuck plan. In some ways this is true. The fighters go to India and are not protecting US fleet in sea zone 15 or sea zone 13 on that round. That means 3 starting fighters out of circulation on this round.

However what US can do is round one build of carrier destroyer fighter transport infantry round one for 42 IPC.

UK positions Egypt forces in Trans Jordan round one US fighter from China lands there to support it. US waits in sea zone 11 for its build. Possibly moving starting destroyer and transports to sea zone 10 with 4 ground units moving north to east Canada for additional flexibility if that is safe from German ships in Atlantic.

Then round 2 US moves in to sea zone 13 with 2 destroyers cruiser carrier 2 fighters landing in Morocco. The carrier that went to sea zone 45 round one comes back around south America from there. It will arrive in sea zone 13 on round 4 filling that part of the escort chain at the same time as the Battleship and destroyer from the west coast arrives as well. It should be noted that if the PH carrier did not take this side route to sea zone 45 on round one and makes a bee line for sea zone 13 immediately through the canal it could arrive there on round 3 instead, but because of US needing to buy escorts, transports and ground to fill transports it doesn’t really have the resources to do all of that anyways. Other builds are higher priority and getting fighters to the center higher priority as well instead of having them idle around waiting for that carrier to arrive round 3. The one round detour does not take much away from that in terms of timing.

The US fighters in India have done their job of shoring up defense there vs J3 timing. This may cause Japan to not make the attack because it is unfavorable. Importantly this gives UK one more round to do another build round 4 and shore up its defense there. This may include UK fighters going to West Russia which can transition to India from there and take their place.

US fighters in India can be freed up from India round 3 to go to West Russia, possibly providing air support to attack on Kazakh along the way. Maybe they go to Caucus instead.

Then round 4 they can land on carrier in sea zone 15 and fighters from that carrier go to the carrier now arriving in sea zone 13.

It’s an option and how the transition lines up and actually does work together.

Those fighters may be needed in India or Russia still in which case US builds more fighters round 3 to land on the carrier reaching sea zone 13 round 4 instead. Depending on the board state and what the Allied needs are.

The focus here is to get US support to the center as quickly as possible and then once there to have the flexibility to shift them to where they are most needed afterwards in response to what Axis has done.

The key to all of this is getting units to where they can most help when they are needed. US and UK can do a form of fighter swapping between West Russia and India so that they are always present in the numbers required on Germanys turn, then transitioned to India as required on Japans turn.

UK fighters to India from WR and US fighters from India to WR. Somewhat doubling their defense capabilities by using the turn order against Axis in this way. While also making attacks of opportunity while transitioning.

Last post for reals? For this subject for a while anyways? Hm . . . :face_with_rolling_eyes: I’ll see how I feel at the end of this post.

USSR. Stack building/bleeding is fundamental. You can do multinational defense, but only one nation can attack at a time. What does that mean in practical terms? If Germany walks up to USSR and USSR wants to push Germany off, USSR needs a lot of power to do it, especially if Japanese fighters reinforced, which they can and really often should do even against KJF.

So what happens if USSR is sending a chunk of its power to east Asia? Those units are way out of position to push off any German pressure, and even if they turn around and head home immediately, they still used valuable turns just moving around. Some players like to claim you can “feint” or other clever-sounding phrases, but the fact is, out of position means out of position; your opponent can clearly see when you’re out of position and should play appropriately.

So when USSR sends stuff at Japan, it should be with the realization that it’s a big commitment, it’s a big problem for USSR. It might not SEEM like four or five infantry is a big deal, but think about what happens if you position seven infantry in the north and one or two infantry in China. That’s nine infantry, that’s 27 IPCs. If you lost all of northeast Asia, it’ll take how long for that to add up to 27 IPCs? A long time.

And if you put up a “token resistance” that’s often just silly. Japan wants to trample USSR anyways, all you do is stick a valuable 3-IPC unit where Japan probably has an odds-on attack to destroy it with no losses and take control of the territory anyways. Japan doesn’t even need to go out of its way, it just grabs the unexpected bonus and rolls on.

But then you look at all the problems KJF faces, especially in the 1942 Online implementation, and think “I need something extra”.

But remember again - the more USSR sends east, the less it has west, the earlier USSR in Europe collapses. It’s not enough that USSR units can race home and reach Russia right before Germany hits. If USSR units were pushed west instead of east, they could deter Germany from even advancing in the first place, without that deterrent Germany can come on fast and hard.

The takeaway here is - if USSR is bleeding out its Europe stack to push Asia, there had better be a real nice reward in there, and regardless USSR’s push can only be temporary - USSR just doesn’t have the time to use a chunk of its forces to mess about unless the Axis are wildly incompetent. Which I suppose you could say usually they are in the 1942 Online meta but still.

By extension, if you’re using just slow infantry then you’re not going to be able to redirect at speed at all. Your infantry will be trudging home after having trudged deep into east Asia and will be totally too late to do anything useful in all likelihood.

So if you want to push KJF, there’s two things to remember for USSR that you don’t need so much in KGF - tanks and bombers.

Yes, USSR tanks, you can use against Karelia, it’s a whole thing. But you need infantry/artillery for unit count and to threaten the big strafe - you hit a German territory, deplete its infantry, move your infantry up. Germany lost infantry, you lost infantry, but Germany can’t really just pull more infantry out of its pocket, it takes a long time to march up. Your infantry, on the other hand, basically just rolled out of bed into action. So then when Germany hits, its infantry shield is a lot weaker, it can’t shield its tanks, it gets messy. If you do USSR tanks, you have much better flexibility but you lose out on raw hitting power for the strafe, and that’s why if you’re greedy and think you can get away with it, you push USSR infantry/artillery as a rule and tanks only situationally.

But USSR tanks in KJF are much different. The application probably isn’t just that you’re trying some sort of counterthreat against Karelia and/or Ukraine. Centrally located tanks along with a small infantry contingent and a bit of air coverage can be a big headache for Axis to deal with.

Imagine you have two tanks on a West Russia stack. You defend West Russia - but you also also threaten Kazakh if Japan tries to push and hold. Imagine now you have six infantry on Russia that can hit Kazakh. Say you can use those six infantry and two tanks to hit and weather any Japanese counter. But then, you need six infantry ready at Russia, which means they’re not at West Russia, which means USSR is splitting its forces.

But now imagine you have four tanks on West Russia and two infantry on Russia. Your defense on West Russia is stronger, as are your potential attacks against nearby European territories. Your ability to hit and hold against Kazakh is reduced. And you might think that’s a tradeoff that means it isn’t so great. But not quite.

If you correctly understand and apply stack building and bleeding you’ll remember - you can only use one nation to attack at a time, but multiple nations can defend. So what seems to be a worse position at Kazakh isn’t necessarily so, as UK can reinforce USSR’s position.

I think even newer players should understand that Germany’s tanks are valuable to Germany, especially against KGF. But in KJF, USSR tanks assume similar importance. They are very very good for threatening multiple theaters while also defending and it’s that threat range along with allied reinforcements that make USSR tanks really very good.

So does that mean you should hit West Russia/Ukraine sending only 2 USSR tanks to Ukraine? Or that you should retreat from Ukraine under some conditions?

I could run some numbers and projections but eh, I’m taking a break. But remember, USSR being able to reposition quickly is worth a lot in KJF.

@Brian-Cannon The Japanese basically need to hang out in SZ 61 with all of their navy and air force. If the starting US forces in SZ 53 are killed J1 then there won’t be any credible US forces at the Solomons until US3. By that point Japan should have enough parked in SZ 61 that it would be suicide for the US to move in. The magic of SZ 61 is that it threatens both India and the money islands and allows you to shuck in troops from Japan right into Yunnan so you can choose to either march for India or Russia from there. The US player is very limited in how fast they can attack since they have to start by replacing expensive capital ships and then moving them into position. Japan mostly just needs to buy fodder. J1’s first buy should probably be enough transports to get 3 total and then subs. J2 buy a carrier. After that you make sure your transports are always full dropping off troops for Japan while buying more naval fodder or an air unit as the need arises. You may have to buy more carriers later on to keep parity with the US but with massed subs on your side 3 carriers total may suffice and it may be more cost-effective to build bombers to base in Yunnan as they can support Japanese pushes for a long time from that area. All purchases of capital ships by the US make them stronger at the cost of slowing down when they can make their big move.

Speaking of which, a lot of players promote massed subs + air for the naval game, and this is a good combination but one that only works for attack, not defense (the same IPC spent on destroyers or subs always has a higher chance to defeat the equivalent number of subs). Luckily this works out for Japan since you want the US to be so desperate to save Russia or India they attack Borneo at bad odds, so you’re almost always going to be guaranteed a first strike. In this light you have to be careful since something the US can do is send in just enough to take Borneo while still leaving their main navy camped at the Solomons. Now you may be forced to send in capital ships to retake Borneo since you can’t send in air power to get the island back without giving them carriers to land on and you may be very weak to counterattack if you did nothing but sub buys. If you don’t fall for this trick then you’re sacrificing transports, but that still works out. If you do a big dump of 6 units on Borneo (only if you’re forced to take it back, mind, not until then) then the US player will not take it back again without either taking time to buy a bunch more transports + ground (ok for you, any navy they don’t buy delays the big showdown) or having to move in their navy so they can use air power to get it (same choice Japan needs to make on retaking it).

Very long-term though (like turn 10+) the UK and US will of course defeat Japan if they refuse to take needless losses since they outnumber Japan in income. So the wiseguy answer to How do you beat KJF? is really win with Germany. Given that it is so easy for Japan to at least tread water in the Pacific even if they can’t expand, Germany should be close to taking out Moscow. If Germany can reliably hold Caucasus then the UK can be forced into doing trades for both Persia and Burma that is not sustainable given the 3 unit production limit, or they have to let Axis units pile up there and let themselves be bottled in. With Japan in SZ 61 and pipe-lining troops into Yunnan every turn it takes a major effort from the UK to keep India in the game- they will be forced to fly in fighters which means their European spending won’t be anything more than an annoyance. Consider making sure the Med transport doesn’t die so that Egypt goes under by turn 2 at the latest and you keep pumping 2 units every turn into Africa to capture it and add more pressure to India. Take Gibraltar so that there is no place for Allied air to land if they try to get air units into the Med to sink your navy. Possibly also start a very slow build-up of men in Morocco so you have a small stack there mid-to late game to discourage the Allies from landing there and taking back North Africa or encourage them to waste a turn cleaning it out. I’ve never tried that personally but it might have a little more value in a pure KJF setup since it might discourage the Allies from switching their strategy or make it far more difficult to pull off if they do switch. Either way make sure that over half your income as Germany goes into infantry every turn and you only add to your supply of tanks and air power very slowly. Based on Russia’s opening moves minimally you would have 9 tanks in Europe which is already a good stack after you consolidate it. I would probably not even buy any tanks at all and just build up the air force which will likely need a few replacements anyway after the G1 naval attacks against the Allies. A stack of German fighters in Caucasus will be able to threaten Moscow and India. Germany has such an income advantage over Russia there is no way they can hold out that long if the Allies literally do nothing in Europe. The most likely players would probably do 2 turns of US buildup unless Japan was so misplayed that they went in immediately. In this kind of a case the US would not have a navy at Borneo until US4 meaning Japan attacks on J5. With 4 turns of buildup I don’t know how Japan wouldn’t devastate any fleet the US could possibly get to Borneo. And after that comes G6, by which point Russia should be doing well just doing exchanges over Archangel and Kazakh. Honestly I think it is so easy for Japan to delay the Allies (notice I said delay, not defeat) KJF seems like an nonviable strategy in this version of A&A between skilled players.

Side note- with Caucasus in German hands, you could also even consider shucking German fighters onto Japanese carriers in SZ 61 to help shore up the defensive power of the Japanese navy, but from what I understand A&AO doesn’t implement this capability which violates the board game rules.

@Dimitri Taking the Solomon Islands prevents Fighters flying into the SZ from 3 spaces away from being able to land unless they bring a Carrier with them, which in-turn gives you the opportunity to counterattack with Submarines, dooming the FTRs.

That being said, what I typically do after B1 is have the US fleet move to Solomon Islands (if able) and after that have the UK fleet shadow the US one, as you said.