Tweaking fleets to historical ratios

The map in playtest 9°

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@Kriegmeister:

My friends and I played the Anniversary Edition for the first time yesterday. We really like the new map and units, but we sort of agreed that the way destroyers negate the subs’ sneak attack has “nerfed” the subs somewhat. We also felt that Europe’s Soft Underbelly is a little too true, as the Allies quickly found this to be a misnomer.

As things stand, one DD can neutralise all the subs in that sea zone. We think that in such a scenario, the DD should be treated a bit like artillery supports infantry; that is, for the defender, one DD can engage one sub, while permitting one friendly unit in that sea zone to engage (in this case, whichever has the highest defensive die roll).

So say two German subs decide to attack in a sea zone containing one British destroyer, one CC, and one BB. The DD can defend against one sub, and permits anti-sub operations by the battleship (because it has the highest defensive roll. The second sub retains its normal sneak attack as per the usual rules (one roll at the outset of the first turn).

In the event of a CV with embarked fighters, we argued BOTH fighters can roll for each DD defending, and that should the CV be sunk by a sneak attack, the fighters in this instance are permitted to recover on any friendly territory or CV within range. Otherwise, if a DD is not present the normal rules apply (and the planes go down with the ship, having not been alerted to the presence of subs).

On the attack, one DD permits one other surface ship to attack one sub. In the case of aircraft, one DD can support TWO planes in any combination (2 fighters, 2 bombers, or one of each). I welcome your thoughts. We’re going to try this the next time we play.

Hi Kriegmeister, welcome to AAE!

Yes, DDs are the naval Super Unit! They are overly strong in the naval calculus- not only due to their “1 for all” sub-canceling craziness, but also because they destroy (ehhh??) every other naval unit (except attacking Subs) on an equal IPC basis. Very strange (from a game mechanics point of view) decisions were made regarding the naval cost structure, whether due to historical justification/railroading, personal disdain for certain units and strategies on the part of the designer, or just a lack of math.

Per the OOB rules, the one decision you always ask when buying a non-destroyer ship is whether the special ability you’re getting out of it (e.g. amphibious bombardment) is worth what you’re losing (naval supremacy) by not simply buying destroyers instead.

So yes, reducing DD’s sub-canceling ability to 1:1 or 1:2 is a common house rule to weaken the unit somewhat, although it does not address the other strength issues above.  It sounds like that’s essentially what your rule is doing: making DDs cancel subs at a 1(+1):2 ratio when you have another surface ship (per destroyer) in the combat, or a 1(+2):3 ratio when you have another two planes (per destroyer) in the combat.

I would suggest simplifying it to a 1:2/1:3 ratio, straight up. I’d also take away any extra boosts for planes (which already punch above their weight in naval combat).  Note that any variation of this rule makes Subs (already the most efficient attacking naval unit) even stronger in all configurations, which may be an undesirable outcome. The usefulness of all house rules depends on the proclivities of the players using them.

My preference for my (mostly solo) games is to leave the DD’s universal sub-canceling abilities alone (or fix it at 1:3) while re-balancing the cost structure to remove them from the ‘Outright Naval Supremacy’ throne, which I think should belong to BBs and 2-ftr CVs while leaving a budget-option niche for CAs. But that’s just me.

raises glass
“To the elusive ideal of balanced fleets and a balanced game!”

Good thoughts, keep the ideas coming! Welcome to the Forums!

@Imperious:

The map should be marked for possible landing sites. It is not a fact that major landings could take place “anywhere”.
True but it is too much zoom-in tactical level geography.
Let’s suppose the amphibious assault is made in an appropriate places.
The bad or good luck of the first roll of dices in combat is making for a good or bad landing place.

First, the attacker should only be able to attack with infantry only on the first round ( and air units). This would be rolled after SB is performed.
AAA fire then Shore Bombardment are the first two steps. At a tactical level, artillery and armor have a bad moment to pass through during landing phase. The issue is to figure it all at strategical level and keep balance.
I suggested this penalty can be enough:
instead of saying all A1 for the first round of an Amph. Assault
Just say all attacking ground units get -1A to a minimum of A1, for the first round.
Hence, Artillery get A1.
But, at least Armor can get A2.
And according to this HR, even an Inf getting A2 for being paired with Art is reduced to A1.  
But, at a strategical level, the SB can give a little support to Infantry unit trying to land.
That’s why:

During the first round of an Amph. Ass.
Destroyer, on a 1:1 basis, give +1A boost to 1 Infantry unit.
Cruiser,  on a 1:1 basis, give +1A boost to 1 Infantry unit, in addition to the shore bombardment.
Battleship, on a 1:2 basis, give +1A, to up to 2 Infantry units, in addition to the shore bombardment.

So the warships heavy guns can make a difference (even Destroyer’s one), on landing round.

Second, Defending Infantry and Artillery should fire preemptively ( loses taken first do not fire in subsequent rounds)
This is a tough one, do we give it to Artillery unit only or to both units?
Here I followed Razor and also you, at the strategical level, and for balance (too much Inf vs Art), and for simplicity and also because 1914 give it only to Artillery unit. And it will be a weaker ones however:
All Artillery units get a preemptive strike (like subs) against incoming units.

Third, all remaining attacking units roll, then remaining

The attacker should be able to retreat, however all mech units are converted into infantry ( they leave the beaches with equipment…ala Dunkirk)
That one is new. It is alien to A&A system to convert 1 unit into another.
However, a retreat possibility could be interesting…
But usually the better units will survived last. This means it will probably be armor or artillery…

Instead, it can be something like this:
If amphibious assault units needs to retreat (at the beginning of the round), attacker must loose 1 Armor unit or 1 Art unit before any other 1 casualty.
Basically, attacker must loose 1 additional ground unit (the costlier and valuable one), and this unit cannot fire, then return the surviving units on landing barge (transports).
On most occasion this will mean 1 armor unit, an A3D3, 6 IPCs unit.

Thanks for this idea about amphibious assault retreat.

It can even more create an incentive for the defender, to throw an air/naval assault on transports to get ride of the surviving retreating units. Rarely see, ground troops going into the bottom of the ocean with transports units.

I will summarize 3 ways of doing G40 SBR with Fgs escort and interceptor which could be use as 3 different historical tactics by the attacker trying to whether reduce the enemy’s air power or the IC production while better protecting StBs.

First, is A) the Close-Escort Mission, which is done as OOB SBR.

Second, is B) the Offensive Counter-Air Mission, which gives Fgs A1 first strike and D1 but an opportunity to roll a second time against bombers in A-to-A dogfight.

Third, is C) the Night Bombing Mission, in which Fgs units cannot participate neither offense nor defense.

A) Close-Escort Mission, as OOB
Air-to-Air phase
All attacking planes (Fg,TcB, StB) inside roll A@1.
All defending Fgs roll D@1.
Remove casualties.

Bombing phase
Proceed to SBR over IC, NB or AB.
AAA fires @1 against StB and TcB
Then roll damage as OOB: StB D6+2, TcB D6.

B) the Offensive Counter-Air Mission, Fgs are actively chasing intercepting Fgs
Air-to-Air phase
First cycle:
All attacking Fgs can roll A@1. Remove casualties.
All other attacking planes (TcBs, StBs) roll A@1.
All defending Fgs roll D@1.
Remove casualties.

Second cycle:
Then, defending Fgs roll D@1 a second time inside the A-to-A phase.
And all hits in this second cycle are allocated first to bombers, if any. Remove casualties.
All surviving attacking Fgs can now roll A@1 in this second cycle. Remove casualties.

Bombing phase
Proceed to SBR over IC, NB or AB.
AAA fires @1 against StB and TcB
Then roll damage as OOB: StB D6+2, TcB D6.

C) the Night Bombing Mission

Night Bombing phase
Proceed directly to SBR over IC, NB or AB.

AAA fires @1/D12 against StB and TcB or
@Baron:

“Historical” light projector “search and spot” in the night sky:
Each StB/TcB is spotted on a 3 or less.

Then roll to A@1 on spotted StB with AA gun: on “1” roll a spotted StB/TcB is destroyed.
(Work as the usual in-built AAA in IC.)

All surviving StBs bombard roll for damage: (1D6+2)/2 rounded down against IC.

All surviving TcBs bombard roll for damage (1D6)/2 rounded down, minimum 1 IPC, against IC.

@Baron:

Trying to depict the two escorting fighters tactics with an additional HR inside the actual G40 OOB SBR escort and interception rules, I come to this:
It would be an attacker’s choice whether he chooses the close-escort mission or an Offensive Counter-Air mission.

Close-escort mission:
When playing as OOB SBR (all @1), it is like Fgs are providing close-escort to bombers.

Offensive Counter-Air mission version A:
Air-to-Air combat phase in SBR with Fgs actively chasing intercepting Fgs :
All attacking Fgs can roll A@1. Remove casualties.
All other planes (TcBs, StBs and defending Fgs) roll A/D @1. Remove casualties.
Then, defending Fgs roll D@1 a second cycle inside the A-to-A phase.
And all hits in this second cycle are allocated to bombers. Remove casualties.

Proceed to SBR over IC, NB or AB.
AAA fires against StB and TcB.
Then roll damage as OOB.

I think it is a way to simulate the two tactics at a Strategical level game.
It can give a better historical feel and variation of attacking SBR strategy, at least on this point, than just the actual OOB.
Attacking Fighters get a preemptive strike, and any hit is also a way of protecting bombers,
while defending Fgs get special treatment on the second cycle: a second chance to make a hit @1 on bombers specifically.

In addition, maybe the comparison can provide us a way to explain why Fgs are not better than bombers and stay A/D @1:

the escorts are restricted in their role, they have limited ability to score hits, however, by staying close to the bombers they make it more likely that they will be taken as a casualty, the losing player gets to decide their losses.

If on the other hand, the escorts are allowed to pursue interceptors, they are more effective at shooting them down, but in that case, they are not as effective at protecting the bombers, therefore, the interceptors get to choose their hits.

On one part, we can say that for escorting Fgs providing cover impaired all of them, moving at a slower pace and keeping an eye on bombers.
On the other part, defending interceptors are also somewhat impaired by the defensive formation of Bombers and Fgs, so they didn’t get any advantage of the “flying over homeland territory” would normally provide against less manoeuvrable target.
So, after all, Fgs get A1D1 while the rest of TcBs and StBs just getting A1 but D0.
(And based upon IPC cost, it is just enough to say a Fg unit is slightly better than the rest.)

In summary, about Offensive Counter-Air mission :
The first cycle is a regular for defending planes, because they have to scramble and can be caught off guard by attacking Fgs. They get the superiority once in the air.

The first cycle of SBR interception phase is as OOB, except for attacking Fgs.
The second cycle is for surviving defending Fgs which get an advantage since there is no close-escort Fgs for Bombers.

In addition, this can provide a distinctive ability toward Fgs vs TcBs.

This HR was only a way to depict in game term this historical tactics, but if there is already a way to rationalize it inside OOB rules, feel free to develop it, so it can add a layer of historical depiction and feeling toward Fighter unit.

EDIT:
Here is another way of depicting this Offensive Counter Air-Mission version B:

What could happened historically?
A typical example from the Battle of Britain:
A flight of Ju88, He111 and Do17 Bombers sent in to bomb British ABs with a group of 109’s in support.
A group of Spitfires and Hurricanes comes up to intercept.
The 109s jump the interceptors.
The interceptors try to blow by the escorts and get at the bombers.

Escorts are flying in ahead of the Bombers and meet the interceptors before the wing of Bombers.

Escorts and Interceptors fight one round.
Escorts and interceptors roll on A/D@1. Remove casualties.
Then, escorting and intercepting Fgs and Bombers all roll on A/D@1. Remove casualties, but Bombers are taken as casualties.
Then, AAA fire, remove casualties.
Proceed to bombing damage.

@Imperious:

Ok if you want more units make it basic:

3 Carriers: CVB, CV, and CVL
2 Cruisers: BC and CA
2 Destroyers: DD and DE
2 battleships: BB, BBB

CVB= 3 planes, 3 hits, 2-3-3-
CV= OOB
CL= 1 hit, 1 plane, 0-1-3-
BC= 3-3-3-2 hits, 16 cost, 3 SB
CA= OOB
DD=OOB
DE= preemptive strike negated, plus boosts each transport to 1 defense ( no more one sub kills all thing) 1-2-3-7
BB=oob
BBB= 3 hits, 5-5-3-24, sb at 5

I don’t know if this hypothetical Armored cruiser CA will be born someday and can be useful.
But if the case, the extra hit should cost 25% of base price of OOB Cruiser (C Light/Heavy). If BB A4D4, 1hit 2=16 IPCs1.25=20 IPCs  2 hits. Which means 3 IPCs for 1.25% of 12 IPCs.
CA A3D3M3C15 2 hits, SBombard 1@3. vs
CB Battlecruiser A4D4M3C16 1hit, SBombard 1@4.
Will it makes both more viable unit vs nearer cost: 2DDs, A4D4 (2 hits) 16 IPCs?
But CB is still different from a M2 BB, with 2 hits.
Same guns but no the same armored bulkhead. Jus 1 little hit and it is over.

It is a SBR attack and you get one such attack per turn with bombers.

Interesting addition of Communist Chinese forces.

once you got the rules worked out, it will fly really fast. you still have lots of questions so well address them here and get you going. Tekkyy will make clarifications when issues warrant them.