Haven’t read the whole thread but:
Won’t the UK take a transport from SZ109 to send a troop to South America, which will activate all of the armies in no time. Doesn’t matter that USA are out of the war.
no one said this in the first page and a half.
Haven’t read the whole thread but:
Won’t the UK take a transport from SZ109 to send a troop to South America, which will activate all of the armies in no time. Doesn’t matter that USA are out of the war.no one said this in the first page and a half.
Good point, we missed it indeed so far! Then shuttling 11 Infantry to Africa. Hmm.
Arthur Bomber Harris, was your opponent aware of your plan to use this strat. A UK1 Pac attack on Japan is pretty rare. Did the UK do a Taronto (doesn’t sound like it because Italy was in good shape).
@WILD:
Arthur Bomber Harris, was your opponent aware of your plan to use this strat. A UK1 Pac attack on Japan is pretty rare. Did the UK do a Taronto (doesn’t sound like it because Italy was in good shape).
If the Japanese transports are north on J1 and not at a naval base, they are no risk to India til J4 anyway. ANZAC and UK Pacific can clean up on the money islands and NOs til Japan can contest them. It sounds to me like his opponent made the strategically sound decision to start collecting a lot of money if that was the case – it costs UK nothing to declare war if Japan cannot retaliate by taking away UK territory.
However, I’m speculating – perhaps his opponent was aware of the plan…
Marsh
It did make it clear that attacking Amur even when not defended is a wrong move. Normally UK1 declaring war on Japan is a godsend as you can take their islands without any USA interference in Europe. There is no situation the fleet is really neede (fully) in SZ6.
What about sending two full transports with carrier, battleship etc to reinforce Kwangsi. Losing Yunnan is indeed terrible for Japan. This provides enough threat for the UK to remain silent, provides force to take over islands or can simply fight against the Chinese in Yunnan.
Does not need JDOW1 to help Europe while also not weakening Russian border that much. Might be better for Japan to wait a couple of turns with Russia if Amur is not stacked and just focus China then while prepares for India/Sydney Crush.
Yes they do not gain much IPC but with China defeated in 3 Turns but you actually save a lot of IPC that needs to be spend on ground forces fighting Chinese otherwise
I come to think that a actually the United Kingdom are the game makers for the Allies if given the chance, the ones who delay delay and will take every opportunity given to this from the first turn. Especially for Italy in all games but as shown also possible for Japan or Germany. So they need to be threatened, contained or quickly decimated. Germany going Sea Lion is sub-optimal, Japan going India is optimal. I have been through a lot of battles in the League section and the UK making 35-40 early on dis not seem an exception.
Therefore I think the best Axis early investments are in threatening the UK (transports) and placing them able to force UK into defense instead of offense. This gives the Axis the power do the offense in the first few turns while all Allies are forced into defense.
Better still, because of these early UK investments you can focus 100% on Russia or the USA later on, instead of reacting to the UK.
This theory of UK first goes will with the Afrika Korps strategy, as Africa and Middle East are the UK stronghold and money maker. Without it they are a minor Ally, with it a major Ally. When Italy is making 40+ IPC (possible when Axis go UK first) it is able to defend its own + Europe against the USA. Making it possible to fully focus on Russia and win the game.
I adjusted the strategy based on lessons learned and strategic talk so far! Also did some changes already to the Battle Plan but will have to update and improve it some more later on. Thanks for all the discussion and even try out of the strategy.
I decided to try out this strategy the other day and it hasn’t failed quite yet, but it seems I am at a bit of a disadvantage right now. Currently its round 7 and the Germans have made some headway into Africa as they are only 2 spots away from South Africa. They own most of the middle east but just last turn the Russians were able to capture Turkey and have about 10 land units on it. The Germans also own no Russian territories because to make any progress in the middle east and Africa Germany had too send enough units to do it and didn’t have enough to fight Russia. At one point Russia had full control of Slovakia. Also Germany has lost control of Norway to the U.S and they have built a minor there. Western Europe is heavily defended by Italy as they are making 30+ IPC’s a turn, but Spain looks like it is about to fall to yet another invasion attempt by the Americans and British combined.
Japan declared war on turn 1 and avoided attacking the Russians. The Japs looked like they were doing great because they had all of China by turn 5 and were threatening India, plus they owned all the money islands, but than the Russians sent over a pile of men and tanks because Germany wasn’t able to do much to Russia so Russia had units to spare. So now they are losing Chinese spots fast to the Russians. The Japs also currently have next to nothing of their navy left because they attacked the American fleet and succeeded but than got brutal rolls against a British fleet that came over from the Pacific.
I think Italy will be able to defend Europe for a bit longer w\out support from the Germans but the Germans will have to help defend Spain. The Germans if they get to spend all their money on Russian could make some progress but some of their money is going into Africa cause the Allies bought a complex on Egypt and British is now spending 15 IPC’s a turn on the South Africa complex so taking Africa is becoming a struggle. The Japs if they spend almost all their money on the mainland buying land units will be able to retake what they’ve lost to the Russians in China but with barely any fleet left the combined forces of whats left of the British fleet, the transports and subs of Anzac and the newly built American fleet, soon all the money island will be in Allied hands and Japan’s economy will suffer because of that. On the other hand if Japan responds to the fleet build up and spends most of their money on ships, they will either be overrun on the mainland or if they are lucky just hold their original Chinese spots. Either way Japan’s economy is going to suffer in the coming turns.
I decided to try out this strategy the other day and it hasn’t failed quite yet, but it seems I am at a bit of a disadvantage right now. Currently its round 7 and the Germans have made some headway into Africa as they are only 2 spots away from South Africa. They own most of the middle east but just last turn the Russians were able to capture Turkey and have about 10 land units on it. The Germans also own no Russian territories because to make any progress in the middle east and Africa Germany had too send enough units to do it and didn’t have enough to fight Russia. At one point Russia had full control of Slovakia. Also Germany has lost control of Norway to the U.S and they have built a minor there. Western Europe is heavily defended by Italy as they are making 30+ IPC’s a turn, but Spain looks like it is about to fall to yet another invasion attempt by the Americans and British combined.
Japan declared war on turn 1 and avoided attacking the Russians. The Japs looked like they were doing great because they had all of China by turn 5 and were threatening India, plus they owned all the money islands, but than the Russians sent over a pile of men and tanks because Germany wasn’t able to do much to Russia so Russia had units to spare. So now they are losing Chinese spots fast to the Russians. The Japs also currently have next to nothing of their navy left because they attacked the American fleet and succeeded but than got brutal rolls against a British fleet that came over from the Pacific.
I think Italy will be able to defend Europe for a bit longer w\out support from the Germans but the Germans will have to help defend Spain. The Germans if they get to spend all their money on Russian could make some progress but some of their money is going into Africa cause the Allies bought a complex on Egypt and British is now spending 15 IPC’s a turn on the South Africa complex so taking Africa is becoming a struggle. The Japs if they spend almost all their money on the mainland buying land units will be able to retake what they’ve lost to the Russians in China but with barely any fleet left the combined forces of whats left of the British fleet, the transports and subs of Anzac and the newly built American fleet, soon all the money island will be in Allied hands and Japan’s economy will suffer because of that. On the other hand if Japan responds to the fleet build up and spends most of their money on ships, they will either be overrun on the mainland or if they are lucky just hold their original Chinese spots. Either way Japan’s economy is going to suffer in the coming turns.
Looks like a very interesting game! What were your first German builds? How did the UK react?
Also what did the USA when you crushed the Neutrals and JDOW1? I imagine first four turns spending on the Pacific and then full Europe?
Would it have made a difference when you send Afrika Korps mainly towards Southern Russia? What were the initial Russian forces in Caucasus and Stalingrad when you captured Turkey with Italy (or did you do Germany?).
@Marshmallow:
@WILD:
Arthur Bomber Harris, was your opponent aware of your plan to use this strat. A UK1 Pac attack on Japan is pretty rare. Did the UK do a Taronto (doesn’t sound like it because Italy was in good shape).
If the Japanese transports are north on J1 and not at a naval base, they are no risk to India til J4 anyway. ANZAC and UK Pacific can clean up on the money islands and NOs til Japan can contest them. It sounds to me like his opponent made the strategically sound decision to start collecting a lot of money if that was the case – it costs UK nothing to declare war if Japan cannot retaliate by taking away UK territory.
However, I’m speculating – perhaps his opponent was aware of the plan…
Marsh
Exactly my point, that’s why I was asking for more info. Did the opponent know the plan, and if he did this test game didn’t offer much. The UK1 attack on the Japanese, and what looks like no Taronto raid seem to be pretty rare IMO. Both of these UK moves would directly have an effect on this Afrikorps strat.
On the Pac side if you know that they are going to slow boat it (keep the US out until they DOW end of US3) then yea you attack early with the UK because it has no effect on the US war status anyway. If he didn’t know the overall plan then as the Japanese you need to do a much better job of selling a J2 attack (then a J3 attack). As you said Marsh, if the Japanese navy/tpts are out of position to threaten the UK/Anz, then it could be coincidental that the UK was aggressive. You need to transport units down to Kwangsi to threaten the DEI etc…(can use them to retake Yunnan). You need to keep pressure on the UK, and make sure that if they are aggressive that you can make them pay at Burma etc… (while keeping your ground units from being easy targets).
On the Euro side if you know the plan then you probably want to preserve your UK assets for counter attacks/def. Plus you know it will be awhile before the US can bail you out. England is a possible alternate target, so you have to defend the Island Kingdom. Forgoing a Taronto Raid helps with both of these issues, and kinda works directly against this AK strat. It keeps most of the RAF at home, and the Med fleet stays alive. Now it is possible that if he followed a heavy G1 naval build (carrier, dd, tpt) that the UK player just buckled down. So again as the axis you want to threaten England, but you also want the UK Med fleet sunk so it can’t be used later (need to walk a fine line on G1).
My first German build was a complex on Romania, some subs and a tank. The complex was so I could build a little navy presence in the Turkish strait so once I take Turkey I could relieve some pressure on the Italians. The U.K reacted by building a complex on Egypt and stacking there. The Italians were great right off the bat as I placed a german fighter on Southern Italy and when the British did the Taranto raid they failed and Italy had the Mediterranean to themselves.
Yeah the U.S. did spend a lot of money in the Pacific the first four rounds and than started building transports and shipping men in the Europe. Although they are starting to build a naval presence in the pacific again after getting crushed the first time I attacked them.
Also, I did use the Germans to attack Turkey on turn 3, as soon as I did this though, Russia started stacking in the Caucasus.
My first German build was a complex on Romania, some subs and a tank. The complex was so I could build a little navy presence in the Turkish strait so once I take Turkey I could relieve some pressure on the Italians. The U.K reacted by building a complex on Egypt and stacking there. The Italians were great right off the bat as I placed a german fighter on Southern Italy and when the British did the Taranto raid they failed and Italy had the Mediterranean to themselves.
Yeah the U.S. did spend a lot of money in the Pacific the first four rounds and than started building transports and shipping men in the Europe. Although they are starting to build a naval presence in the pacific again after getting crushed the first time I attacked them.
Also, I did use the Germans to attack Turkey on turn 3, as soon as I did this though, Russia started stacking in the Caucasus.
Ok so your game went a little smoother, but if you had faked a Sea lion (added a carrier to the Baltic fleet) instead of building the Romanian IC then the UK would have had to buy units for London instead of minor for Egypt (exactly what I would have done in that situation as UK). You were showing Barbarossa not Sea Lion giving them some breathing room IMO. I think I would have waited to build a minor w/Germany, maybe even waited to plop it down on Turkey (lots of possibilities).
O yea, did the Japanese hit and run the Hawaiian fleet J1?
Yeah I’ve never done a sea lion attempt or even faked it before ( I’ve played probably 20 games before) but looking at this forum i’m starting to see the benefits of faking one as the British have to spend money on the island giving the Italians some breathing room. Also no the Japs didn’t. The Americans I was looking at can hit the Japan fleet with quite a few things and even if they dint kill the Japan fleet it would be substantially minimized and I would have to spend IPC’s on more ships than on land units needed on the mainland. The ships went down south to threaten the British and Anzac and make them think twice before sending any ships to the money islands.
Also, basically all game since I declared war on turn 1 with Japan the British have been making 10 or less IPC’s a turn because I took Kwantung and Borneo on the first turn.
My opponent was not aware that I was trying the Afrika Korps plan, but he was an above average league player. Making it tougher, this was a balanced mod game so the Allies are better off than the version that the strategy was designed for. I did have bad luck on the G1 raids on the allied fleet, allowing the opponent to only partially spend on London reinforcements. Still, I want a strategy that doesn’t fail 20% of the time if you lose a fair number of German planes.
The Japan side was a total disaster; I should have done a more standard J3-type plan. Regardless, the European side was also a disaster because the opponent smartly combined his fleet in SZ92 and had enough planes/infantry in Gibraltar to completely ruin the plan. Those troops and planes easily returned back to London on UK2 when I switched over to a failed Sea Lion plan B. Italy was filthy rich but it is difficult to capitalize on the income when Russia can easily fend off German advances.
@WILD:
As you said Marsh, if the Japanese navy/tpts are out of position to threaten the UK/Anz, then it could be coincidental that the UK was aggressive. You need to transport units down to Kwangsi to threaten the DEI etc…(can use them to retake Yunnan). You need to keep pressure on the UK, and make sure that if they are aggressive that you can make them pay at Burma etc… (while keeping your ground units from being easy targets).
We are in full agreement on this Wild Bill. Having the Japanese navy deployed southerly there is all well and good, but on UK1 if Japan’s transports are in sea zone 5 UK Pacific is probably going to war. Without several transports accompanying it, the Japanese navy is a toothless force.
Marsh
We just finished a 10 turn game from 09:00 to 23:00. The Axis barely won with the capture of Moscow and Allies would be likely unable to capture a VC in turn, maybe the USA Leningrad who had build a stronghold in Norway after Allies succeded in finishing off the Baltic fleet in US7.
Unfortunately I could not try the Afrika Korps through Turkey as the Russian played extremely agressive so Germans needed to send all troops to Russian border.
I did used the described builds and other battle actions as described in the strategy besides Neutral Crush. German fleet builds provided a defensive UK and quick capture of Egypt by Italy that remained at 35+ IPC throughout the game and control of the Med + Fort Europa.
Although Germany lost the huge battle of Leningrad because of bad rolls and the USSR was able to go offensive for a couple of turns, the IPC from Middle East oil and Africa gold was able to 1. rebuild its Luftwaffe with 2 planes each turn while 2. building enough troops to hold off against combined USA, UK and USSR to eventually take victory even after horrible losses. Also loss of Norway did not mattered and Germany was making 70+ while besieged on all sides.
Japan waited with DOW and captured India in J4, money islands J5 and nearly 6 VC in J6 but lost several critical sea battles due to mistakes and bad rolls. This lost me the pacific but all China and UK wealth allowed me to send enough tanks and bombers to steal a Europe win after Germans softened Russia for Japan to capture it.
I send 2 Transports J1 to reinforce Kwangsi, this gave a huge boost to taking down Yunnan / China while later even took Stalingrad for a turn with air support allowing Germany to steal Caucasus. These transports also prevented UK / ANZAC island hopping.
I will definately play this strategy again as Axis. Loved the builds and strong Italy!
Great story, Afrikakorps. I assume that this is a traditional G40 game with no bid and no Balanced Mod? In the unmodified/no bid games the Axis has such a huge intrinsic advantage so many strategies can all work. Japan in particular suffers in the balanced mod because they cannot leave Chinese territories ungarrisoned.
@Arthur:
Great story, Afrikakorps. I assume that this is a traditional G40 game with no bid and no Balanced Mod? In the unmodified/no bid games the Axis has such a huge intrinsic advantage so many strategies can all work. Japan in particular suffers in the balanced mod because they cannot leave Chinese territories ungarrisoned.
Yes that is correct! We did played 2.0 instead of Alpha 3+ so no Allied fleet in SZ112.
I did used the described builds and other battle actions as described in the strategy besides Neutral Crush. German fleet builds provided a defensive UK and quick capture of Egypt by Italy that remained at 35+ IPC throughout the game and control of the Med + Fort Europa.
When you say Quickly, do you mean before I4?
If it was done befre I4, I wonder about the UK player. In my experience, Italy cant capture egypt quickly. At least not after the taronto raid. The raid should be a lot more successful since you don’t fly the german ftrs to protect it.
I did used the described builds and other battle actions as described in the strategy besides Neutral Crush. German fleet builds provided a defensive UK and quick capture of Egypt by Italy that remained at 35+ IPC throughout the game and control of the Med + Fort Europa.
When you say Quickly, do you mean before I4?
If it was done befre I4, I wonder about the UK player. In my experience, Italy cant capture egypt quickly. At least not after the taronto raid. The raid should be a lot more successful since you don’t fly the german ftrs to protect it.
The UK player did not do Taranto. Reason could be 2 Submarines in SZ106, 1 Battleship in SZ111, 1 German Tactical in Rome and 1 Aircraft Carrier, Transport and Submarine buy G1. Also fighter in Tobruk prevented attack in UK1. Instead of Taranto UK preferred to kill the 2 Submarines and Battleship. Allied did discussed about Taranto, Tobruk and Ethiopia but preferred to reinforce Egypt + Iran and create Red Sea fleet with German actions in mind.
I do not like the odds of a full Taranto so will never scramble in that situation while I also do not like to not send those 2 extra fighters to sea battles against the Royal Navy G1.
Italy could take Egypt in I2 while Germany reinforced it in G4 to collect the NO with a single Transport with 1 Infantry and 1 Artillery. According to the plan I captured Gibraltar and Morocco with the full Carrier (Fighter and Tactical) Cruiser and 2 Transport in G2. In UK2 he send 3 Fighters, Cruiser and Destroyer against that fleet but I managed to kill his forces with only the two Transports surviving.
While I sent a single transport back that other Transport actually provided countless IPC for Germany and Italy by sending troops to Egypt in G4. Then liberate Iraq (Allies had prevented this at all costs) in G5 with 1 Artillery. Those 3 Infantry and 1 Artillery where able to take Persia + NW Persia + Caucasus while sending another Infantry back to Egypt when it got taken by the UK for a single turn in UK6 (recaptured by Italy I6) so never losing the NO.
1 Transport! 23 IPC extra per turn for Germany.
I still think that if you focus with your buys and moves on the United Kingdom in first two German builds you are able to get similiar results.
There is no way for Italy to capture Egpyt on I2 (without lucky dice rolls) if UK retreats the fleet to the Red Sea, brings over a couple of fighters from India, has a transport in Persia, and carries the Malta inf + AA to Egpyt.
On round 2:
3 fighters, 1 Tac, 9 inf, 2 art, 1 mech, 1 tank
Germany can do an expensive air raid of Egpyt on G2 trying to remove some critical units. However that makes the game very difficult for the duration of the game.
