Cont From the AAA Thread, but about warships not AA Guns

For instance, if submarines are the only units being attacked, then the destroyers should have to roll a hit to find them, then a hit to sink them, to simulate the fact submarines aren’t going to be just sitting there when a destroyer is present and waiting to be sunk!  (but said submarines don’t get to return fire, they’re busy diving for the ocean bottom!)  A la the movie Das Boot.

David Schwartzer’s World War II The Expansion rule for A&A version from Gamer’s Paradise had a search and destroy Subs phase.
Only destroyers and planes could have done it.
For every searching unit you roll 1 dice.
If you roll “1” or “2” then subs are “ping down”, if there is only plane then it is a 1 round only attack. 1 dice for every fighters and bombers.
If there is a DD then (as OOB), all DD must be destroy before subs can escape.

It was also possible for DDs to go on search and patrol in the next sea-zone, even destroying all ennemy’s subs and to come back to the original sea-zone to protect all others ships left there.

Subs were harder to find but if there is many units on search mission then it need only one success to make all units fire against subs.
Example: 3 StrB are searching: 3 rolls: “3” “4” “2”.
The 3rd find the subs, then all 3 StrBs are attacking @4.
OOB is better for Subs since it needs DD for aircraft to be able to attack them.
But it is automatic attacking.
There Don’s version requires from each DD a roll of “2” to find any.
In addition, it is only this DD that can fire at the subs even if there is 2 or more DD, only those which roll 2 or less can make an attack vs subs.
That’s the difference between DDs and Air patrol mission, in which anyone makes all planes attack 1 round.

@Cmdr:

**I was thinking the destroyers had to find the submarines and then any attacking ship that was in the sea zone or over the sea zone (airship?  Fine airplanes, better?) could fire at it.  **

Might have to include increasing destroyer base movement to 3, maybe not.�  I mean if it’s a 3, then it really shouldn’t get a bonus from being near a navy base, since it kinda always has the bonus then.

Sorry, I can’t remember exactly. I will look in the web if someone already scanned this.

“World War II Expansion rules” for Axis & Allies from Gamers Paradise.
That’s the title.
Made by Philip Schwartzer.

need to add mobile artillery

would work same as mech inf, that is, it is an artillery peice same as OOB with +1 movement and +1 cost
and like mech inf it can blitz when paired 1:1 with armour

The only naval unit i would willingly add (and even maybe) is the carrier escort unit
–a carrier with 3 movement and carriers one plane

and of course give cruisers +1 movement aswell ;)

The only naval unit i would willingly add (and even maybe) is the carrier escort unit
–a carrier with 3 movement and carriers one plane

Jeep carriers were pretty slow compared to fast carriers with cruiser hulls.

SPA: 3-2-2-5

@Imperious:

The only naval unit i would willingly add (and even maybe) is the carrier escort unit
–a carrier with 3 movement and carriers one plane

**Jeep carriers were pretty slow compared to fast carriers with cruiser hulls.**SPA: 3-2-2-5

That’s why we can make 2 differents unit of carrier able to carry only 1 plane.
1 CVLA0D1M3C10-11, the fast one 3 spaces.
And the slow one at 2 spaces:
1 CVEA0D1M2C9-10
It can works for someone willing to have a wider historical sense.

But in a strategical game level, it adds very little IMO.
That’s why merging both in a CVL unit seems more interresting to play.
It creates different opportunity while pairing it with a Cruiser HR at M3.
It is a little historical twist since only 9 CVL were built by USA.
And there was almost 60 CVE in operation in Pacific and Atlantic.

However, for gaming purpose I defend a CVL unit.
It will create two different fleet dynamics with her older sister the fleet CV unit M2.
I bet that at a cost of 10 IPCs someone will likely sink them instead of plane.
It will better recreates the higher rate of casuality amongst them.

@Cmdr:

Higher rate of casualty AND mini-fleets.� � I love to see little tiny fleets of units out performing tasks and you really don’t see them with the way the game is set up now.� �

Wasn’t it pretty standard, in the real war, to have different flotillas in different island groups at the same time?� � So while someone may be fighting in the Caroline Islands others may be fighting in New Zealand and yet others in the Aleutian Islands (yes those three didn’t happen simultaneously, that’s why I chose those three!)

If all those fast cruiser moving 3 spaces are just following the main fleet moving at 2 spaces, what is the interest of this HR and why would it increases buying of cruisers?

So I’m coming back with something else to increase both buying of cruisers and BB.

Why not considered the combines arms (like many other units)?
Let’s say that when 1 cruiser is inside a fleet with 1 Battleship, this fleet gain somekind of AA fire.
I think about 1:2 ratio.
1 battleship gives up to 2 cruisers 1AA@1/each cruiser on defense (max 1 roll/plane of course).
It is more historical, since I learned that to protect carriers against planes, their was an inner circle of battleships then an outer circle of cruisers.

So in a sense it is both cruiser and battleship which provides AA screen.
A basic fleet to protect against an attacking fleet carrier of 2 aircrafts will be:
1 BB + 2 Cruiser, then each attacking planes will have to survive 1 AA fire before attacking any target.

It will create an incentive to buy BB along the first cruiser.
Anyone will like to have this AA screen I think.

We’ve been floating around on the 1914 discussion @LHGD that Battlships cannot hit submarines, changing significantly the balance of naval warfare. This is certainly more historical, though it makes naval combat a little more difficult to perform; for example can BBs hit transports whiloe there are still enemy subs?

@Flashman:

We’ve been floating around on the 1914 discussion @LHGD that Battlships cannot hit submarines, changing significantly the balance of naval warfare. This is certainly more historical, though it makes naval combat a little more difficult to perform; for example can BBs hit transports whiloe there are still enemy subs?

I like this

It is an especially good an inventive way to fix BBs in 1914

But not sure if it would work as well in the rest of A&A

Yes make a new thread on that. That is a good idea actually.

@Cmdr:

I was thinking Cruisers and Destroyers going 3 to follow along escort carriers (1 fighter, move 3) so you have fast fleets and slow fleets.

Yes many will just use fast fleets to speed reinforcements up, but there’s some play in there, I think, to use your fast fleets for long range strikes and convoy raids.

I didn’t agree about this for now. From my little scope on ship type of WWII, destroyers and destroyers escort didn’t have the speed and range of cruisers.  They probably can be as fast as cruiser but didn’t have the autonomy.

The challenge I implied was only to use lightcarrier as Anti-sub weapon while cruiser alongside of CVL have the punch on offense and defense.  Transport were still slow at 2 spaces and same thing for DD.
(Let aside the historical problem, creating a DD unit A2D2M3C10 will interfere with the purpose of the new CVL.)

In addition, this DD unit will be much deadlier (than CVL) to subs since Subs  won’t be able to gain initiative and attack, Subs will be comdamned to defend @1.

I think it also that OOB DD will be less interesting and many will pay the additionnal cost to gain the 3 spaces.

@Cmdr:

I was thinking the destroyers had to find the submarines and then any attacking ship that was in the sea zone or over the sea zone (airship?� � Fine airplanes, better?) could fire at it.� �

Might have to include increasing destroyer base movement to 3, maybe not.� � I mean if it’s a 3, then it really shouldn’t get a bonus from being near a navy base, since it kinda always has the bonus then.

If BB are too big, we can limit the “search” to DDs, and the “destroy” to all DDs, subs and cruisers only.
So BB could defend @4 against subs but cannot attack them.
Rise the question: when their is only subs and BB, what can we do?

I found also strange that a sub first strike against a fleet, do no damage and all ships fireback since BBs always take the first hit.

I wonder if we should just introduce that special rule for subs only when a sub get 1 hit on a First/surprise strike, then any CV or BB chose as a casuality is immediatly sink.

What is your opinion?

@Cmdr:

Why are we limiting BBs from defending against submarines?

**Maybe limit battleships so that they cannot ATTACK submarines, but can still DEFEND against an attack by them?**�  **I just don’t see a battleship being sunk by a lone wolf submarine like transports can.**�  They’d do something, you know?� Â

Or if they cannot defend, perhaps (similar to the rules for Submarines when attacked by units they couldn’t defend against in classic) let the attacker get one shot in, then the defender may retreat one sea zone if there exists a sea zone in which they can retreat without initiating combat or violating canal rules?�  (Remember, in classic if you attacked a submarine with a fighter, if the fighter missed, the submarine could retreat a space, since it was not allowed to return fire, and submerging was not yet a rule.)

As you can read on my post I agree with you on the first point.

I don’t know for BB, but the heavy carrier Taiho was sink by 1 torpedo salvo shooted from a single USA Sub, in the Marianna’s battle near Saipan.

We can consider from a game perspective, that USA was on offense and Japan on defense.

So, it just show that some big ships can be sink by some lucky Subs which passed through a defective screen of DDs and escort ships.

Taihō (大鳳?) was an aircraft carrier of the Imperial Japanese Navy during World War II. With a heavily armored hull and flight deck (a first for any Japanese carrier), she represented a major departure in Japanese carrier design and was expected to not only survive multiple bomb, torpedo or shell hits but also continue fighting effectively. Her name means “Great Phoenix”.

Built by Kawasaki at Kobe, she was laid down on 10 July 1941, launched almost two years later on 7 April 1943 and finally commissioned on 7 March 1944. She sank on 19 June 1944 during the Battle of the Philippine Sea after suffering a single torpedo hit from the American submarine USS Albacore, due to explosions resulting from poor damage control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Taihō

Only one sub was ever sunk by a BB:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SM_U-29_(Germany)

In 1914 terms, this would give cruisers a definitive role in screening BBs from subs.

Yes, it would mean a lot more subs in the game but that is historical - naval commanders were in a state of panic of what to do about submarine; they seemed to make BBs obsolete.

One suggestion I’ve made is that you simply cannot have Battleships in a fleet without escorts (i.e. cruisers or destroyers if they’re available), much like you cannot have tanks without infantry.
So BBs can take a hit for the team, but they cannot be left as the last unit. Hence, you always have a chance against subs.

One question raised by the idea is:

If BBs cannot hit subs, then can they hit transports even if there are still enemy subs around? I say - yes!

BBs can’t hit subs certainly seems to create a more natural balance between the naval units in 1914; cruisers have a proper role, subs are now the deadly weapon they were instead of cheap cannon fodder, and BBs are not the overpowered monsters they so far seem to be.

I can’t speak for WWII versions; air power is the decisive element here that makes it a different ball game.