The Afrika Korps

@Marshmallow:

@WILD:

Arthur Bomber Harris, was your opponent aware of your plan to use this strat. A UK1 Pac attack on Japan is pretty rare. Did the UK do a Taronto (doesn’t sound like it because Italy was in good shape).

If the Japanese transports are north on J1 and not at a naval base, they are no risk to India til J4 anyway. ANZAC and UK Pacific can clean up on the money islands and NOs til Japan can contest them. It sounds to me like his opponent made the strategically sound decision to start collecting a lot of money if that was the case – it costs UK nothing to declare war if Japan cannot retaliate by taking away UK territory.

However, I’m speculating – perhaps his opponent was aware of the plan…

Marsh

Exactly my point, that’s why I was asking for more info. Did the opponent know the plan, and if he did this test game didn’t offer much. The UK1 attack on the Japanese, and what looks like no Taronto raid seem to be pretty rare IMO. Both of these UK moves would directly have an effect on this Afrikorps strat.

On the Pac side if you know that they are going to slow boat it (keep the US out until they DOW end of US3) then yea you attack early with the UK because it has no effect on the US war status anyway. If he didn’t know the overall plan then as the Japanese you need to do a much better job of selling a J2 attack (then a J3 attack). As you said Marsh, if the Japanese navy/tpts are out of position to threaten the UK/Anz, then it could be coincidental that the UK was aggressive. You need to transport units down to Kwangsi to threaten the DEI etc…(can use them to retake Yunnan). You need to keep pressure on the UK, and make sure that if they are aggressive that you can make them pay at Burma etc… (while keeping your ground units from being easy targets).

On the Euro side if you know the plan then you probably want to preserve your UK assets for counter attacks/def. Plus you know it will be awhile before the US can bail you out. England is a possible alternate target, so you have to defend the Island Kingdom. Forgoing a Taronto Raid helps with both of these issues, and kinda works directly against this AK strat. It keeps most of the RAF at home, and the Med fleet stays alive. Now it is possible that if he followed a heavy G1 naval build (carrier, dd, tpt) that the UK player just buckled down. So again as the axis you want to threaten England, but you also want the UK Med fleet sunk so it can’t be used later (need to walk a fine line on G1).

My first German build was a complex on Romania, some subs and a tank. The complex was so I could build a little navy presence in the Turkish strait so once I take Turkey I could relieve some pressure on the Italians.  The U.K reacted by building a complex on Egypt and stacking there.  The Italians were great right off the bat as I placed a german fighter on Southern Italy and when the British did the Taranto raid they failed and Italy had the Mediterranean to themselves.

Yeah the U.S. did spend a lot of money in the Pacific the first four rounds and than started building transports and shipping men in the Europe. Although they are starting to build a naval presence in the pacific again after getting crushed the first time I attacked them.

Also, I did use the Germans to attack Turkey on turn 3, as soon as I did this though, Russia started stacking in the Caucasus.

@GermanEmpire:

My first German build was a complex on Romania, some subs and a tank. The complex was so I could build a little navy presence in the Turkish strait so once I take Turkey I could relieve some pressure on the Italians.  The U.K reacted by building a complex on Egypt and stacking there.  The Italians were great right off the bat as I placed a german fighter on Southern Italy and when the British did the Taranto raid they failed and Italy had the Mediterranean to themselves.

Yeah the U.S. did spend a lot of money in the Pacific the first four rounds and than started building transports and shipping men in the Europe. Although they are starting to build a naval presence in the pacific again after getting crushed the first time I attacked them.

Also, I did use the Germans to attack Turkey on turn 3, as soon as I did this though, Russia started stacking in the Caucasus.

Ok so your game went a little smoother, but if you had faked a Sea lion (added a carrier to the Baltic fleet) instead of building the Romanian IC then the UK would have had to buy units for London instead of minor for Egypt (exactly what I would have done in that situation as UK). You were showing Barbarossa not Sea Lion giving them some breathing room IMO. I think I would have waited to build a minor w/Germany, maybe even waited to plop it down on Turkey (lots of possibilities).

O yea, did the Japanese hit and run the Hawaiian fleet J1?

Yeah I’ve never done a sea lion attempt or even faked it before ( I’ve played probably 20 games before) but looking at this forum i’m starting to see the benefits of faking one as the British have to spend money on the island giving the Italians some breathing room. Also no the Japs didn’t. The Americans I was looking at can hit the Japan fleet with quite a few things and even if they dint kill the Japan fleet it would be substantially minimized and I would have to spend IPC’s on more ships than on land units needed on the mainland. The ships went down south to threaten the British and Anzac and make them think twice before sending any ships to the money islands.

Also, basically all game since I declared war on turn 1 with Japan the British have been making 10 or less IPC’s a turn because I took Kwantung and Borneo on the first turn.

My opponent was not aware that I was trying the Afrika Korps plan, but he was an above average league player.  Making it tougher, this was a balanced mod game so the Allies are better off than the version that the strategy was designed for.    I did have bad luck on the G1 raids on the allied fleet, allowing the opponent to only partially spend on London reinforcements.  Still, I want a strategy that doesn’t fail 20% of the time if you lose a fair number of German planes.

The Japan side was a total disaster; I should have done a more standard J3-type plan.  Regardless, the European side was also a disaster because the opponent smartly combined his fleet in SZ92 and had enough planes/infantry in Gibraltar to completely ruin the plan.  Those troops and planes easily returned back to London on UK2 when I switched over to a failed Sea Lion plan B.  Italy was filthy rich but it is difficult to capitalize on the income when Russia can easily fend off German advances.

@WILD:

As you said Marsh, if the Japanese navy/tpts are out of position to threaten the UK/Anz, then it could be coincidental that the UK was aggressive. You need to transport units down to Kwangsi to threaten the DEI etc…(can use them to retake Yunnan). You need to keep pressure on the UK, and make sure that if they are aggressive that you can make them pay at Burma etc… (while keeping your ground units from being easy targets).

We are in full agreement on this Wild Bill. Having the Japanese navy deployed southerly there is all well and good, but on UK1 if Japan’s transports are in sea zone 5 UK Pacific is probably going to war. Without several transports accompanying it, the Japanese navy is a toothless force.

Marsh

Great story, Afrikakorps.  I assume that this is a traditional G40 game with no bid and no Balanced Mod?  In the unmodified/no bid games the Axis has such a huge intrinsic advantage so many strategies can all work.  Japan in particular suffers in the balanced mod because they cannot leave Chinese territories ungarrisoned.

@Afrikakorps:

I did used the described builds and other battle actions as described in the strategy besides Neutral Crush. German fleet builds provided a defensive UK and quick capture of Egypt by Italy that remained at 35+ IPC throughout the game and control of the Med + Fort Europa.

When you say Quickly, do you mean before I4?

If it was done befre I4, I  wonder about the UK player. In my experience, Italy cant capture egypt quickly.  At least not after the taronto raid.  The raid should be a lot more successful since you don’t fly the german ftrs to protect it.

There is no way for Italy to capture Egpyt on I2 (without lucky dice rolls) if UK retreats the fleet to the Red Sea, brings over a couple of fighters from India, has a transport in Persia, and carries the Malta inf + AA  to Egpyt.

On round 2:
3 fighters, 1 Tac, 9 inf, 2 art, 1 mech, 1 tank

Germany can do an expensive air raid of Egpyt on G2 trying to remove some critical units.  However that makes the game very difficult for the duration of the game.

I like the 92 sea zone fleet merge in many circumstances (state of British and German air and navies after G1). It keeps some pressure on Italy while posing an immediate threat to Germany (immediate covered landings in Belgium and Normandy) and going long ways to discourage sea lion. With this approach, the UK focuses on Navy + air as opposed to solely building infantry. The airbase in Gibraltar is a great force multiplier throughout the game.

I used to retreat the fleet to the red sea, but that approach does nothing to deter sea lion and the fleet often gets locked out of the Med.

@Omega1759:

I used to retreat the fleet to the red sea, but that approach does nothing to deter sea lion and the fleet often gets locked out of the Med.

The fleet can only get locked out of the Med if you let it.

Marsh

@Marshmallow:

@Omega1759:

I used to retreat the fleet to the red sea, but that approach does nothing to deter sea lion and the fleet often gets locked out of the Med.

The fleet can only get locked out of the Med if you let it.

Marsh

Half true. The Italians can usually take Trans Jordan to make time. The Germans can deny you more easily than 91. I also find the Far East British ship to have uses in the Pacific. Again, it’s not a senseless strategy but I like to put more pressure on Germany as opposed to falling back. itU does not matter as much for as long as you maintain control of Egypt.

@Omega1759:

@Marshmallow:

@Omega1759:

I used to retreat the fleet to the red sea, but that approach does nothing to deter sea lion and the fleet often gets locked out of the Med.

The fleet can only get locked out of the Med if you let it.

Marsh

Half true. The Italians can usually take Trans Jordan to make time. The Germans can deny you more easily than 91. I also find the Far East British ship to have uses in the Pacific. Again, it’s not a senseless strategy but I like to put more pressure on Germany as opposed to falling back. itU does not matter as much for as long as you maintain control of Egypt.

If you get locked out of the Med as the UK it is always your fault unless you took a lot of German planes out when your fleet was being sunk. If you move to 81 on UK1 and deploy blockers to keep Italy from taking Trans Jordan on I1, you are guaranteed of being able to return to the Med on UK2. If you stay out longer than UK2, it’s still your fault that you got locked out of the Med because you didn’t go back in when you had the opportunity.

Marsh

I agree, Marsh.  Blockers are wonderful things when you need time, and retreating into the Red Sea only invites invasion of Trans Jordan, which means valuable units and time are spent trying to retake it so that your navy can get right back where it started.  Whoever controls the Mediterranean has a much easier time controlling Africa.

@ShadowHAwk:

@Marshmallow:

@Omega1759:

@Marshmallow:

@Omega1759:

I used to retreat the fleet to the red sea, but that approach does nothing to deter sea lion and the fleet often gets locked out of the Med.

The fleet can only get locked out of the Med if you let it.

Marsh

Half true. The Italians can usually take Trans Jordan to make time. The Germans can deny you more easily than 91. I also find the Far East British ship to have uses in the Pacific. Again, it’s not a senseless strategy but I like to put more pressure on Germany as opposed to falling back. itU does not matter as much for as long as you maintain control of Egypt.

If you get locked out of the Med as the UK it is always your fault unless you took a lot of German planes out when your fleet was being sunk. If you move to 81 on UK1 and deploy blockers to keep Italy from taking Trans Jordan on I1, you are guaranteed of being able to return to the Med on UK2. If you stay out longer than UK2, it’s still your fault that you got locked out of the Med because you didn’t go back in when you had the opportunity.

Marsh

Whats the big deal with italy taking trans jordan UK1. Let them.
You got 4 fighters + 2 tacticals available if you took India air to afrika. He got 2 destroyer + 2 cruisers + 1 BB in defence so you sink his entire fleet and take trans jordan back.

If he only moves 1 transport there you sink it and destroy the land units also. Italy losing all of its med assets while UK retrains its fleet and moves in with a powerfull fleet the round after isnt bad at all it just ensures that the med is then UK only and italy isnt going anywhere. You can even start sending the air back to india to defend against japan.

You would attack with 4 fighters and 2 tacticals against 2 destroyer, 2 cruisers and 1 BB? That’s dicey, you have 28% chance of losing all that air.

If this battle fails while Germany has a Sea Lion opener, pretty sure that both Egypt and India fall easily (provided that you protect London)

Bottom line is that you can’t reinforce that red sea fleet effectively unless if you build that IC in Egypt and pour considerable resources in there (I say considerable because 98 is in range of all Axis air forces and the Italian fleet) . For as long as sea lion is a threat (and while the Italian fleet is alive), it’s impossible or hazardous to build that IC and the significant fleet build up that must go with it.

What do you do if Italy takes Trans Jordan, lands in force in Alexandria and Germany lands its air in Alexandria to protect the landing? You may be able to reinforce Egypt with the planes (so you have to leave the Italian fleet alone), but again, the fleet is locked out and has to sail away to get out of range of the German air force.

US units can reinforce the 92 fleet as soon as they enter the war, that allows the UK to produce land units in Africa and the Middle East, while landing some troops in Europe.  Canada can reinforce a 91 fleet in only 1 turn, with an existing IC, if needed.

@Marshmallow:

@Omega1759:

@Marshmallow:

@Omega1759:

I used to retreat the fleet to the red sea, but that approach does nothing to deter sea lion and the fleet often gets locked out of the Med.

The fleet can only get locked out of the Med if you let it.

Marsh

Half true. The Italians can usually take Trans Jordan to make time. The Germans can deny you more easily than 91. I also find the Far East British ship to have uses in the Pacific. Again, it’s not a senseless strategy but I like to put more pressure on Germany as opposed to falling back. itU does not matter as much for as long as you maintain control of Egypt.

If you get locked out of the Med as the UK it is always your fault unless you took a lot of German planes out when your fleet was being sunk. If you move to 81 on UK1 and deploy blockers to keep Italy from taking Trans Jordan on I1, you are guaranteed of being able to return to the Med on UK2. If you stay out longer than UK2, it’s still your fault that you got locked out of the Med because you didn’t go back in when you had the opportunity.

Marsh

If you deploy blockers on UK 1, you are guaranteed to get back in, but is this any help at all?

You lose the blockers, which weaken your fleet. Are you sure to be able to get back in on UK2? The Italian fleet and air force is still there which I think overpower your fleet. If you are counting on a UK1 Egypt build, then that opens up sea lion or a sea lion threat that will prevent you from using that IC to build the needed additions to that fleet.

It might be good to study the UK 1 behavior of highly ranked league players to see what they do in the Med.