Going All out Hitler…

Hi y’all,

so after reading a lot in the Global-forums, I started to notice a trend of opening-move discussions.
Specifically, there seems to be some kind of consensus about operation “Sealion”: wheter or not one wants to actually go through with it, it seems beneficial to at least threaten it. So the G1 move usually consists of some version of sinking the royal navy, attacking france with ground troops and maybe Jugoslavia.
Landing one fighter in Italy, to make the English commit more material in the med, the airforce usually is all out against the RN.

But whether or not to make Sealion happen seems a much disputed question, the main cause of doubt being the russians going to town on you.

Now this is where I thought: “Why not making it preemptive and going all out hitler on the allies?”

The west is all as usual. SZ110, SZ111, maybe SZ106, Paris. But Paris wihout air and without the 3 tanks from Greater Southern Germany.
I still build AC plus 2 trannys.
But all these ground units in eastern europe doing nothing at all, it seemed kind of a waste. But what if I attacked Russia G1 too?. The natural reaction on the preparations of sealion should involve increasing pressure along the German border anyway. So why not set them back a round and also take some units down with you?

So there is 3 inf in Baltic states and 3 inf and a tac bomber in Poland. why not trade the infantry, the bomber cant reach anything else anyway.
and then there is Eastern Poland.
Only 2 inf there, but we can commit 4 infantry and 6 tanks to it. It borders 4 russian countrys, one of which is Baltic states. The remaining 3 contain 4 inf 1 art total. The counter attack on Eastern Poland therefor can consist of 4 inf, 1 art, 2 fig, 1 tac against a full force of 6 tanks and 3-4 inf(maybe lost one in original attack) which makes for a whapping 70-95% chance of all or maybe 5 tanks surviving an allout attack by the russians.
and that is committing ALL russian airforce. So the counterattack seems unprofitable.

So bottom line is:

we trade 3 german inf for 5 russian inf, we get immediate pressure on the Ukraine, therefor making the russian commit more troops to the Ukraine on defense and making the north vulnerable, projecting agression on the UK, the baltic, even Novgorod with the three transports.
I forgo taking Bulgaria for that extra defense in Eastern Poland. But then it’s go east for the infantry in europe. the 11 stack from Germany normally gives to men to western Ger, so the transports can be filled next round. Anything else needs to march towards russia.
Strategically it still forces the english to defend, since g2-3 Sealion is still not off the board, but you already have striken a blow to russia and if you dont do sealion the alternative is already well prepared.
But if Sealion comes, the germans already “gained a tempo” on them.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

TheOdor

@ChocolatePancake:

The main problem I see is that if you do go sea lion, you won’t have any immediate reinforcements available for your units in Russian territory. With what you have there initially, you won’t be able to go any deeper into Russian territory,

well depends. you are gonna have a stack of 6tanks and3-4inf in Eastern Poland, they won’t be going that far, but they put some pressure on Ukraine. Ofc he will build there but its only three units. and whats left there are 6 inf and one art. Thats no joke, but only if kept together. if the russian player spreads out, or worse yet, tries to consolidate his armies by going north, he will easily be crushed with the support of a bomber or two. and novgorod is an issue too. The transporters project an awful amount of power to the north. I’m not saying go for Moskow right there. Im saying try buy time by committing some but not all ground troops. Lots of fast movers (the tanks) that can be retreated in one round to a port for invasion purposes…

@ChocolatePancake:

and you leave the units you have there exposed to easy destruction by the Russians. The Russians will be able to build new units in Novo and Ukraine and push you back easily and you will have even less units to protect Berlin with after Sea Lion.

thats the point. I dont. The 3 inf from Poland are dead, yes. but they traded evenly, maybe even getting a hit or two in the return fires. The tanks are safe. Committing all his units at the front and his entire airforce, he has a chance of 23% of winning the battle with 0.23 Units left on average. So these units are SAFE. utterly and completely. Even a strafe doesnt hurt the tanks. And the russian “counterattack” is reduced to 14 inf, 3 art, 1 tank, 2 fig, 1 tac distributed over the new front from Novgorod to Ukraine.

And I will have traded with net gain, pushed the russians back, and won a tempo against them. I think its better to cripple the russian in advance, since its so easy. We get 20% of their western infantry for basicly nothing…

thanx for the input you guys.

I think I understand your point, argothair, but I think its less about the actual TUV-swing, but more about position. by occupying Poland, you make the Pripet Marches split the russian from turn 1 on, instead of him being able to consolidate.
That makes it impossible for the russians to rely on a simple inf-push-mechanic, because speed and maneuverability will be on your side. Plus the forces from Novgorod cant really afford to go south-west, because you have all them transports and scandinavians…
Sure you dont break russia with it, but you get the same outcome as with a G3 declaration and the tanks can be home in time for the “Sealion”-attack. (G3) and if the british don’t buckle up enough, you pummle them. I agree Sealion is close, but the threat is real. It’sonly close, if the english player goes all-out defense for the british isles…

@ColonelCarter:

Sure, E. Poland will be safe for a round if you attack G1, but if you spend 2 turns on navy and remove ~20+ ground units from Europe to capture London, Russia will be able to press back into German territory anyway. (Possibly even better, since they collect their NO for at least a turn or two and Germany won’t collect theirs for the 3 they normally would with Sea Lion)

Just a normal G1 attack on Russia (no Sea Lion threat) can be fun and refreshing and put people off balance if they’re used to G2/3s or Sea Lion strats, but in my opinion is objectively inferior to a G2 DOW.

The thing is the offensive will only cost you ~5 inf. But all the tanks can retreat for a G3 Sealion. And on top of that it forces the russians hand. Sure the 5 ipc will be hard for 1-2 turns but if the UK doesn’t defend, youll go full on Sealion. If it does, or you just don’t like the numbers, those trannys should be put to good use. take Novgorod, Archangel and just push in the North. There goes your NO. OR you consolidate, having the UK out of the picture, and just push for the caucasus. Or have the italians join in and go for the caucasus.
The basic plan is, that after a Toranto attack, the RAF will be out of position ynd youll have free reign over the waters. So you can pressure Russia all you want.

@WILD:

IDK, if you see this opening as the allies you might be inclined to not max def London. It looks like they are gunning for Moscow. Argothair who oppose this opening even said he would probably build just 3 inf +ftr for England, and an minor IC for Egypt/Mid east. Maybe if you disguise it a bit more and buy the carrier (pretty standard), plus 1 transport and save the 7 IPCs UK might be more reckless.

Thats my reasoning too. I even thought, that maybe the allies might be inclined to roll the dice and send some scrambles or just don’t take it seriously and then boom. On the other Hand, if the UK does defend, you get your time with russia. The US shouldn’t matter so much as they can be in the med by turn 2 but not safely, and by turn 3 its too little too late. So the US and UK imho should go on as if nothing out of the ordinary has happened.

@WILD:

Which brings us to Japan, should they wait so the US doesn’t get into better position?

I thought that Japan must go bonkers as well. J1 attack on all the allies. Build two trn, one mIC, and start the pummeling. go take Phillipines and Kwang and so forth. If the russian was stupid enought to leave his inf up north, just go wipe em. Moskow needs the reinforcements badly. Also there will be no Russians in China, because they are needed elsewhere. Make sure the US knows you are there. Take the minors asap. Don’t feel too threatened, because If the US doesn’t go 2*atlantic, then Germany will be unstoppable.
At least that is Japan in the scenario in my head.^^

@WILD:

Maybe strafe Yugo (one inf from Romania) to get a bigger inf stack on Romania to sell it a bit more? […] Not sure if Germany could spare a sub for sz125?

The inf is needed in Poland. It is ridiculously essential. I think its not possible. But by leaving Bulgaria for Italy to take, they can impact the south of Russia in the same way the trannys complement in the north. Two strong flanks on either side will make for a passive russian very quick, I think.

The sub depends on the outcome of SZ111. If you can survive with two subs, then go ahead. Else I dont think so.