After Action Report! Good News! and bad…

@Gargantua:

Played my first game today.  Managed to complete it in a single sitting!  11am start 11PM finish, with no serious breaks.

All players had never played before, but were more than familiar with Axis and Allies, or the closer World at War variants.

My partner and I (Japan and Germany) were much more experienced than our opponents who were at best “Medium” adversaries.  They were slaughtered by Round 6.

That said - in my humble opinion, if I had been playing myself, I don’t see how the axis could win.  My gut felt it was heavily allied favour (though more testing is required)

Let’s start off the review EASY!  (PLEASE DO NOT TAKE ANY OFFENSE TO ANY STATEMENTS BELOW - I ENJOYED EVERY SECOND OF THIS GAME, THANK YOU FOR YOUR EFFORTS, DEFINETLY AWESOME!)

Garg, I’m going to take a stab at these, but Variable will correct me if I’m wrong.

OUTSTANDING QUESTIONS:
1. Can a “Coastal Battleship” take two hits? What does it cost to repair?
2. Can a “Coastal Battleship” move to another island or coast? as long as it ends its move next to coast?

Once coastal ships are absorbed by a power they can move, def and attack along their original coast line (I normally place the roundel under the coastal ship of the power that got it to show it is coastal). Coastal ships can only be moved in sz’s adjacent to the territories of the original neutral country. Like once activated a Spanish coastal bb can move 2 spaces (3 w/NB) to any sz next to any Spanish territory. These would be sz’s 28,32,35,36,and 37 **note sz 34 isn’t adjacent to Spain, but we have allowed the Spanish BB to move through it to end movement along the Spanish coast line on the other side if with-in its movement range (but I could be wrong on that). I believe it would be the same for the Dutch ships in the Pac moving from island to island as long as they end movement next to an original Dutch island/territory (but not 100% sure see below). If a coastal bb takes a hit, and can get to a friendly NB then the power that absorbed the ship should be able to roll a dice to repair it. Like if the Germans activated/absorbed the Spanish fleet, and Italy owned Gib w/NB servicing sz 35. The Germans could roll a repair dice for the Spanish coastal bb (if its in sz35).

3. Are there more Paratrooper Rules?
Paratroopers can be dropped into any territory with-in a bmrs range as long as both are leaving from an AB, and the bmr can land safely. The paratrooper is cargo when bmr is fired on by AA, and both would be lost if hit. BTW the bmr is used for transport, and doesn’t get to fire its big guns in the ground battle.

4. Can Japan use the “suprise attack” against a nation they are at war with, skipping the roll + and - and just using the NCM after ability?

Not sure what you mean, but you can’t do a sneak attack on a power you are already at war with. So if your saying you made a normal attack, and want to NCM those same units out of harms way then NO.

5. Do Coastal Battleships get +1 from NB’s?
We allow it

6. Does anyone ever invade Holland? It was a waste of space on my map LOL.  I stomped the “Imagino” line like it wasn’t even there. And why would all of the DEI instantly become british by attacking Holland? as opposed to jut becoming “pro allied”
6B. If DEI is attacked alone, and Holland isn’t captured, does it become british INSTANTLY?

The Dutch rules have changed in the new rules. They were treated as a pro ally once Holland fell before, but Japan was also allowed to attack/capture them w/o any consequences from J1 (which also seemed off for 1939). The new rules still don’t seem right to me either. As you noted Germany probably doesn’t hit Holland until after Japan gets going so they don’t just give the FEC more income. I was told that if Holland falls, or the Japanese attack the DEI then all the land (income) goes to the FEC, but the units stay Dutch including the navy (which would be treated as if it was coastal in sz88). Also they said to treat the Dutch like the Poles, but you can play Poland a couple different ways one of witch all units convert to UK.

I would like if the dutch were treated more like a playable power with the political views of the UK. Allow the Dutch to move units and ships around with-in their territories/sz’s on the UK’s turn. If Holland falls you roll for the ships to see who gets what (possibly just don’t allow the axis to capture Dutch ships, scuttle them w/roll of 1-8 so there isn’t a question if captured who gets it Germany, or Japan in the Pac). It would put pressure on Germany so the Dutch can’t move the navy, or transport units. If Holland falls the territories stay Dutch until the UK/Anz claim them for income and any units in them. If Japan attacks the Dutch territories or ships, it is the same as if they were attacking the UK, and at that point you could turn all remaining Dutch possession and units over to the FEC.

7. If an attack against pro-axis/pro-allied fails, does that country now belong to the nearest pro player?
No, it would still need to be activated by the other side. To activate a pro to your side neutral you just need to NCM a ground unit into the territory to claim it along with any units or ships that are left. If the country has multiple territories (only one was attacked) you just need to NCM into any of the remaining territories and you claim all the remaining land, units and ships. Say your Germany and Spain just went pro axis (either a direct allied attack on Seville, or an event like Germany had Paris and just captured Leningrad in the combat phase). The Germans just NCM into any Spanish territory (like Barcelona) and all the other Spanish remaining land, units, and fleet is theirs. You can even capture Leningrad in Germany’s combat phase, and NCM in to claim Spain in the same turn to claim it.

8. if a pro-axis like Argentina is attacked in a territory that is NOT there capital, do the units join the nearest axis power?
Nope, they still need to be activated as above

9. Can you build the HALF or Directional fortifications?
Any new forts built cost 20 IPCs and protect from all directions. We have put our own limit on how many inf can get the def+2 bonus (20 units for now). If you want to build directional forts though, and charge like 10- 12 IPC I’m sure they’re not going to show up at your door to tell you that isn’t allowed.

This game just screams house rules (and is made up mostly from house rules). I (like most) like to play quite a few times to understand the rules, how they work and what the intent was before I start tweaking stuff

10. Does anything happen if Finland falls?  Does the money go to Russia? If so -Why? Russia and London’s dont.
Yep if Russia takes it they would get their small bank

11. if Russia attacks the Finnish navy off the coast of Finland, and Germany is there, can they defend?  What if The destroyer leaves Finnish waters?  All whilst Finland and Russia are at War, and Russia and Germany arent.
We have only allow land battles, but good question.

12. Is the Baltic considered part of the Atlantic for UK NO purposes? (This was a huge battle). Do Italian subs count?
The NO says German subs in the Atlantic, so we don’t not count the Baltic subs, Med subs, Black Sea subs or Italian subs, and it also says not to count the sz’s west of the Americas. We would count the sz’s of the White Sea in northern Russia though.

13. if a Navy is to join the “nearest fleet” and it’s more than 2 away, is it scuttled? or moved across the board and through 2 enemy controlled canals to be at the nearest fleet? :P
My understanding is if there isn’t a friendly NB with-in 2 sz’s they are just transferred over to the nearest friendly fleet regardless of range (but I see can see your point of no limits). When rolling for neutral navies only ships that escape capture are allowed to move, but coastal ships that escape capture will stay put (would still follow coastal rules). Captured neutral ships that join the attacker are also left in the orig sz for now (not moved to friendly port etc…), but can move freely on the next turn (unless it was coastal-and coastal rules would apply). French/Vichy follow their own (similar) rules, and the dice could have all 3 factions moving ships around w/o range limitations. BTW boats that go Vichy will move to a Vichy territory, but I believe they are stuck there after that and are only allowed to defend.

14. Is the canadian NO after america joins in, just for one turn? or all subsequent turns?
We have not played with Canada as its own power. We have grouped England, Canada, and S Africa into one econ. In doing so we don’t use that NO, because we felt that is was given just to help prop up a small econ. If we do play w/Canada as its own power/econ then yeah I would take it every turn after the US joins the fight. That’s my take on it, but Variable should clarify

15. Are there no rules regarding other neutrals? Or are they just fair game?

Yep, knock em out take their land, and collect income in the process LOL. We felt as you did that the allies just have to easy of a time in S America, and several ppl have lobbied for some inf down there (including me). Last game we tried 1 inf in Columbia, and one inf in Venezuela, to slow up the UK, but with the Anz coming over in your game the back side might also need at least one, maybe Peru?

This area has caught some concern in our group, and others here too. The UK can activate Brazil, gain the inf toss a bmr over there (even bring an inf with it), take out Argentina and collect a bunch of income. There has also been questions of can Italy (or even Japan) should be able activate Argentina to put up a fight. Germany would have a hard time getting down there unless it got lucky and acquired a good part of the French fleet (including a transport).

The COOL Factor!

• Rolling for neutral navies is awesome!
• All the tertiary powers, like Romania, Bulgaria Etc, are alot of fun, and using S.A.F is a must!
• BIG MAP is epic
• Special units were really fun, especially when you have the HBG pieces!
• LESS NO’s was more enjoyable IMO
• Mech and arty Combo’s are awesome! Moving 2 together!
• German Double Stomp Start is alot of fun.
• Neutrals having navies was cool!
• Little rules were a bit much to grasp at first, but alot of fun once we got started!

SERIOUS CONCERNS:
1. Defending Naval bases having AA able to shoot at all planes is brutal.  Navies are already favoured on defence this is heavy handed

We are probably playing it wrong, but we only have the NB fire one support shot per round at air.

2. Paratroopers as best as we could find rules for - were a big problem.  I can spend $160 as the US, build 10 bombers and 10 paras, park them in London, and you have to defend all serious German targets immediately with 15+ units.  WORSE Berlin can get strafed by British Air and Paras first, which could easily be 7 or 8 planes.  And it’s not even the attack that’s the problem.  It’s that the “attack is possible” and you have to defend against invisible possibilities.  Axis are doomed until this changed.

Yeah I have also thought paratroopers w/o limits could be a problem. I just recently found out that the bmrs don’t participate in the battle though so that helps LOL. We may also institute a must attack first hostel territory rule too so they they can’t drop way behind your lines.

3. Major in Novo, but no Complex In stalingrad?  An Easy $40 spent in novo put 5 art 5 mec moving around at two in China early game.  Talk about PAINFUL, especially with Partisan rules,  Japan stood no chance against any campaign in Russia

Well if you look at how much Japanese tanks cost you can tell they didn’t want the Japanese getting deep into Russia. I miss the minor in Stalingrad though too. Also the major in Karelia, and no IC in Leningrad is kinda weird. It forces Russia to pick between the major IC, or giving up Leningrad and the Germans get Spain.

4. No penalities for invading Neutrals?  Anzac Conquered ALL of South America, and started on the first turn. rather dissappointing.  Italy walked into Istanbul, and then started dropping 10 units a turn from their capital, to beside the Russian capital.  How convienient! :P Russia stomped Mongolia just for fun.  Mexico, columbia, venezula, chile, etc is just a walk in and walk away.  Realistic? no. :P

Yep, S America defiantly needs something as mentioned above, and Russia moving on Mongolia is weird, maybe some kinda of a Mongolian/Nap rule like in G40?

5. No one ever bothered with taking convoys.  They were completely irrelevant, for example  Every single british convoy is in range of the canadians NB.  And you would have to leave subs to their DEATH for no good reason.  I would rather suicide my subs at 5 against an enemy navy, than waste the thought of staying in a convoy zone.  These should just be a pass through like the good ol days! :P

We were able to convoy off and on, but I really don’t have enough experience with this system to comment much. I did like the convoy boxes, but would be interested in the pass through. I guess the convoy would take place on the attackers turn, and they would just need to move in and out (or maybe even stay in the box). Then deducted some how from the victim.

6.The fortress is broken.  If I have a capital stack of roughly 60 infantry (Which is reasonable), For every fortress I build at 20, I get another round of something like 120 defense power, which is the equivelant of another 30 infantry.  The Power of 30 infantry? for another $20? No problem.  after I have 2 or 3 of these (using one up per round) you’re never going to break in.

Like I said earlier, we started putting a max limit of 20 def inf get +2 w/fort. You know that only lasts one round though right, then the inf def as normal. The fort itself rolls 2 dice at 5 or less, and that is also only for one round of battle. I think forts have gone through some changes in the revisions, so our feed back is important.

7. Attacking forces only rolling at 2, or 3 if paired with artillery, makes attacking weaker in General.  In a game where Axis ground units are already diminished (Italy and Japan are very LOW on inf), they get chewed up fast!  Coupled with fortresses, attacking in general is just a bad idea.

I thought the attack values for the basic ground units might be low the first couple games (we kept screwing up and rolling art and inf w/art support @ 4 in attacks LOL). You do get some special units to boost attacks though, and mech has a better role in this game pairing with tanks for +1. Mech dragging art with it is pretty cool to, but I wouldn’t mind slightly higher values in attacks for the basic units.

8. Lack of being able to build minors really hurts…

9. Keeping the US out until late in the game is impossible!  Same with Russia, how they could not have reached threshold hold by turns 4 + 5 is beyond me! :P

Hope this isn’t too much of a mess, and no one’s offended, just unloading my mind at midnight - post game, getting ready for R2 tomorrow!  Please answer -whatever- small morsels you can!:P

Thanks…

Hope this help, and I’m sure others will chime in for corrections, or opinions.  WB

@Gargantua:

Thanks Bill! I agree with/understand most of your comments.  Appreciate your insights.

I have to say, This Holland thing is a joke.

Last game, Holland was never attacked, and neither was the DEI.  And ANZAC literally had nothing to do for 4 turns, other than invade south america.

Japan can reach 80+ income without even look at the DEI.  And when FEC fails, HOLLAND STAYS F-ING NEUTRAL!?!?!?!

It’s not even pro-allied.  You can “reinforce” it, but can’t take it.

The allies get screwed by this.

Agreed needs to be looked at again for sure.

other notes from Game 2

-Also, can “sneak attacks” by Japan move fleets through allied -screen- ships?  like you are 2 SZ’s away from Calcutta, with just a british destroyer in the zone, can you move past the dst “sneaking” and land on the mainland?

We have not allowed the Japanese to pass through blockers the turn they use the attack, but I like your sneaky thinking LOL. The thing is to NCM into the sz with the blocker, or past the blocker the turn before to set-up the following turn. It isn’t as easy to set-up 3 good sneak attacks in the same turn as you would think. The UK can DOW on turn 3, so it doesn’t give you much time to set the table.

Trying to chase down the US when they are determined to stay the F-away is a b���� too. They have NB’s, on their side of the board (or can build some), and the Japanese can only move two spaces. The last time I was the US, the Japanese tried to track me down, so I retreated to the West Coast and blocked him out w/dd’s (I ended up in SZ 137 adjacent to US & Canada). The Japanese kinda gave up trying to hit my fleet, and decided to just hit the Philippines etc… and retreated his fleet back towards Japan (think he went to sz127 or 129 thinking he was safe). I had the UK build me a naval base (turn order) in British Columbia and basically sneak attacked him. Decimated both fleets, but at least I got to roll the whole battle.

-Subs are overpowered.  one fatal error by Japan cost them 6 transports 2 battleships and 2 acc’s to a single sub, because nothing could hit it… it was a lame way to win for me.

Yeah, we haven’t used those naval engagement rules sense the first game. We do the detection 1:1 ratio for dd/ss. Allow def transports and carriers to hit only air units, but not being able to defend against an undetected sub is just not good. This has been brought up, and I was very surprised it didn’t get addressed in the Nov revision. I understand the intent when attacking dd’s detect subs, and only the dd, cruiser and air units are allowed to fire at them, but the def side is really off IMO when it involves undetected subs. Maybe have ships return fire at 1/2 their normal def value vs undetected subs, or -3, or something?

Another thing is if your attacking, should you be allow to take undetected subs as casualties? As the attacker (or defender) you have the choice of keeping those undetected subs in the battle, submerging them, or even retreating them from the sz (can’t submerge w/enemy dd in sz, have to retreat undet ss). Like I said it was your choice to put an undetected sub in harms way, and once they fire they would be giving up their position right?

-The optional rule to “hold” naval units for bombarding purposes really sucks, and gets abused. Especially with sub prowess.

Good to know, haven’t used it yet

Wild Bill,

I’d like see changes to the Dutch rules too. Holland as a separate player, like France, would be interesting.

Something I’ve thought about is a kind of Vichy rule for Holland and its possessions. If Holland falls, the DEI are rolled for one at a time to represent the aims of the indigenous populations to be “independent” (see: part of the Greater Asia Co-prosperity Sphere). The fleets are rolled for as well.

Holland should also have the ability to be used by the UK as Poland would be. Perhaps if Holland is not taken by the Germans by the end of G1 (or turn 3), the UK can take over her forces.

Regardless, Holland needs some work but nothing that will be a game breaker.

As for submarines. I like the idea of having cruisers changed a bit to make them a more desirable purchase. Giving them the ability to detect subs and hit them on a 6 or less may help–I don’t know about you, but I rarely buy them. I’ve also wondered why sub-hunting aircraft are not available. Bombers with sub-hunting ability would be great (Uboats with AA would be even greater!).

Garg,

––I’m going to “follow along” with your critiques of the G-'39 game. This game seems to have a LOT of potential. Thank you for taking the time to share your opinions and insightful questions/criticisms. They will no doubt benefit us all.

----I’d probably get this map/game right now but we have trouble finding more than 3-4 players for our G-'40 games.

“Tall Paul”

Garg,

First off, thank you immensely for your reports! This is precisely what this game needs to become truly great. There is a thread for FAQs at the top of this forum. Let’s use that for all questions and revision suggestions to keep it all together and flowing:

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=27902.0

HBG is listening to you and the others. I will get with the other HBG guys on this stuff. Many of these are known items we have not worked out just yet. We’ve all been quite busy with new products, holidays, etc. and have not been able to tackle this as well. I’m all for the continuing development of these rules and the invaluable feedback we get here is a huge help.

One question I do have: When a new rules revision is released, what is the best method for showing what has been changed? Summary page? Different color text in the .pdf? Any suggestions on this would be nice.

Thanks again guys for your love and interest in this. Looking forward to getting back into this soon, but am quite busy with other HBG goodies myself. I love this game!

We played this last weekend.  Now most of the group is used to normal axis and allies so we tried this map.  It was fun, (I was Japan my partner made so many mistakes as Germany we stood no chance).

G1.1  He attacked HOLLAND.  I was like 'what are you doing?"  So right out of the gate Holland/Dutch is in the war and as Japan I was not happy that the Dutch where no longer neutral.  He also attacked Yugoslavia turn one (because he wanted Hungray to join him).
G1.2 He finally attacks Poland and barely captures Paris to bring Italy into the game.

No not his fault but he rolls sucked and he lost a lot of units.

Apparently we played the rules wrong because we ruled if you attack a pro neutral it automatically joins the opposing side army.
That being said Yugoslavia becomes UK.  He takes the land units but Yugoslavia’s navy joined UK.

So at this point I’m asking if Japan can sue for peace already?

Russia 1 * Russia now has a pretty strong wall of defense against Germany who is really weak at this point.

Italy 1 * Italy for the most part takes control of the med. sea and thats about it.  (same guy is playing Italy and Germany).  he did so bad on Germany turn 1 he is now afraid to really do anything.

Japan 1 * I make a descent push into China without picking any other fights

UK 1 * They retake Paris

I quit the game, we stood no chance at all.

@Variable:

One question I do have: When a new rules revision is released, what is the best method for showing what has been changed? Summary page? Different color text in the .pdf? Any suggestions on this would be nice.

I would suggest starting a new thread, and you put out an outline of proposed changes before you make them official, so you aren’t retracting stuff from the official rules as we go.

Something like this,

Summary of proposed changes:

1. Treat Holland like an allied minor power under the UK ……

2. Argentina can be activated by either Germany or Italy…

3. Neutral beef-up, add 1 inf to Columbia, 1 inf to Peru…

4. Naval base AA fires one shot per round at 2 or less… or what ever

5. There is a perceived problem with a couple of undetected subs taking out an entire fleet (multiple warships with transports). Subs warfare was more of a hit and run attack, so rule change I’m considering to reflect that is:
   Undetected attacking subs are immune from taking hits from surface ships or air units in the first round of battle. If there is a second round, and the def ship(s) survive they will return fire at normal def values along with any def air units and be able to hit undetected subs (subs gave up their position with continued attack)…maybe not extend it to def air units 2nd rd?

6. Place a minor IC on Stalingrad, and the Russians get scorch earth. Any IC that is turned over to the axis has max damage…

This will also allow us to help test things for/with you, and give feedback (everyone on same page). Then once the rules settle out and you have several changes in order, then you could alter the rule set in red and cross out things that aren’t relevant anymore. If you do a complete revision in the end it is nice for the changes to be noted some how (red text).

@Variable:

One question I do have: When a new rules revision is released, what is the best method for showing what has been changed? Summary page? Different color text in the .pdf? Any suggestions on this would be nice.

I prefer a different text color in the PDF. Was a pain in the ass for me to go through the whole pdf of your last revision again.
And additionally you have to remember, that not everyone might read a thread on these forums and will just download the new pdf.

I agree make all rule changes on different color text.

Guys,

@Gargantua:

@americancyco:

I agree make all rule changes on different color text.

I second this motion.

––This sounds very logical and easy to follow, making it what we need. Much like Yellow ‘highlighting’.

“Tall Paul”

Hey guys,

Variable and I will get together and discuss a lot of these points that are being brought up. Give us a little time to really look at the rules and the mechanics of the game and we will do our best to improve this game. As for now just soldier on and we always encourage house rules!!

Here are the house rules we use with this game

we use the mongolia rules from G40

Germany has to be making 50$ at the start of their turn before they can try to influence Spain/Portugal into joining.  Otherwise Spain is neutral.
Germany must be making 55$ before they can try to influence Turkey into joining.
(This prevents Italy from walking in at the beginning of the game and also keeps SZ 43 out of the game for a while)

When Germany controls Egypt they can try to influence Iraq into joining.
When Axis control Egypt, the UK can try to influence Iran into joining.

Influence spend $5 and roll a d6 on a 1-2 you influence the nation into joining.  One roll per turn only, done during the build tech step.

Also when someone attacks a neutral that neutral should it not be taken over automatically join the opposing side.
Same with attacking a pro leaning ally of the opposing side.  This automatically actives the pro leaning ally.

to represent this on the map i do the following.
nations that can be influenced into joining the axis are yellow until said time the join, then they become black.
Iran is a light green then it becomes tan
Siam is pacific RED

Pro axis / axis minors are (classic Germany grey which becomes black when activated)
Finland (is xeno blue)
Pro allies (light blue)
Dutch (orange)
true neutral (white)
Mongolia (light grey)

Another reason I do this is I agree the ability to not really build up minor axis does more harm then good.
Unless I am reading the rules wrong (and that could of course be the case)  minor axis keep there own money but only collect money for the territory they start with.  So my understanding is if Finland takes over Karelia the 2 collected gets added to Germany.
If Hungary should take over Greece the 2 collected goes to Germany.

The way the rules are (unless I am wrong on this) there really is no point in even taking the minor nations outside their home country because they would not gain anything.  They would expend troops taking over the new territory but not gain extra money to help rebuild the lost troops.

As for convoy.  We never use them, because I have to admit I liked the way convoys where done on the Global map with the convey in the middle of a single sea zone makes it easier to figure out.

americancyco, there are a ton of house rules you could come up with for this game. I like how you bring neutrals over through rolling dice (maybe add to game length), or conquests in their region.

As for the minor axis powers I disagree. Germany does get paid for the captured territories even if the minor powers take them, but I think that is easier to track and there isn’t any question of who to assign the territory to if it is  taken with a combined effort by a couple axis minors, and Germany. Plus the minor powers basically get free income each turn to spend on units to reinforce/replace because Germany gets the income generated from the axis minor original territories (they are basically double dipping).

Maybe I’m not expressing my concern clearly (or you just disagree which is cool  :-D )

Minor allies are limited to producing 3 units (max) per turn.  Ok but since they don’t really collect much money (only the value of their home territory) they really wouldn’t have the money to produce anything more then INF.  Unless they wanted to just save their income for many turns to buy say a plane or something.

Finland, Hungary and Argentina get $3 per turn that is one soldier per turn
Bulgaria and Romania get $4 per turn income, not much better, thats what a soldier with $1 left over?

Sure Germany can build factories in the minor territories but those factories produce German units, in addition to the minor units that can be produced.

If the minor was allowed to collect for it’s captured terriroies then they would collect more money and be able to buy better equipment, faster.

I understand your point of multi-minor nations attacking and taking a territory but since they are all controled by the Germany player it would be pretty easy to just assign the captured territory to any one of the attacking nations, German players choice.