Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement

@simon33 The rulebook affirms immediately, on absolutely general terms, that once you load you cannot move anymore. Then, before starting talking about bridging, it (unnecessarily) states again than offloading transports can never move again, on the same turn, and makes an example, where offloading is the last action (and in no examples ever happens that you have a transport moving after offloading). Then, when making the case for bridging, it (unnecessarily) again tells that you cannot move until the next round, once you offload (and, yeah, as here we are indeed applying the bridging rules more generally, that would be generalized too, despite no need).

To be clear, the reason why the bridging rule is being generalized is that, otherwise, for example, if you load and offload without moving, then you cannot load anymore, while, literally, if you load, move out and, then, into the same sea zone, again, then offload, you would be able to load again the transport you just offloaded, either from anywhere (literally) or from the territory you just offloaded into (if expanding the no multiple territories offload rules to loading after offloading), which would be practically absurd, as we cannot seriously imagine the original author intended that if you go out and into the same sea zone, then, you can do more, after offloading, than by just making a bridging move.

I hope now it is all clear. I believe this pretty much summarizes all that me and @Krieghund went through, on this matter.

@simon33 said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

I find the rule allowing loading after participating in combat quite strange. So only if the transport didn’t offload, but also moved on combat movement, perhaps to evade combat, or maybe to participate in a battle which went better than expected. Then it can load units from that coast. Perhaps it wants to evacuate such troops?

I’m guessing the confusion this has created and low usefulness is the reason it was dropped in later rulebooks.

I don’t think the rule was actually dropped, but rather ruled out.

What I mean is, if @Krieghund can confirm what I’m saying here, by the way we are interpreting the rulebook, those “special” rules are not even necessary to have such a behaviour (thus purely redundant, but certainly good to have as clarifications), meaning that if we would take the rulebook and complete delete the following two entries (like making an “Errata”, saying that these two entries are to be ignored):

Page 21:

Transports that have been in combat may either load or offload (not both) during this phase, but not if they have retreated from combat this turn.

Page 31:

A transport that has been in combat may load or offload after combat, but never both.

Then, instead, just adding this rule, to the rulebook:

Transports that have retreated from combat may not load nor offload anymore, this turn.

We would still be able to perform all such actions, anyway, and nothing at all would change in our understanding of the game.

• For the offloading case, the reason why we would still be always able to offload already loaded units from a transport that was in a victorious sea battle is that nothing in the rules forbids those already loaded units from moving into an adjacent land territory, as the transport moving with them on board doesn’t count as a movement for them too (only having the restriction to the same territory we offloaded during Combat Move, if we offloaded anything (otherwise, we are free to choose the single territory we are moving to)).

• For the loading case, the reason why we would still be always able to load unmoved units in a land territory onto a transport that was in a victorious sea battle is that nothing in the rules forbids those units from moving onto a transport in an adjacent sea zone, but only as long as the transport didn’t offload anything yet, as we have generalized the bridging rules that always forbids loading after offloading.

• For the part telling us that we cannot both load and offload, specifically meaning we cannot both load then offload, we can infer that restriction from the fact that, doing so, would mean making a bridging action, and it seems that the rules are assuming that only transports that can still move can also do bridging, instead of moving, during Non Combat Move only, thus bridging cannot be performed if the transport is already unable to move (but this is not literally clear). Since the bridging rules are not explicitly actually saying that “bridging counts as moving for the transport”, then one might argue that the transport is not moving when bridging, thus bridging can be performed also by transports that are unable to move (for example, for having moved during Combat Move), in this case, then, reading the rules literally, we would end up with saying that “we should be allowed always to load, from any adjacent territories, and, then, offload, without moving (bridging), during Non Combat Move, after having offloaded, during Combat Move or Non Combat Move or both, as long as that transport hasn’t been in a sea battle and as long as it didn’t already load and offload without moving (bridging), but this bridging after offloading being allowed only as long as offloading again into the territory we already offloaded into, on the same turn”, that would, for example, mean that, during Non Combat Move only, we could do all this sequence of actions: load 2 unmoved infantries from any adjacent territories onto an empty transport, move the transport to a friendly sea zone, move the transport back to the previous sea zone, offload the 2 infantries anywhere, but on the same land territory, load 2 more infantries from any adjacent territories, offload these 2 infantries into the same land territory as the previously offloaded ones, basically being able to perform a double bridging move, shipping a total of 4 infantries per transport per turn, over a same sea zone, as long as there is a not hostile adjacent sea zone, to move into and out, on the first pseudo-bridging action.

• For the part telling us that we cannot both load and offload, specifically meaning we cannot both offload then load, this we already inferred, by generalizing the no loading after offloading restriction of bridging.

The only doubt on this matter may be cast by Page 21:

Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they moved during the combat move phase.

As if you would interpret this as a restriction saying that “you cannot move nor load nor offload, if you moved during Combat Move”, then loading and offloading after combat would be illegal in all cases, but only if the transport started its turn in the embattled sea zone, and didn’t move. So, in this case, we would actually need those rules making an exception to this one, for sea units that did combat, though, then, we would be presented with the rather absurd case that a transport going into combat can load or offload, not both, during Non Combat Move, while a transport moving out of a hostile sea zone, ending Combat Move into a friendly one, doing nothing else, cannot do the same (while it also can load or offload, but not both, during Non Combat Move, instead, if @Krieghund can confirm).

However, we are already not interpreting it that way, because, if we were doing so, then we would also be unable to offload an already loaded unit from a transport that moved and offloaded another unit (either already on board too or loaded on the turn), during Combat Move, without making any sea battles, which we, instead, have determined we can do, despite the rulebook never actually specifically telling us so (differently from the offloading after combat case).

So what we believe, if @Krieghund can confirm, the rule above is saying is that “transports can non combat move, load and offload only if they didn’t combat move”, meaning that we cannot do all of that (and specifically moving) if we moved, but that it is not giving any restrictions about Non Combat loading or offloading, only, after Combat moving.

Yet another matter is that we might interpret, instead, those rules as being exceptions to the general rules. If we would read them as such, then, for example, the rule:

Transports that have been in combat may either load or offload (not both) during this phase, but not if they have retreated from combat this turn.

would allow us to send a transport into combat and, at the same time, offload units from it into combat, and, then, load the transport during Non Combat Move, no matter if we generalize the no-loading-after-offloading bridging rule, as long as we read the load-after-combat rule as an exception to such a generalized rule, anyways. However, this doesn’t actually matter, as long as we are also extending the single territory offload rule as barring from loading from another territory after having offloaded, as, in this case, we could load only from the territory we Combat offloaded into, that surely has no eligible units for loading. Other than that, it would be clearly absurd for a transport performing the same actions as another, but also taking part in combat, then, being able to perform a wider array of actions than the former could (this same principle is also the basis why we cannot accept that we can do less if we bridge than if we also move the transport, during Non Combat Move only).

I think, anyways, we can all easily agree that Revised OOB should absolutely never be used in any competitive situations, like any tournaments, where rules clarity is of the utmost importance, and that’s why Revised LHTR exists, isn’t it?

Hopefully @Krieghund can confirm all I said here makes sense, otherwise that means we are not yet on the same page.

@simon33 said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

I find the rule allowing loading after participating in combat quite strange.

Personally, the only thing that I cannot quite collocate is that (as clarified) you can do it from two territories. Since we cannot assume that the transport is splitting into two halves, in the same sea zone, especially in the case we are loading 2 land units that are not both infantries, that practically means the transport is loading from one coast, then moving to another coast to load. After having been in combat, the transport being immobilized, it would make more (or the only?) sense to me that the transport can pick and stay on one coast only, anyways, as that is really the only reason why I can think he can load but not offload (as it would have to load and offload to the same territory, that is pointless).

For similar reasons, if somebody would have asked me to write the rules, I would have said that allied transports can load from only 1 territory, otherwise, in my mind, we have a transport that is moving coast-to-coast during somebody else turn.

I’m not arguing against anyone, and I accept the clarification, as well as certainly agree that is what the rulebook is saying too (you can load from multiple in both cases). Just letting anyone know my perspective.

@Cernel said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

@simon33 said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

I find the rule allowing loading after participating in combat quite strange.

After having been in combat, the transport being immobilized, it would make more (or the only?) sense to me that the transport can pick and stay on one coast only, anyways, as that is really the only reason why I can think he can load but not offload (as it would have to load and offload to the same territory, that is pointless).

Actually, correcting myself, this is not true, as, for example, you could have 1 transport with 1 infantry already on board that takes part in a victorious sea battle, then, during Non Combat Move, load 1 armour from a territory (keeping it on board) and, then, offload the infantry into the same territory (this is against the rules).

In my opinion this move, while being forbidden by the rules, would make more sense, overall, than the actual possibility of the transport being empty and loading two units from two different territories, after combat, though, of course, I do understand that, rule-wise, bridging (here the name is not even correct, as we stay on the same coast, thus we make no “bridge”) to and from the same territory only is not considered any different than other bridging cases.

Anybody else thinks the same?

Most likely all this comes from the fact that the original author just didn’t even consider the possibility you might ever want to load and offload on a same territory (admittedly, of very scarce relevance).

Just to be sure, am I right to assume that, for example, a transport that didn’t move and it is not moving, but has 1 infantry already on board and load 1 aa gun from a territory and, then, offload the infantry into the same or another territory, keeping the aa gun on board, is making a bridging move, in both cases (despite the fact that, in both cases, no units are actually moving over the sea to another territory and, in only the same territory case, not even the transport is doing that)?

@Krieghund said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

If it helps, over 10 years ago I created such a document comparing and contrasting AA50, AAR OOB, and AAR LHTR. It may make a good starting point:

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=1726

Is this anywhere to be found?