American Entry

Anytime you post, remember the note triggered the war. Only argue against that which is my point. Otherwise buzz off and smoke and mirror somebody else. If you keep this up the Indians will find us and scalp you.

Now keep repeating: the note triggered US entry into the war, not USW.

Every sentence you make repost that sentence until it burns into your skull.

@Imperious:

It is common knowledge that when the note was first released, American public thought it was trick by the British to draw us into war. The American public was still against the war until latter when the note was proven to be authentic. If you knew anything about this period you would have known that.

You should write this “common knowledge” a thank-you note for supporting your argument when legitimate historical sources do not.

@Imperious:

Anytime you post, remember the note triggered the war. Only argue against that which is my point.

I will argue against whatever I wish (maybe you actually are a millionaire, and that’s why you think you can boss people around.), and in this case, when I argue against the idea that the note was the most important/significant cause of US entry into the war, I AM arguing against a point you made at least four times, as I have quoted in a recent post above.

You say now that the note being the final trigger (last straw) is all your point has been after I shot down with direct evidence your claim that:
@Imperious:

Right and in this case, the note was the most important factor. It caused our entry in the war. No denying that.

You can say all you want that all you ever said was that the note was the “last straw” or “final trigger.” But it’s right there in black and white (or light blue in this case as it is quoted) that you claimed that it was ALSO the MOST IMPORTANT factor.

I have admitted countless times that it is quite plausible that the note was the last straw, the one that broke the camel’s back. You keep on harping on that to distract from your claim you made that the evidence does not support, that the note was the most important cause.

According to the sources we have, what was the most significant cause of the US entry into World War I? (not the one that happened last chronologically; there is a difference)

I am starting to sense a pattern in IL’s behavior from this and the "Playable nations"thread.

Step 1. Make a claim without actually examining evidence pertinent to the claim.
Step 2. Argue for the claim citing “common knowledge” and misread sources that don’t actually support the claim.
Step 3. Devolve into insults and distraction tactics when it is realized the evidence is piling up against the claim.
Step 4. Repeat a different claim from earlier over and over again to make people forget the other claim was ever made.
Step 5. Deny the claim from step 1 was ever made and keep repeating the different claim from step 4.

@Imperious:

Now that we know what triggers the war, you assign this as a fixed event in time from where the US player enters the game because that is a fact we can count upon since it is what caused the US entry.

But what caused the note to be sent? Or was it destiny that the note be sent then, regardless of what was happening in the war?

@Imperious:

The US could care less about what is going on in Europe. They cared only about how the war effected them, and the note was a implied threat against our continent.

You mean to say that the huge US financial investments in the allied powers before US entry were of no interest to Americans?

@Imperious:

I have been agreeing all along the the Zimmerman note was important in America going to war. It’s quite possibly the event that took things over the edge. But, things had to have been pushed to the edge in the first place, and from the sources, unrestricted submarine warfare overall pushed much further than the note. You can claim the note was the most important, that it pushed more than USW did, and then say that you never made those claims when the evidence starts piling up against you, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sources we have clearly point to USW as being more significant.

Wrong as usual. If that were true the British would never have needed to bring up the Note because USW events would have alone drawn the US into war. The British had to play their last card and make it known that they broke the German code. The note triggered the war not USW.

So without the note USW would never have led to a declaration? Or is it the case that the note merely sped the declaration along? You make it sound like the British release of the note was the last possible chance to get the US in the war, while the US just ignored its ships going down or just didn’t care.

I dont know what this mess is about but i do know it was the telegram that caused the entry of America.

I could also say it was the last in a long line of issues and perhaps the important thing. Really dont care except what does this have to do with this game?

Who even cares?

@Lucas:

I dont know what this mess is about but i do know it was the telegram that caused the entry of America.

I could also say it was the last in a long line of issues and perhaps the important thing. Really dont care except what does this have to do with this game?

Who even cares?

If we are going to have a house rule to share in the game where the US entry is dependent on something other than a scheduled turn, it would help to establish what was important in making the US go to war to make the game mechanic historical.

@Lucas:

I dont know what this mess is about but i do know it was the telegram that caused the entry of America.

I could also say it was the last in a long line of issues and perhaps the important thing. Really dont care except what does this have to do with this game?

Who even cares?

BTW, welcome to the forums!

Could you clarify a bit what you mean that it “caused the entry”? You are saying it was one of the causes, not the sole cause, right (the second line suggests that you see other causes, I just want to make sure I interpreted correctly.)?

So to generate a rule, you two have to argue for 2 or more pages long?
Come on. This has essentially gotten off topic, again, all in a disguise that its to help make a rule. (Whether you believe that or not)

Its really ridiculous. Make up your own rules, if some one has a problem with it and doesn’t like your rule, so what?
There is no need for arguing that detracts from the topic and doesn’t get anywhere.
You may think you’re contributing to the topic, but it really isn’t.

@ch0senfktard:

So to generate a rule, you two have to argue for 2 or more pages long?
Come on. This has essentially gotten off topic, again, all in a disguise that its to help make a rule. (Whether you believe that or not)

Its really ridiculous. Make up your own rules, if some one has a problem with it and doesn’t like your rule, so what?
There is no need for arguing that detracts from the topic and doesn’t get anywhere.
You may think you’re contributing to the topic, but it really isn’t.

Personally I actually do think it important that it be shown that US entry was an extremely important (I would go as far as to say the single most important) cause for the US to enter, in that it shows the idea should be present in the mechanic to have the US enter. It seemed to me that the thread started out discussing ideas that pertained to that entry. I have found that when people come together to iron out significant rule changes, the effect can be pretty cool, and I know it would be better than I can do by myself.

I do apologize, however, for taking the bait far more than was necessary to show my point as plausible grounds for the mechanic.

It seems that the telegram was the last item that caused the war since it was the last event. I remember in school something that i read saying this.

but this has nothing to do with the game or does it?

Anyway, i will play the game as it is. This stuff should be in another section.

@Lucas:

but this has nothing to do with the game or does it?

In my opinion it does. In a thread titled “American Entry” it seems pretty relevant to me to sort out why the US entered the war, since the OP talks about trying to get the entry to be tied to historically logical causes and the flow of the war in-game instead of a scheduled turn. Perhaps, though, this should be in house rules now or at least once the game is released.

But what caused the note to be sent? Or was it destiny that the note be sent then, regardless of what was happening in the war?

It was a last resort, since USW was not gonna trigger it. Sorry but facts are facts. The note triggered the war.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 01:59:48 pm
The US could care less about what is going on in Europe. They cared only about how the war effected them, and the note was a implied threat against our continent.

You mean to say that the huge US financial investments in the allied powers before US entry were of no interest to Americans?

What i mean is the note triggered the war, whatever nonsense you want to drag me into is never gonna work. Just address what was the last straw that got us into war. It was the note.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 04:24:57 pm

Quote
I have been agreeing all along the the Zimmerman note was important in America going to war. It’s quite possibly the event that took things over the edge. But, things had to have been pushed to the edge in the first place, and from the sources, unrestricted submarine warfare overall pushed much further than the note. You can claim the note was the most important, that it pushed more than USW did, and then say that you never made those claims when the evidence starts piling up against you, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sources we have clearly point to USW as being more significant.

Wrong as usual. If that were true the British would never have needed to bring up the Note because USW events would have alone drawn the US into war. The British had to play their last card and make it known that they broke the German code. The note triggered the war not USW.

So without the note USW would never have led to a declaration? Or is it the case that the note merely sped the declaration along? You make it sound like the British release of the note was the last possible chance to get the US in the war, while the US just ignored its ships going down or just didn’t care.

I made no claims, if i had to guess the British made the correct assessment in releasing the note and sacrificing the knowledge they broke the code. What is so difficult about this?
Nothing you do is working for like the last 40 posts.

@Imperious:

But what caused the note to be sent? Or was it destiny that the note be sent then, regardless of what was happening in the war?

It was a last resort, since USW was not gonna trigger it. Sorry but facts are facts. The note triggered the war.

Where is your proof that USW was not going to trigger it?

“This section lists the events of the year 1917, the fourth year of the war.  This year saw the adoption by the German high command of the disastrous policy of unrestricted submarine warfare - disastrous in that it brought about America’s entry into the war within the space of a couple of months, and ultimately led to her downfall the following year.”

http://www.firstworldwar.com/timeline/1917.htm

This source clearly states that USW brought about America’s entry into the war. Not the note. Do you have a source that clearly states the telegram’s decisive effect on the decision to go to war (not public opinion, a related, but different notion)?

@Imperious:

What i mean is the note triggered the war, whatever nonsense you want to drag me into is never gonna work. Just address what was the last straw that got us into war. It was the note.

$2 billion in investments in the allied powers is hardly nonsense, even for a “millionaire” like yourself.

@Imperious:

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 04:24:57 pm

Quote
I have been agreeing all along the the Zimmerman note was important in America going to war. It’s quite possibly the event that took things over the edge. But, things had to have been pushed to the edge in the first place, and from the sources, unrestricted submarine warfare overall pushed much further than the note. You can claim the note was the most important, that it pushed more than USW did, and then say that you never made those claims when the evidence starts piling up against you, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sources we have clearly point to USW as being more significant.

Wrong as usual. If that were true the British would never have needed to bring up the Note because USW events would have alone drawn the US into war. The British had to play their last card and make it known that they broke the German code. The note triggered the war not USW.

So without the note USW would never have led to a declaration? Or is it the case that the note merely sped the declaration along? You make it sound like the British release of the note was the last possible chance to get the US in the war, while the US just ignored its ships going down or just didn’t care.

I made no claims, if i had to guess the British made the correct assessment in releasing the note and sacrificing the knowledge they broke the code. What is so difficult about this?
Nothing you do is working for like the last 40 posts.

That’s good, you are at least admitting now that at least one of your ideas is a guess and not based on evidence. The telegram helped get public opinion against the Germans but as the actual sources (not guesses and not “common knowledge” have shown it was far from the most significant factor, and USW would have caused american antry with or without the note. What the note did likely do, was speed up the entry. But it’s safe to say at this point that according to the evidence the note was hardly the decisive factor, or you would have found SOMETHING substantial to support that. It’s 1 am, so good night.

Oh good more entertainment!

Where is your proof that USW was not going to trigger it?

I will say again that the note triggered the war, again you want to filibuster inane drivel and ancillary arguments that are not my own.  Keep trying. Keep failing.

“This section lists the events of the year 1917, the fourth year of the war.  This year saw the adoption by the German high command of the disastrous policy of unrestricted submarine warfare - disastrous in that it brought about America’s entry into the war within the space of a couple of months, and ultimately led to her downfall the following year.”

http://www.firstworldwar.com/timeline/1917.htm

This source clearly states that USW brought about America’s entry into the war. Not the note. Do you have a source that clearly states the telegram’s decisive effect on the decision to go to war (not public opinion, a related, but different notion)?

I do have the fact that the note triggered US entry, no matter how you want to rearrange the blocks. No matter how many times you want to create and invent new arguments, you will fail.

And it just shows how desperate you are. :-D

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 09:42:51 pm
What i mean is the note triggered the war, whatever nonsense you want to drag me into is never gonna work. Just address what was the last straw that got us into war. It was the note.

$2 billion in investments in the allied powers is hardly nonsense, even for a “millionaire” like yourself.

Oh value added words. Not working the note triggered the war. You fail.

Quote
I have been agreeing all along the the Zimmerman note was important in America going to war. It’s quite possibly the event that took things over the edge. But, things had to have been pushed to the edge in the first place, and from the sources, unrestricted submarine warfare overall pushed much further than the note. You can claim the note was the most important, that it pushed more than USW did, and then say that you never made those claims when the evidence starts piling up against you, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sources we have clearly point to USW as being more significant.

Wrong as usual. If that were true the British would never have needed to bring up the Note because USW events would have alone drawn the US into war. The British had to play their last card and make it known that they broke the German code. The note triggered the war not USW.

So without the note USW would never have led to a declaration? Or is it the case that the note merely sped the declaration along? You make it sound like the British release of the note was the last possible chance to get the US in the war, while the US just ignored its ships going down or just didn’t care.

I made no claims, if i had to guess the British made the correct assessment in releasing the note and sacrificing the knowledge they broke the code. What is so difficult about this?
Nothing you do is working for like the last 40 posts.

That’s good, you are at least admitting now that at least one of your ideas is a guess and not based on evidence. The telegram helped get public opinion against the Germans but as the actual sources (not guesses and not “common knowledge” have shown it was far from the most significant factor, and USW would have caused american antry with or without the note. What the note did likely do, was speed up the entry. But it’s safe to say at this point that according to the evidence the note was hardly the decisive factor, or you would have found SOMETHING substantial to support that. It’s 1 am, so good night.

Another new argument? LOL. The note was the final straw that triggered the war. Get over it. Now read and learn:

http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/world-war-i/essays/zimmermann-telegram-and-american-entry-world-war-i

Zimmerman Telegram:

Other points influenced entrance to the war, but the Zimmerman Telegram (sometimes called the “Zimmerman note” or “Zimmerman telegraph”) finally pushed the US to war.

We call this the final straw, not buzz off.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_did_the_US_become_involved_in_World_War_1

@Imperious:

@Imperious:

It was a last resort, since USW was not gonna trigger it. Sorry but facts are facts. The note triggered the war.

Where is your proof that USW was not going to trigger it?

I will say again that the note triggered the war, again you want to filibuster inane drivel and ancillary arguments that are not my own. � Keep trying. Keep failing.

How is it not your argument? You say right there (where I added bold to highlight) that USW was not going to trigger the war! And then when I ask for proof for that claim, a historical source or two stating that war would not have occurred if USW had gone on longer without the note, you try to say you made no claim. Is it perhaps because you don’t have any evidence? (rhetorical question).

@Imperious:

I do have the fact that the note triggered US entry, no matter how you want to rearrange the blocks. No matter how many times you want to create and invent new arguments, you will fail.

If by my failing, you mean you ignoring the evidence and saying the same thing over and over again, then I suppose yes, I would be “failing.” You made plenty of claims outside of the note being the last straw. I did not invent those. You did. Chief among those are your statements that the note was more important a cause than USW and that Wilson did not mention the note in his war speech because he was worried he would give an intel source away by mentioning the note (even though the note was published in NEWSPAPERS and confirmed by its AUTHOR as authentic long before the speech!).

@Imperious:

That’s good, you are at least admitting now that at least one of your ideas is a guess and not based on evidence. The telegram helped get public opinion against the Germans but as the actual sources (not guesses and not “common knowledge” have shown it was far from the most significant factor, and USW would have caused american antry with or without the note. What the note did likely do, was speed up the entry. But it’s safe to say at this point that according to the evidence the note was hardly the decisive factor, or you would have found SOMETHING substantial to support that. It’s 1 am, so good night.

Another new argument? LOL. The note was the final straw that triggered the war. Get over it. Now read and learn:

What in my post was a new argument? I already said it sped up entry. I already said it affected public opinion. I already said USW was more decisive. I already said that USW would lead to war, note or not. I suppose it’s new that I mention what time it is, but that’s hardly an argument, unless you would like to contest what time it was when I made the post (given your penchant for distraction, I would not be surprised).

@Imperious:

Other points influenced entrance to the war, but the Zimmerman Telegram (sometimes called the “Zimmerman note” or “Zimmerman telegraph”) finally pushed the US to war.

We call this the final straw, not buzz off.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_did_the_US_become_involved_in_World_War_1

I said in post 22 that is was probable that the telegram was the final straw. You keep harping on that one point that was settled pages ago. I suspect it is because you are trying to distract from your other claims that significant evidence has not supported.

So what can we agree on?
1. The Zimmermann note, either very probably or most definitely, was the last straw in a collection of events that caused the US to go to war.
2. Although the note was the last straw, according to the evidence, Unrestricted Submarine Warfare was a more significant cause than the note for the United States’ entry into the war.
3. Woodrow Wilson’s omission (of the mention of the note in his speech asking Congress for war) was NOT because he worried such mention would compromise intelligence sources (since the note was publicly released and confirmed by its author, there was nothing important to give up that wasn’t already given up)
4. According to the sources, USW would have eventually caused American entry, although probably not as fast as it happened with the note’s release expediting the process.

Your acceptance, rejection with evidence, or admission of inability to accept or reject these points due to lack of supporting or contrary evidence would go a long way to settling the matters gracefully.

Please address them point by point to make future discussion more efficient.

How is it not your argument? You say right there (where I added bold to highlight) that USW was not going to trigger the war! And then when I ask for proof for that claim, a historical source or two stating that war would not have occurred if USW had gone on longer without the note, you try to say you made no claim. Is it perhaps because you don’t have any evidence? (rhetorical question).

If USW could trigger the war, the British would never give up the fact that they broke the code. The facts prove themselves. This is basic reasoning except for you. Why give away an advantage if you dont have too?

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 09, 2013, 10:49:39 pm
I do have the fact that the note triggered US entry, no matter how you want to rearrange the blocks. No matter how many times you want to create and invent new arguments, you will fail.

If by my failing, you mean you ignoring the evidence and saying the same thing over and over again, then I suppose yes, I would be “failing.” You made plenty of claims outside of the note being the last straw. I did not invent those. You did. Chief among those are your statements that the note was more important a cause than USW and that Wilson did not mention the note in his war speech because he was worried he would give an intel source away by mentioning the note (even though the note was published in NEWSPAPERS and confirmed by its AUTHOR as authentic long before the speech!).

Then you have your answer. You fail. My argument is not for the millionth time which was a greater influence, but what was the trigger that caused the war, which is the note. Get over it.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 09, 2013, 10:49:39 pm

Quote
That’s good, you are at least admitting now that at least one of your ideas is a guess and not based on evidence. The telegram helped get public opinion against the Germans but as the actual sources (not guesses and not “common knowledge” have shown it was far from the most significant factor, and USW would have caused american antry with or without the note. What the note did likely do, was speed up the entry. But it’s safe to say at this point that according to the evidence the note was hardly the decisive factor, or you would have found SOMETHING substantial to support that. It’s 1 am, so good night.

Another new argument? LOL. The note was the final straw that triggered the war. Get over it. Now read and learn:

What in my post was a new argument? I already said it sped up entry. I already said it affected public opinion. I already said USW was more decisive. I already said that USW would lead to war, note or not. I suppose it’s new that I mention what time it is, but that’s hardly an argument, unless you would like to contest what time it was when I made the post (given your penchant for distraction, I would not be surprised).

Anything that subverts the truth that the note was the trigger that caused US entry, is de facto another argument that i made no claim about. Some of these arguments are entertaining BTW.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 09, 2013, 10:49:39 pm
Quote
Other points influenced entrance to the war, but the Zimmerman Telegram (sometimes called the “Zimmerman note” or “Zimmerman telegraph”) finally pushed the US to war.

I said in post 22 that is was probable that the telegram was the final straw. You keep harping on that one point that was settled pages ago. I suspect it is because you are trying to distract from your other claims that significant evidence has not supported.

Then stop arguing with my point. It is my only point here. Stop inventing other things that you assume are my claims or trying ( and failing ) to get me to answer questions so you can form new arguments from what i posted.

So what can we agree on?
1. The Zimmermann note, either very probably or most definitely, was the last straw in a collection of events that caused the US to go to war. YES
2. Although the note was the last straw, according to the evidence, Unrestricted Submarine Warfare was a more significant cause than the note for the United States’ entry into the war.

Never made any claim about this, this is your claim.

3. Woodrow Wilson’s omission (of the mention of the note in his speech asking Congress for war) was NOT because he worried such mention would compromise intelligence sources (since the note was publicly released and confirmed by its author, there was nothing important to give up that wasn’t already given up)

Never made any claim about this, this is your claim

4. According to the sources, USW would have eventually caused American entry, although probably not as fast as it happened with the note’s release expediting the process.

NO, it that were true they didn’t need the note. Basic reasoning.

Your acceptance, rejection with evidence, or admission of inability to accept or reject these points due to lack of supporting or contrary evidence would go a long way to settling the matters gracefully.

You are really ridiculous and immature.

Please address them point by point to make future discussion more efficient.

Now stop wasting time with continual gibberish.

@Imperious:

If USW could trigger the war, the British would never give up the fact that they broke the code. The facts prove themselves. This is basic reasoning except for you. Why give away an advantage if you dont have too?

Whoa there, you are getting ahead of yourself. There is a difference between USW not being able to cause the war and it not being able to cause the war fast enough for the British. Remember, at this time, USW was pretty successful at disrupting supplies to Britain. Britain wanting to accelerate US entry because of their shortages is not the same at all as Britain publishing the note as the last possible chance for the US to EVER enter the war. According to the sources that I have shown already, USW was going to lead the US into war. It’s very likely the case that the release of the note accelerated the entry, perhaps quite a lot. Would the US have entered the war without the note? According the the SOURCES, yes. Would it have been fast enough for what the British wanted? Well, probably not, since they thought it prudent to give up their source to accelerate US entry.

@Imperious:

Then you have your answer. You fail. My argument is not for the millionth time which was a greater influence, but what was the trigger that caused the war, which is the note. Get over it.

You can’t retract arguments you have made and say you never made them just because the evidence has slapped those arguments silly. You can concede those arguments, but you can’t say you never made them and expect to be taken seriously by people with rational minds and a functional understanding of English.

It has become quite the trend with you that once your claim is shown to be against the evidence, you all of a sudden never made it.

@Imperious:

Anything that subverts the truth that the note was the trigger that caused US entry, is de facto another argument that i made no claim about. Some of these arguments are entertaining BTW.

Saying something over and over again doesn’t make it true. You should know that by now. Defend your other claims, concede them, or just admit that you don’t have enough information or sources to either defend or concede (try having evidence supporting your claims BEFORE you make them, instead of just saying your source is something you heard in school one time.

@Imperious:

I said in post 22 that is was probable that the telegram was the final straw. You keep harping on that one point that was settled pages ago. I suspect it is because you are trying to distract from your other claims that significant evidence has not supported.

Then stop arguing with my point. It is my only point here.

That is a LIE.

Proof:
@Imperious:

Something being the “last straw” is hardly the same as something being the most important factor or an even-more-than-barely-significant factor.

Right and in this case, the note was the most important factor. It caused our entry in the war. No denying that.

@Imperious:

2. Although the note was the last straw, according to the evidence, Unrestricted Submarine Warfare was a more significant cause than the note for the United States’ entry into the war.

Never made any claim about this, this is your claim.

LIE. See you post about the note being the “most important factor” above, and the three other posts I quoted a few posts back.

@Imperious:

3. Woodrow Wilson’s omission (of the mention of the note in his speech asking Congress for war) was NOT because he worried such mention would compromise intelligence sources (since the note was publicly released and confirmed by its author, there was nothing important to give up that wasn’t already given up)

Never made any claim about this, this is your claim

LIE. Proof:

@Imperious:

First of all, a quick search of the document shows at least 8 mentions of “submarine.” How many COMBINED mentions of Zimmerman(n), note, or telegram do we find? Zero. Zilch. Nada. This is the president’s speech asking congress for war. If the note was more important than USW wouldn’t it make sense that the note would be mentioned somewhere close to as much as USW? Maybe just once? But it isn’t mentioned. Not once. Was it relevant in turning public opinion against the Germans? Sure. Was it the last straw, the one thing that took it over the edge? Possibly. But was it the most important cause? If we are to answer honestly after carefully looking at the evidence, the answer is no.

This is why you should not be involved in understanding History. The Note was a sensitive paper which got intercepted by the British. So to acknowledge the code was broken would subvert future interceptions. It would be the same problem if in WW2, FDR says “we broke the Japanese code because we tricked them by reporting the water tanks at Midway were out.”

Don’t just read facts without tying them together to make sense of it all.

Even though the telegram was released the a month before the speech, you still claimed that he wanted to keep the note secret to avoid tipping the Germans the code was broken.

@Imperious:

4. According to the sources, USW would have eventually caused American entry, although probably not as fast as it happened with the note’s release expediting the process.

NO, it that were true they didn’t need the note. Basic reasoning.

So you can prove that the US would NEVER have entered the war if the note were not released? Forget direct proof, do you even have a legitimate historical opinion saying that? Please refer the the numerous bits of evidence I posted AGAINST that, saying the decision to renew USW made American entry inevitable, regardless of how much or how little the note accelerated it.

There is so much you could do here to be in some measure an adult. You could admit you made the claims I mentioned in 2,3, and 4. You could admit you did not have evidence to support those claims. You could admit the evidence supports the points I have made relative to those claims. You could admit you have been repeating a point over and over again, a point that I already conceded, in order to distract from claims you made evidence does not support.

But at least some of these things might come about to look like you might be making an admission that you were wrong or at least going against the actual evidence in many cases. How can your ego be so big that that is such an impossibility for you? If you are a millionaire as you say, you should be able to afford some help for such an issue. Count that as a blessing. Many who need help cannot get it.

If you insist on continuing to dodge claims you made and double-talk about others, that is unfortunate. Please start citing something other than sources that don’t say what you claim they do, or “common knowledge,” or “basic reasoning,” � or “something that you read in school saying this.”

Hmm…

Here’s some interesting FACTS to consider.

Message Sent Jan 17th.
Message Decoded and handed to US Feb 20th.
Wilson sits on message for WEEKS, then releases to press Mid March.
weeks later Wilson asks congress to declare war
April 6 1917, US Formally declares.

Message specifically acknowledges that germany expects american’s to declare war, based on their re-activation of unrestricted sub warfare.

As for the British back story, they told the public they “stole” the pre-deciphered message from the Mexicans.

@Flashman:

In game terms, I still believe it is absurd to have the Zimmerman note as a “fixed point in time” in a game starting in 1914. There are so many variables leading up to it that it is just too scripted…

The fact that it was the “final straw” in 1917 does not mean that it was inevitably the one fact that caused American entry, especially when other important steps were taken by Germany, which in a game Germany should not be forced to take.

If the player does not want to make the huge decision of engaging/resuming unrestricted submarine warfare, It would be great for the game if they could make that choice. It can be balanced because even though it holds off US entry, it would allow Britain to become stronger. Not only that, it puts a player in a historical scenario of the war, rather than walking the player through the events as they occured with no choice in the matter.

Whoa there, you are getting ahead of yourself. There is a difference between USW not being able to cause the war and it not being able to cause the war fast enough for the British. Remember, at this time, USW was pretty successful at disrupting supplies to Britain. Britain wanting to accelerate US entry because of their shortages is not the same at all as Britain publishing the note as the last possible chance for the US to EVER enter the war. According to the sources that I have shown already, USW was going to lead the US into war. It’s very likely the case that the release of the note accelerated the entry, perhaps quite a lot. Would the US have entered the war without the note? According the the SOURCES, yes. Would it have been fast enough for what the British wanted? Well, probably not, since they thought it prudent to give up their source to accelerate US entry.

According to the sources, it is not a fact that USW alone could trigger the entry. If it could trigger the war alone, the British are stupid for wasting all that effort breaking the code, just to force the Germans into making a new code and losing all the intelligence. According the the sources you provided, nothing is conclusive except that the note triggered the war.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 10:53:01 am
Then you have your answer. You fail. My argument is not for the millionth time which was a greater influence, but what was the trigger that caused the war, which is the note. Get over it.

You can’t retract arguments you have made and say you never made them just because the evidence has slapped those arguments silly. You can concede those arguments, but you can’t say you never made them and expect to be taken seriously by people with rational minds and a functional understanding of English.

You can keep ignoring arguments i make and replace them with others either. The note triggered the war. Get over it.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 10:53:01 am

Anything that subverts the truth that the note was the trigger that caused US entry, is de facto another argument that i made no claim about. Some of these arguments are entertaining BTW.

Saying something over and over again doesn’t make it true. You should know that by now. Defend your other claims, concede them, or just admit that you don’t have enough information or sources to either defend or concede (try having evidence supporting your claims BEFORE you make them, instead of just saying your source is something you heard in school one time.

The note caused the entry of the US. It is a fact. I can say it again more if you like but no matter how many times i do say it, it is still true. Get over it.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 10:53:01 am
Quote
I said in post 22 that is was probable that the telegram was the final straw. You keep harping on that one point that was settled pages ago. I suspect it is because you are trying to distract from your other claims that significant evidence has not supported.

Then stop arguing with my point. It is my only point here.

That is a LIE.

You are a lie.

Proof:
Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 08, 2013, 03:20:04 pm
Quote
Something being the “last straw” is hardly the same as something being the most important factor or an even-more-than-barely-significant factor.

Right and in this case, the note was the most important factor. It caused our entry in the war. No denying that.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 10:53:01 am
2. Although the note was the last straw, according to the evidence, Unrestricted Submarine Warfare was a more significant cause than the note for the United States’ entry into the war.

Never made any claim about this, this is your claim.

LIE. See you post about the note being the “most important factor” above, and the three other posts I quoted a few posts back.

You see what you want to see. that is your problem. May gods have mercy on your soul.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 10:53:01 am
3. Woodrow Wilson’s omission (of the mention of the note in his speech asking Congress for war) was NOT because he worried such mention would compromise intelligence sources (since the note was publicly released and confirmed by its author, there was nothing important to give up that wasn’t already given up)

Never made any claim about this, this is your claim

LIE. Proof:

?  empty…some proof.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 08, 2013, 07:23:02 pm
Quote
First of all, a quick search of the document shows at least 8 mentions of “submarine.” How many COMBINED mentions of Zimmerman(n), note, or telegram do we find? Zero. Zilch. Nada. This is the president’s speech asking congress for war. If the note was more important than USW wouldn’t it make sense that the note would be mentioned somewhere close to as much as USW? Maybe just once? But it isn’t mentioned. Not once. Was it relevant in turning public opinion against the Germans? Sure. Was it the last straw, the one thing that took it over the edge? Possibly. But was it the most important cause? If we are to answer honestly after carefully looking at the evidence, the answer is no.

This is why you should not be involved in understanding History. The Note was a sensitive paper which got intercepted by the British. So to acknowledge the code was broken would subvert future interceptions. It would be the same problem if in WW2, FDR says “we broke the Japanese code because we tricked them by reporting the water tanks at Midway were out.”

Don’t just read facts without tying them together to make sense of it all.

Even though the telegram was released the a month before the speech, you still claimed that he wanted to keep the note secret to avoid tipping the Germans the code was broken.

I said the British would never give up the code, unless it was the last resort to trigger the war. They had to release it because your USW was not enough of an influence to trigger the war. Only after the note was made public did that solidly public opinion decidedly against Germany, allowing Wilson to have the cache to declare war. You must be stupid to keep ignoring what i do say and infer things i dont. You fail, get over it.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 08, 2013, 07:23:02 pm
4. According to the sources, USW would have eventually caused American entry, although probably not as fast as it happened with the note’s release expediting the process.

NO, it that were true they didn’t need the note. Basic reasoning.

So you can prove that the US would NEVER have entered the war if the note were not released? Forget direct proof, do you even have a legitimate historical opinion saying that? Please refer the the numerous bits of evidence I posted AGAINST that, saying the decision to renew USW made American entry inevitable, regardless of how much or how little the note accelerated it.

You need to also then post evidence that the US would have 100% entered the war without the note. Do that first and don’t ask me to defend points that are not my own. The note triggered the war. If USW would have done this, Wilson would DOW before the note, and the British would never let the Germans know they broke the code.

There is so much you could do here to be in some measure an adult. You could admit you made the claims I mentioned in 2,3, and 4. You could admit you did not have evidence to support those claims. You could admit the evidence supports the points I have made relative to those claims. You could admit you have been repeating a point over and over again, a point that I already conceded, in order to distract from claims you made evidence does not support.

I only admit my main claim that the note triggered the war, get over it.

But at least some of these things might come about to look like you might be making an admission that you were wrong or at least going against the actual evidence in many cases. How can your ego be so big that that is such an impossibility for you? If you are a millionaire as you say, you should be able to afford some help for such an issue. Count that as a blessing. Many who need help cannot get it.

Once you admit the note triggered the war without any swiss cheese arguments, you will fell alot better. And stop arguing.

If you insist on continuing to dodge claims you made and double-talk about others, that is unfortunate. Please start citing something other than sources that don’t say what you claim they do, or “common knowledge,” or “basic reasoning,” � or "something that you read in school saying this.

"

The note triggered the war, there you go.  If the British could get away and keep the German code they would. They had to give it up because all the others influences were not working. It would be stupid to give up something if you didn’t have to, and stop asking me to find sources to prove that because it is basic knowledge.

Now go away.