Unrestricted Submarine Warfare

oztea’s suggestion seems like a good start - But I also feel that declaring Unrestricted submarine warfare shouldn’t automatically bring the US into the game either. I’ve seen various tracks proposed on the US entry, and USW should certainly influence that, but not automatically cause the US to declare war, since it was just over two months between Germany declaring USW a second time in February 1917 and the US entry in April (also thanks to The Note). Maybe this could be tweaked slightly so that:

1. Roll of 1 or 2 does IPC damage to UK, roll again for amount:
    a. 1-3: 1 IPC
    b. 4-6: 2 IPCs (could also do 1-2:1 ; 3-4: 2 ; 5-6: 3 IPC, but one sub being responsible for 3 IPCs of damage seems a bit much)

2. Unrestricted submarine warfare: Roll of 1,2, or 3 does IPC damage to UK AND US
    a. 1-3: 1 IPC (same as above)
    b. " (same as above)
    c. US only receives 1 IPC damage per hit, while not at war. Once the US enters the war, roll for IPC damage same as UK

The US should roll a die on turn 3.
If it rolls a 1 it goes to war.

If it rolls the current turn number, it goes to war. However.
-1 to your roll if USW has been declared
-1 to your roll if the CP have taken an allied capital
-2 after turn 4

@Squadron:

oztea’s suggestion seems like a good start - But I also feel that declaring Unrestricted submarine warfare shouldn’t automatically bring the US into the game either. I’ve seen various tracks proposed on the US entry, and USW should certainly influence that, but not automatically cause the US to declare war, since it was just over two months between Germany declaring USW a second time in February 1917 and the US entry in April (also thanks to The Note). Maybe this could be tweaked slightly so that:

1. Roll of 1 or 2 does IPC damage to UK, roll again for amount:
     a. 1-3: 1 IPC
     b. 4-6: 2 IPCs (could also do 1-2:1 ; 3-4: 2 ; 5-6: 3 IPC, but one sub being responsible for 3 IPCs of damage seems a bit much)

2. Unrestricted submarine warfare: Roll of 1,2, or 3 does IPC damage to UK AND US
     a. 1-3: 1 IPC (same as above)
     b. " (same as above)
     c. US only receives 1 IPC damage per hit, while not at war. Once the US enters the war, roll for IPC damage same as UK

My suggestion:

When it comes to Incomephase of UK/US, the Germany Player gets for every Sub that is located in the SZ 2,7,8 one dice.
He throws them all together and the highest result will be the IPCs taken away from UK/US.
The damage that results from USW can be max 6 (12 for UK and US together) IPC per turn, which is a good simulation I think.

@Auztria:

The Allies can easily overcome the loss of a few IPCs. After all, at start, Germany’s only got the four submarines, so that’s a maximum of 4 IPCs lost- if all the submarines hit. It would have been much better to guarantee a hit for each submarine and roll a d6 for each sub to determine how many IPCs are lost. That could be actual economic strangulation as opposed to a minor inconvenience, which is what USW is under the current rules. No German player with the slightest amount of strategic sense would ever declare USW at least until the United States are at war already.

I entirely agree!

@oztea:

Because by some twist of fate both those powers could be reduced to 0 IPCs if Germany builds 20 subs. However outlandish that seems.

Yes, but you’d first need to get them into the applicable sea zones.

Declaring USW does not automatically cause the US to enter the war!

Reread the rules;  it is only when the USA loses an IPC from USW does the USA enter the war.

So the CP may declare USW at any time,

but just attack everyone else not the USA!

@Flashman:

There’s no point. They cannot use USW to attack UK income without doing the same to the USA.

All you could do is hope for a miss when you attack the US, but that sounds like a very dubious strategy.

I feel, as someone else suggested above, that no 1 or 2 should be needed to actually cause hits. Probably an automatic hit and a result of 1 or 2 causing a 1 IPC loss, a result of 3-4 a 2 IPC loss and a result of 5-6 a 3IPC loss would better simulate USW.

Or just each sub causes 2 damage.
Damage capped at 10 per turn.

Or do it with the same mechanic as in Global 1940, at least that would be consistant.

Kim

Consistency isn’t Larry’s style

@Squadron:

oztea’s suggestion seems like a good start - But I also feel that declaring Unrestricted submarine warfare shouldn’t automatically bring the US into the game either. I’ve seen various tracks proposed on the US entry, and USW should certainly influence that, but not automatically cause the US to declare war, since it was just over two months between Germany declaring USW a second time in February 1917 and the US entry in April (also thanks to The Note). Maybe this could be tweaked slightly so that:

1. Roll of 1 or 2 does IPC damage to UK, roll again for amount:
     a. 1-3: 1 IPC
     b. 4-6: 2 IPCs (could also do 1-2:1 ; 3-4: 2 ; 5-6: 3 IPC, but one sub being responsible for 3 IPCs of damage seems a bit much)

2. Unrestricted submarine warfare: Roll of 1,2, or 3 does IPC damage to UK AND US
     a. 1-3: 1 IPC (same as above)
     b. " (same as above)
     c. US only receives 1 IPC damage per hit, while not at war. Once the US enters the war, roll for IPC damage same as UK

Option 1 is the same and easier if you say that a throw of one deducts one IPC and a two deducts two. Saves a throw of the dice!

@Flashman:

From Larry’s report on Germany:

Germany begins the game with no less than 4 submarines. None of the other powers have even one. One way for the German player to exploit this obvious advantage, and the rules help him or her right along, is to declare that Germany will begin unrestricted submarine warfare. This can be done at any time during the game. Once this is declared, Germany will be considered to be conducting submarine attacks against both the United States� and the British Empire�s shipping routes. During the US and British player’s’ Collect Income phases, the German player will roll one die for each German submarine in certain sea zones (there are 3 of them, and they are sea zones 2, 7, and 8- strategically located, I assure you.). For each roll of 1 or 2, the attacked power will deduct 1 IPC from the income it normally collects during the phase. You might ask why Germany would not immediately and always conduct Unrestricted Submarine Warfare. Well… following Germany�s declared Unrestricted Submarine Warfare the United States will immediately enter the war! That might be reason enough to force the German player to wait a few turns before turning the subs loose.

Does anyone else think this is rather weak? Scarcely worth diverting subs from attacking Allied surface fleets.

I might consider upping the damage done, and adding more SZ route targets:

The attached example has one target for each Ally, plus the target in SZ 7 which effects all Allies.

Agreed - it is a horrible move.  So what if the Germans have 4 subs?  On the odds, they are unlikely to get more than 1 or 2 hits.  So you bring the U.S. into the war for only $1 or $2 IPCs?  No way is that worth it.  Maybe if you could make it more costly, a la the strategic bombing raids from WWII 1942, where the cost is what you roll on the dice.  But even then, it’s quite a risky proposition.  Oh, and don’t think that you’ll get to do this over several turns.  If the Allied player is paying attention at all your fleet will be destroyed by the end of round 2, if not round 1.

@oztea:

Or just each sub causes 2 damage.
Damage capped at 10 per turn.

Yes, I like this one too. Simpe yet effective and not sooo powerful (like heavy bombers in e.g. the original A&A game) that is becomes game breaking.

Using rough and slightly fake probability math, it takes 3 subs on average to do 2 total damage per turn to US/UK. That’s preposterously low and a waste of time and resource commitment.

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

Using rough and slightly fake probability math, it takes 3 subs on average to do 2 total damage per turn to US/UK. That’s preposterously low and a waste of time and resource commitment.

Sounds like classic Larry game design to me.  :lol:

The essential submarine change for ALL A&A games ought to be that the subs must be allowed to make an economic attack in their own turn (like a SBR!).

Roll a dice for each sub in specific SZs of high merchant traffic! The number rolled is the damage (=sunk merchant ships) the enemy has to surrender immediately!
The average per dice roll is 3,5 IPCs so that’s fine in my opinion.

After all a sub is a merchant ship attacker be it WWI or WWII.
Hoping for survival in the Allies turn when trying to inflict economical damage they are mostly just sitting ducks in the A&A games.

@xxstefanx:

The essential submarine change for ALL A&A games ought to be that the subs must be allowed to make an economic attack in their own turn (like a SBR!).

Roll a dice for each sub in specific SZs of high merchant traffic! The number rolled is the damage (=sunk merchant ships) the enemy has to surrender immediately!
The average per dice roll is 3,5 IPCs so that’s fine in my opinion.

After all a sub is a merchant ship attacker be it WWI or WWII.
Hoping for survival in the Allies turn when trying to inflict economical damage they are mostly just sitting ducks in the A&A games.

Yes, also a nice solution! Certainly better than the current rule. It would also force the opponents (usually Allies) to really start sub-hunting.