Unrestricted Submarine Warfare

[Flashman]

Except that you can do it on turn 3, since the Americans can only declare war when (and if) they lose income at the end of their turn, so they can do nothing about it until the start of turn 4, when they declare war anyway.

[Koningstiger]

@oztea:

Because by some twist of fate both those powers could be reduced to 0 IPCs if Germany builds 20 subs. However outlandish that seems.

Yes, but you’d first need to get them into the applicable sea zones.

[Shakespeare]

Declaring USW does not automatically cause the US to enter the war!

Reread the rules;  it is only when the USA loses an IPC from USW does the USA enter the war.

So the CP may declare USW at any time,

but just attack everyone else not the USA!

[Flashman]

There’s no point. They cannot use USW to attack UK income without doing the same to the USA.

[Koningstiger]

@Flashman:

There’s no point. They cannot use USW to attack UK income without doing the same to the USA.

All you could do is hope for a miss when you attack the US, but that sounds like a very dubious strategy.

I feel, as someone else suggested above, that no 1 or 2 should be needed to actually cause hits. Probably an automatic hit and a result of 1 or 2 causing a 1 IPC loss, a result of 3-4 a 2 IPC loss and a result of 5-6 a 3IPC loss would better simulate USW.

[oztea]

Or just each sub causes 2 damage.
Damage capped at 10 per turn.

[KimRYoung]

Or do it with the same mechanic as in Global 1940, at least that would be consistant.

Kim

[oztea]

Consistency isn’t Larry’s style

[Tavenier]

@Squadron:

oztea’s suggestion seems like a good start - But I also feel that declaring Unrestricted submarine warfare shouldn’t automatically bring the US into the game either. I’ve seen various tracks proposed on the US entry, and USW should certainly influence that, but not automatically cause the US to declare war, since it was just over two months between Germany declaring USW a second time in February 1917 and the US entry in April (also thanks to The Note). Maybe this could be tweaked slightly so that:

1. Roll of 1 or 2 does IPC damage to UK, roll again for amount:
     a. 1-3: 1 IPC
     b. 4-6: 2 IPCs (could also do 1-2:1 ; 3-4: 2 ; 5-6: 3 IPC, but one sub being responsible for 3 IPCs of damage seems a bit much)

2. Unrestricted submarine warfare: Roll of 1,2, or 3 does IPC damage to UK AND US
     a. 1-3: 1 IPC (same as above)
     b. " (same as above)
     c. US only receives 1 IPC damage per hit, while not at war. Once the US enters the war, roll for IPC damage same as UK

Option 1 is the same and easier if you say that a throw of one deducts one IPC and a two deducts two. Saves a throw of the dice!

[kraftwrk_5]

@Flashman:

From Larry’s report on Germany:

Germany begins the game with no less than 4 submarines. None of the other powers have even one. One way for the German player to exploit this obvious advantage, and the rules help him or her right along, is to declare that Germany will begin unrestricted submarine warfare. This can be done at any time during the game. Once this is declared, Germany will be considered to be conducting submarine attacks against both the United States� and the British Empire�s shipping routes. During the US and British player’s’ Collect Income phases, the German player will roll one die for each German submarine in certain sea zones (there are 3 of them, and they are sea zones 2, 7, and 8- strategically located, I assure you.). For each roll of 1 or 2, the attacked power will deduct 1 IPC from the income it normally collects during the phase. You might ask why Germany would not immediately and always conduct Unrestricted Submarine Warfare. Well… following Germany�s declared Unrestricted Submarine Warfare the United States will immediately enter the war! That might be reason enough to force the German player to wait a few turns before turning the subs loose.

Does anyone else think this is rather weak? Scarcely worth diverting subs from attacking Allied surface fleets.

I might consider upping the damage done, and adding more SZ route targets:

The attached example has one target for each Ally, plus the target in SZ 7 which effects all Allies.

Agreed - it is a horrible move.  So what if the Germans have 4 subs?  On the odds, they are unlikely to get more than 1 or 2 hits.  So you bring the U.S. into the war for only $1 or $2 IPCs?  No way is that worth it.  Maybe if you could make it more costly, a la the strategic bombing raids from WWII 1942, where the cost is what you roll on the dice.  But even then, it’s quite a risky proposition.  Oh, and don’t think that you’ll get to do this over several turns.  If the Allied player is paying attention at all your fleet will be destroyed by the end of round 2, if not round 1.

[Koningstiger]

@oztea:

Or just each sub causes 2 damage.
Damage capped at 10 per turn.

Yes, I like this one too. Simpe yet effective and not sooo powerful (like heavy bombers in e.g. the original A&A game) that is becomes game breaking.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

Using rough and slightly fake probability math, it takes 3 subs on average to do 2 total damage per turn to US/UK. That’s preposterously low and a waste of time and resource commitment.

[oztea]

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

Using rough and slightly fake probability math, it takes 3 subs on average to do 2 total damage per turn to US/UK. That’s preposterously low and a waste of time and resource commitment.

Sounds like classic Larry game design to me.  :lol:

[xxstefanx]

The essential submarine change for ALL A&A games ought to be that the subs must be allowed to make an economic attack in their own turn (like a SBR!).

Roll a dice for each sub in specific SZs of high merchant traffic! The number rolled is the damage (=sunk merchant ships) the enemy has to surrender immediately!
The average per dice roll is 3,5 IPCs so that’s fine in my opinion.

After all a sub is a merchant ship attacker be it WWI or WWII.
Hoping for survival in the Allies turn when trying to inflict economical damage they are mostly just sitting ducks in the A&A games.

[Koningstiger]

@xxstefanx:

The essential submarine change for ALL A&A games ought to be that the subs must be allowed to make an economic attack in their own turn (like a SBR!).

Roll a dice for each sub in specific SZs of high merchant traffic! The number rolled is the damage (=sunk merchant ships) the enemy has to surrender immediately!
The average per dice roll is 3,5 IPCs so that’s fine in my opinion.

After all a sub is a merchant ship attacker be it WWI or WWII.
Hoping for survival in the Allies turn when trying to inflict economical damage they are mostly just sitting ducks in the A&A games.

Yes, also a nice solution! Certainly better than the current rule. It would also force the opponents (usually Allies) to really start sub-hunting.

[Aristokles]

@xxstefanx:

The essential submarine change for ALL A&A games ought to be that the subs must be allowed to make an economic attack in their own turn (like a SBR!).

Roll a dice for each sub in specific SZs of high merchant traffic! The number rolled is the damage (=sunk merchant ships) the enemy has to surrender immediately!
The average per dice roll is 3,5 IPCs so that’s fine in my opinion.

I really like this idea, with possibly the added caveat of disallowing the economic attack if the enemy has any warships present in the SZ.

[Koningstiger]

@Aristokles:

@xxstefanx:

The essential submarine change for ALL A&A games ought to be that the subs must be allowed to make an economic attack in their own turn (like a SBR!).

Roll a dice for each sub in specific SZs of high merchant traffic! The number rolled is the damage (=sunk merchant ships) the enemy has to surrender immediately!
The average per dice roll is 3,5 IPCs so that’s fine in my opinion.

I really like this idea, with possibly the added caveat of disallowing the economic attack if the enemy has any warships present in the SZ.

Or that you’d first have to eliminate the warships in order to be allowed to make the economic attack. A single warship (obviously representing more than just 1, but still) could never be at all places in a certain sz at the same time.

Funny how easy it is to come up with a handful of suggestions which are all better than the official rule. That one really doesn’t make any sense whatsoever!

[Dukla passer]

Maybe it isn’t bad idea to bring US to the WAR earlier,so they can do spend and use the money to build the Navy and hunting the Germans instead of building the transports and INFs+ARTs without a problem.Maybe it can bring attention of FRE and GB to fight SZ 2,3,7,8 and try to do with the GER sneaky attack on UK or even US.

[Dukla passer]

Just want to be sure about two things.Situation between ships and subs is that ship is attacking you(rolling once)and then I can decide to submerge or not yes?There isn’t nothing like before the dice I can say I’m submergin’so there wont be hits?Attacker always has right to rolling once yes?

And another even with subs I cant move from SZ 19 to 28 if Egypt isnt under my control,yes?

[Krieghund]

@Dukla:

Situation between ships and subs is that ship is attacking you(rolling once)and then I can decide to submerge or not yes?There isn’t nothing like before the dice I can say I’m submergin’so there wont be hits?Attacker always has right to rolling once yes?

Correct.

@Dukla:

And another even with subs I cant move from SZ 19 to 28 if Egypt isnt under my control,yes?

Correct.