Tweaking fleets to historical ratios

[oztea]

Perhaps allow ships to be built on land territories as an option. So you can build up a fleet in safety.
While on land, it can’t be attacked, it also can’t move any farther than into the adjacent sea zone.

Likewise, if you lose that land territory, you lose that ship as well.
You could start with more ships on the board, if you move some on to land (imagine they are in a dry dock)

I don’t think I would allow ships to WILLINGLY move on to land, but only allow new ships to be built there.

[Imperious Leader]

Well you don’t need to use the language “ships on land” just ships in port. If the attached land area is taken the ships are dislodged in the adjacent SZ.

[oztea]

I guess saving IPCs is how you build a bigger fleet. Sit on a bunch of money, then plop out a bunch of boats.

An easy way to lose the game.

[almashir]

Don’t the minefield rules already effectively protect ships next to their home port?  Or do you think a 1 in 6 chance of losing a ship during movement is an insufficient deterrent?  I suppose you could also give ships “in port” a defensive bonus or some sort.  Maybe defending cruisers take two hits to destroy, and battleships three?  Or, if that is too powerful, perhaps the port acts as a naval version of a tank, and the first hit each round of combat against the defender is ignored?

[JonnieMav]

@xxstefanx:

If you want to expand the history lesson you can also discuss LOCATION!

Example UK:
-> The Indian fleet did not possess any DNs!
-> UK sent a big pre-DN-fleet in the Meditteranean for Gallipoli, the main Grand Fleet was stationed in Scapa Flow.

So - of course - no Indian DN!
One DN piece (representing the Pre-DNs) in the Med en route to Alexandria, 2 or 3 DNs depending on how many you want to give them in the Firth of Forth.

History & geography!

Just so you know, Scapa Flow is right in the middle of the Orkney Isles at the north point of Scotland, the Firth of Forth is the mouth of the River Forth at the north end of Edinburgh.

[Imperious Leader]

Don’t the minefield rules already effectively protect ships next to their home port?

They really don’t, all they do is provide ‘road apples’ for enemy fleets

[KimRYoung]

@almashir:

I was thinking something along the lines of this.  Note that I cut the number of German subs in half (They had less than 30 when the war started).  I also put one of their cruisers off the coast of Africa (This represents ships they had there plus the West Indies, as well as the Far East Squadron, which historically made its way to the Atlantic to cause mischief).  I also gave the Germans a transport, because it seems implausible they wouldn’t have one.  I did not do likewise for the US, since they would not yet have paid the cost of diverting civlian ships to military use.  I also subtracted 1 British cruiser and half the US Navy to represent units assigned to the Pacific.  Does anyone see any obvious game breakers here?

Austria-Hungary
• Sea Zone 18: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
Russian Empire
• Sea Zone 12: 1 Battleship
• Sea Zone 21: 1 Cruiser
Germany
• Sea Zone 5: 1 Submarine
• Sea Zone 7: 1 Submarine
• Sea Zone 10: 3 Battleships, 2 Cruisers, 1 Transport
• Sea Zone 24:  1 Cruiser
France
• Sea Zone 15: 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
• Sea Zone 16: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 2 Transports
British Empire
• Sea Zone 2: 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
• Sea Zone 9: 4 Battleships, 3 Cruisers, 1 Transport
• Sea Zone 19: 2 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
• Sea Zone 29: 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
Ottoman Empire
• Sea Zone 20: 1 Cruiser
Italy
• Sea Zone 17: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
United States
• Sea Zone 1: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser

Britain did not have twice as many Dreadnaughts as Germany.

Kim

[oztea]

What about this?

Austria-Hungary
•  Sea Zone 18: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
Russian Empire
•  Sea Zone 12: 1 Battleship, 1 Sub, 1 Transport
•  Sea Zone 21: 1 Cruiser, 1 Submarine
Germany
•  Sea Zone 5: 1 Submarine
•  Sea Zone 7: 2 Submarines
•  Sea Zone 10: 2 Battleships, 2 Cruisers, 1 Transport
•  Sea Zone 11: 1 Submarine
•  Sea Zone 24:  1 Cruiser
France
•  Sea Zone 15: 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
•  Sea Zone 16: 1 Submarine, 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
British Empire
•  Sea Zone 2: 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
•  Sea Zone 9: 2 Battleships, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
•  Sea Zone 19: 1 Battleship, , 1 Transport
•  Sea Zone 29: 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
•  Sea Zone 4: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser
•  Sea Zone 8: 1 Transport
Ottoman Empire
•  Sea Zone 20: 1 Cruiser, 1 Submarine
Italy
•  Sea Zone 17: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
United States
•  Sea Zone 1: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser

[xxstefanx]

@JonnieMav

Correct!
Just got away with my own game in which the whole SZ on the British North-East Coast is named “Firth of Forth” including Scapa FLow.
Sorry for confusion!

[KimRYoung]

@oztea:

What about this?

Austria-Hungary
•   Sea Zone 18: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
Russian Empire
•   Sea Zone 12: 1 Battleship, 1 Sub, 1 Transport
•   Sea Zone 21: 1 Cruiser, 1 Submarine
Germany
•   Sea Zone 5: 1 Submarine
•   Sea Zone 7: 2 Submarines
•   Sea Zone 10: 2 Battleships, 2 Cruisers, 1 Transport
•   Sea Zone 11: 1 Submarine
•   Sea Zone 24:  1 Cruiser
France
•   Sea Zone 15: 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
•   Sea Zone 16: 1 Submarine, 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
British Empire
•   Sea Zone 2: 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
•   Sea Zone 9: 2 Battleships, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
•   Sea Zone 19: 1 Battleship, , 1 Transport
•   Sea Zone 29: 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
•   Sea Zone 4: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser
•   Sea Zone 8: 1 Transport
Ottoman Empire
•   Sea Zone 20: 1 Cruiser, 1 Submarine
Italy
•   Sea Zone 17: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
United States
•   Sea Zone 1: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser

Turkey has a sub and England has none? I don’t think so. the Turks had only a single sub the entire war. Britain had 74 subs when the war started. England HAS to have some subs represented.

The ratio of UK Dreadnaughts to Germans should be 3:2

Kim

[almashir]

"Britain did not have twice as many Dreadnaughts as Germany.

Kim"

Hi, Kim,

Yes, that’s true. It was more like 3-2 in August 1914 (34-21).  But they had almost twice as many pre-Dreadnaught battleships (41-22).  It all depends on how much you want to weigh pre-DN vs. post-DN for combat power.  I arbitrarily assumed a pre-DN to be about 60% as effective as a post-DN.

[KimRYoung]

@almashir:

"Britain did not have twice as many Dreadnaughts as Germany.

Kim"

Hi, Kim,

Yes, that’s true. It was more like 3-2 in August 1914 (34-21).  But they had almost twice as many pre-Dreadnaught battleships (41-22).  It all depends on how much you want to weigh pre-DN vs. post-DN for combat power.  I arbitrarily assumed a pre-DN to be about 60% as effective as a post-DN.

England pulled out most all her pre-dreads from first line service (though they did get used in the med). At Jutland, the Germans did bring 6 PD’s, but there expected value was so low they were called “5 minute ships” because that’s what they considered there life expectancy in a stand up fight.

A PD usually only had 4 main guns compared to the 10-12 guns on a Dread. At best, considering there very slow speed and inferior armor (and useless secondary guns) I would only represent them as a “battleship” at about 20-25% (and that’s a gimme).

If you figure at that, the ratio would be more like 8 to 5 or 9 to 5, which would be around a 3.5 to 2 ratio.

For play balance, you need to make that 3 to 2.

I would put UK at 3, Germany at 2, and everyone else at 0-1 (considering some US ships in the Pacific). For sure the French DO NOT have more then the Germans!

Kim

[Imperious Leader]

UK:
Dreadnought 22
Pre-Dreadnought 40
Battle-cruiser  9
Armored Cruiser  34
Protected Cruiser  52
Other Cruiser  35
Destroyer  221
Submarine  73

Germany:
Dreadnought  15
Pre-Dreadnought  22
Battle-cruiser  5
Armored Cruiser  7
Protected Cruiser  17
Other Cruiser  16
Destroyer  90
Submarine  31

62 to 37

[KimRYoung]

@Imperious:

UK:
Dreadnought 22
Pre-Dreadnought 40
Battle-cruiser  9
Armored Cruiser  34
Protected Cruiser  52
Other Cruiser  35
Destroyer  221
Submarine  73

Germany:
Dreadnought  15
Pre-Dreadnought  22
Battle-cruiser  5
Armored Cruiser  7
Protected Cruiser  17
Other Cruiser  16
Destroyer  90
Submarine  31

62 to 37

You need to include battlecruisers in with the total of “battleships” as these are just fast dreadnaughts.  A pre-dreadnaught is a floating tin can that is as obsolete as a bi-plane was in WWII.

Kim

[almashir]

Okay, so it’s a matter of what the proper scale should be.  Are we all agreed on the following?

1.  The British should have more battleships than the Germans - roughly 50% more if you are ignoring pre-DNs, and maybe 60-70% more if you aren’t.  All the British DNs were stationed near the British Isles, and since these would have comprised the vast majority of ships involved in a Jutland-style scenario, the 2-3 German-British ratio should hold in sea zones 9 and 10.  As for the British pre-DNs in the Med, they could perhaps be represented by a cruiser, if that is necessary for balance and/or historical aesthetics.  :-D

2.  The Germans should have at least one more battleship than the French.

3.  Everyone (except Turkey) should have at least one battleship.

4.  The Germans had more cruisers than anyone except the British, and the British had about 3 times as many as the Germans.  The French had about half as many as the Germans, but about twice as much as anyone else (except the US, although half the US cruisers would be in the Pacific).

Okay, so let’s work on the ratios.  Turkey gets one cruiser.  Assume Russia, Austria, Italy, and USA each get 1 battleship and 1 cruiser.  France would then get 1 battleship and two cruisers.

So this means Germany gets 2 battleships and 3-4 cruisers (with one of the cruisers starting in the South Atlantic).  Let’s call it 3 for now.  So in Sea Zone 10, Germany has 2 battleships and two cruisers, with another cruiser in Sea Zone 22, 23, or 24.

This means Britain gets 3 battleships in Sea Zone 9.  At a 3-to-1 ratio to German cruisers, this would mean 9 British cruisers.  For the moment, let’s call the British pre-DNs in the Med a cruiser instead of a BB.  So that makes 10 cruisers.  Now it’s just a matter of where to put them.  Maybe:

Sea Zone 9:  3 battleships, 4 cruisers, and 1 sub
Sea Zone 19:  3 cruisers
Sea Zone 29:  2 cruisers
Sea Zone 2:  1 cruiser

I would also cut the German subs down to 2-3.  The British started with more than twice as many subs as the Germans had.  However, I only gave them 1 sub because of the paragraph below.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/british_submarines_and_the_.htm
“Nine submarine flotillas were established in 1914 and based on the east coast of Britain. Four of these flotillas were patrol flotillas while the other five were used for coastal defence. Out of Britain’s 86 submarines at the start of World War One, 76 were used for coastal defence (including a number built specifically for overseas ventures). That they stayed as coastal protection vessels was an indication of just how much the powers that be both in the Royal Navy and the government feared invasion.”

[Imperious Leader]

Well just let German subs to move farther than 4 spaces from original starting port. The others are stuck with 2 or 3 spaces from original port. Also, give a discount -1 for German subs and increase the effect they have with USW…again just them.

[TheVenocWarlord]

This should be in the House Rules section.

[Imperious Leader]

yep