Thanks for letting me know it still works with out of box rules.
Guess French West Africa does make sense to be Free.
After Action Report! Good News! and bad…
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Thanks Bill! I agree with/understand most of your comments. Appreciate your insights.
I have to say, This Holland thing is a joke.
Last game, Holland was never attacked, and neither was the DEI. And ANZAC literally had nothing to do for 4 turns, other than invade south america.
Japan can reach 80+ income without even look at the DEI. And when FEC fails, HOLLAND STAYS F-ING NEUTRAL!?!?!?!
It’s not even pro-allied. You can “reinforce” it, but can’t take it.
The allies get screwed by this.
other notes from Game 2
-Also, can “sneak attacks” by Japan move fleets through allied -screen- ships? like you are 2 SZ’s away from Calcutta, with just a british destroyer in the zone, can you move past the dst “sneaking” and land on the mainland?
-Subs are overpowered. one fatal error by Japan cost them 6 transports 2 battleships and 2 acc’s to a single sub, because nothing could hit it… it was a lame way to win for me.
-The optional rule to “hold” naval units for bombarding purposes really sucks, and gets abused. Especially with sub prowess.
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Thanks Bill! I agree with/understand most of your comments. Appreciate your insights.
I have to say, This Holland thing is a joke.
Last game, Holland was never attacked, and neither was the DEI. And ANZAC literally had nothing to do for 4 turns, other than invade south america.
Japan can reach 80+ income without even look at the DEI. And when FEC fails, HOLLAND STAYS F-ING NEUTRAL!?!?!?!
It’s not even pro-allied. You can “reinforce” it, but can’t take it.
The allies get screwed by this.
Agreed needs to be looked at again for sure.
other notes from Game 2
-Also, can “sneak attacks” by Japan move fleets through allied -screen- ships? like you are 2 SZ’s away from Calcutta, with just a british destroyer in the zone, can you move past the dst “sneaking” and land on the mainland?
We have not allowed the Japanese to pass through blockers the turn they use the attack, but I like your sneaky thinking LOL. The thing is to NCM into the sz with the blocker, or past the blocker the turn before to set-up the following turn. It isn’t as easy to set-up 3 good sneak attacks in the same turn as you would think. The UK can DOW on turn 3, so it doesn’t give you much time to set the table.
Trying to chase down the US when they are determined to stay the F-away is a b���� too. They have NB’s, on their side of the board (or can build some), and the Japanese can only move two spaces. The last time I was the US, the Japanese tried to track me down, so I retreated to the West Coast and blocked him out w/dd’s (I ended up in SZ 137 adjacent to US & Canada). The Japanese kinda gave up trying to hit my fleet, and decided to just hit the Philippines etc… and retreated his fleet back towards Japan (think he went to sz127 or 129 thinking he was safe). I had the UK build me a naval base (turn order) in British Columbia and basically sneak attacked him. Decimated both fleets, but at least I got to roll the whole battle.
-Subs are overpowered. one fatal error by Japan cost them 6 transports 2 battleships and 2 acc’s to a single sub, because nothing could hit it… it was a lame way to win for me.
Yeah, we haven’t used those naval engagement rules sense the first game. We do the detection 1:1 ratio for dd/ss. Allow def transports and carriers to hit only air units, but not being able to defend against an undetected sub is just not good. This has been brought up, and I was very surprised it didn’t get addressed in the Nov revision. I understand the intent when attacking dd’s detect subs, and only the dd, cruiser and air units are allowed to fire at them, but the def side is really off IMO when it involves undetected subs. Maybe have ships return fire at 1/2 their normal def value vs undetected subs, or -3, or something?
Another thing is if your attacking, should you be allow to take undetected subs as casualties? As the attacker (or defender) you have the choice of keeping those undetected subs in the battle, submerging them, or even retreating them from the sz (can’t submerge w/enemy dd in sz, have to retreat undet ss). Like I said it was your choice to put an undetected sub in harms way, and once they fire they would be giving up their position right?
-The optional rule to “hold” naval units for bombarding purposes really sucks, and gets abused. Especially with sub prowess.
Good to know, haven’t used it yet
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Wild Bill,
I’d like see changes to the Dutch rules too. Holland as a separate player, like France, would be interesting.
Something I’ve thought about is a kind of Vichy rule for Holland and its possessions. If Holland falls, the DEI are rolled for one at a time to represent the aims of the indigenous populations to be “independent” (see: part of the Greater Asia Co-prosperity Sphere). The fleets are rolled for as well.
Holland should also have the ability to be used by the UK as Poland would be. Perhaps if Holland is not taken by the Germans by the end of G1 (or turn 3), the UK can take over her forces.
Regardless, Holland needs some work but nothing that will be a game breaker.
As for submarines. I like the idea of having cruisers changed a bit to make them a more desirable purchase. Giving them the ability to detect subs and hit them on a 6 or less may help–I don’t know about you, but I rarely buy them. I’ve also wondered why sub-hunting aircraft are not available. Bombers with sub-hunting ability would be great (Uboats with AA would be even greater!).
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Garg,
––I’m going to “follow along” with your critiques of the G-'39 game. This game seems to have a LOT of potential. Thank you for taking the time to share your opinions and insightful questions/criticisms. They will no doubt benefit us all.
----I’d probably get this map/game right now but we have trouble finding more than 3-4 players for our G-'40 games.
“Tall Paul”
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This game has MAJOR potential. And it’s almost there! There’s alot of awesome things about it, and it’s big enough that you have to commit to the “2 days to play” mantra - which is quite a feature in itself.
A few repairs, and more detailed explanations in the rules are all that is required.
I can’t do it today obviously… but we need a repairs thread or something to streamline all the information we have into a rules update.
More notes…
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Can infantry NCM’d by bombers activate Neutrals? (Norway specifically?)
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Blitzing through holland to get paris is broken. There is absolutely NO REASON to do it. You can’t make it on your double impulse turn. It is better to face two dice at 5, and six more inf at +2 for a total of 22 defence power, and capture Paris turn 1, than it is to let france build, reorganize, suicide it’s navy at you (before it turns Vichy), and get more units on the board. By doing this ALL of the DEI also instantly becomes british, and they get another +15 a turn or whatever from it, and the whole DEI navy instantly… We’ve got to rejig it.
-stats for coastal subs/ships are badly needed.
-Rules for COMINTERN Victory are reccommended. If Russia has it’s own victory conditions, we’re playing a whole new game! Axis, Allies, Comintern! :P Perhaps a sliding scale of Pro-Comintern Neutrals needs to be included as well? And can act as a deterent to the typical invasions of empty neutrals in South America? Mongolia can start pro comintern perhaps?
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Garg,
First off, thank you immensely for your reports! This is precisely what this game needs to become truly great. There is a thread for FAQs at the top of this forum. Let’s use that for all questions and revision suggestions to keep it all together and flowing:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=27902.0
HBG is listening to you and the others. I will get with the other HBG guys on this stuff. Many of these are known items we have not worked out just yet. We’ve all been quite busy with new products, holidays, etc. and have not been able to tackle this as well. I’m all for the continuing development of these rules and the invaluable feedback we get here is a huge help.
One question I do have: When a new rules revision is released, what is the best method for showing what has been changed? Summary page? Different color text in the .pdf? Any suggestions on this would be nice.
Thanks again guys for your love and interest in this. Looking forward to getting back into this soon, but am quite busy with other HBG goodies myself. I love this game!
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We played this last weekend. Now most of the group is used to normal axis and allies so we tried this map. It was fun, (I was Japan my partner made so many mistakes as Germany we stood no chance).
G1.1 He attacked HOLLAND. I was like 'what are you doing?" So right out of the gate Holland/Dutch is in the war and as Japan I was not happy that the Dutch where no longer neutral. He also attacked Yugoslavia turn one (because he wanted Hungray to join him).
G1.2 He finally attacks Poland and barely captures Paris to bring Italy into the game.No not his fault but he rolls sucked and he lost a lot of units.
Apparently we played the rules wrong because we ruled if you attack a pro neutral it automatically joins the opposing side army.
That being said Yugoslavia becomes UK. He takes the land units but Yugoslavia’s navy joined UK.So at this point I’m asking if Japan can sue for peace already?
Russia 1 * Russia now has a pretty strong wall of defense against Germany who is really weak at this point.
Italy 1 * Italy for the most part takes control of the med. sea and thats about it. (same guy is playing Italy and Germany). he did so bad on Germany turn 1 he is now afraid to really do anything.
Japan 1 * I make a descent push into China without picking any other fights
UK 1 * They retake Paris
I quit the game, we stood no chance at all.
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One question I do have: When a new rules revision is released, what is the best method for showing what has been changed? Summary page? Different color text in the .pdf? Any suggestions on this would be nice.
I would suggest starting a new thread, and you put out an outline of proposed changes before you make them official, so you aren’t retracting stuff from the official rules as we go.
Something like this,
Summary of proposed changes:
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Treat Holland like an allied minor power under the UK ……
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Argentina can be activated by either Germany or Italy…
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Neutral beef-up, add 1 inf to Columbia, 1 inf to Peru…
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Naval base AA fires one shot per round at 2 or less… or what ever
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There is a perceived problem with a couple of undetected subs taking out an entire fleet (multiple warships with transports). Subs warfare was more of a hit and run attack, so rule change I’m considering to reflect that is:
Undetected attacking subs are immune from taking hits from surface ships or air units in the first round of battle. If there is a second round, and the def ship(s) survive they will return fire at normal def values along with any def air units and be able to hit undetected subs (subs gave up their position with continued attack)…maybe not extend it to def air units 2nd rd? -
Place a minor IC on Stalingrad, and the Russians get scorch earth. Any IC that is turned over to the axis has max damage…
This will also allow us to help test things for/with you, and give feedback (everyone on same page). Then once the rules settle out and you have several changes in order, then you could alter the rule set in red and cross out things that aren’t relevant anymore. If you do a complete revision in the end it is nice for the changes to be noted some how (red text).
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One question I do have: When a new rules revision is released, what is the best method for showing what has been changed? Summary page? Different color text in the .pdf? Any suggestions on this would be nice.
I prefer a different text color in the PDF. Was a pain in the ass for me to go through the whole pdf of your last revision again.
And additionally you have to remember, that not everyone might read a thread on these forums and will just download the new pdf. -
I agree make all rule changes on different color text.
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Guys,
I agree make all rule changes on different color text.
I second this motion.
––This sounds very logical and easy to follow, making it what we need. Much like Yellow ‘highlighting’.
“Tall Paul”
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Hey guys,
Variable and I will get together and discuss a lot of these points that are being brought up. Give us a little time to really look at the rules and the mechanics of the game and we will do our best to improve this game. As for now just soldier on and we always encourage house rules!!
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Here are the house rules we use with this game
we use the mongolia rules from G40
Germany has to be making 50$ at the start of their turn before they can try to influence Spain/Portugal into joining. Otherwise Spain is neutral.
Germany must be making 55$ before they can try to influence Turkey into joining.
(This prevents Italy from walking in at the beginning of the game and also keeps SZ 43 out of the game for a while)When Germany controls Egypt they can try to influence Iraq into joining.
When Axis control Egypt, the UK can try to influence Iran into joining.Influence spend $5 and roll a d6 on a 1-2 you influence the nation into joining. One roll per turn only, done during the build tech step.
Also when someone attacks a neutral that neutral should it not be taken over automatically join the opposing side.
Same with attacking a pro leaning ally of the opposing side. This automatically actives the pro leaning ally.to represent this on the map i do the following.
nations that can be influenced into joining the axis are yellow until said time the join, then they become black.
Iran is a light green then it becomes tan
Siam is pacific REDPro axis / axis minors are (classic Germany grey which becomes black when activated)
Finland (is xeno blue)
Pro allies (light blue)
Dutch (orange)
true neutral (white)
Mongolia (light grey)Another reason I do this is I agree the ability to not really build up minor axis does more harm then good.
Unless I am reading the rules wrong (and that could of course be the case) minor axis keep there own money but only collect money for the territory they start with. So my understanding is if Finland takes over Karelia the 2 collected gets added to Germany.
If Hungary should take over Greece the 2 collected goes to Germany.The way the rules are (unless I am wrong on this) there really is no point in even taking the minor nations outside their home country because they would not gain anything. They would expend troops taking over the new territory but not gain extra money to help rebuild the lost troops.
As for convoy. We never use them, because I have to admit I liked the way convoys where done on the Global map with the convey in the middle of a single sea zone makes it easier to figure out.
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americancyco, there are a ton of house rules you could come up with for this game. I like how you bring neutrals over through rolling dice (maybe add to game length), or conquests in their region.
As for the minor axis powers I disagree. Germany does get paid for the captured territories even if the minor powers take them, but I think that is easier to track and there isn’t any question of who to assign the territory to if it is taken with a combined effort by a couple axis minors, and Germany. Plus the minor powers basically get free income each turn to spend on units to reinforce/replace because Germany gets the income generated from the axis minor original territories (they are basically double dipping).
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Maybe I’m not expressing my concern clearly (or you just disagree which is cool :-D )
Minor allies are limited to producing 3 units (max) per turn. Ok but since they don’t really collect much money (only the value of their home territory) they really wouldn’t have the money to produce anything more then INF. Unless they wanted to just save their income for many turns to buy say a plane or something.
Finland, Hungary and Argentina get $3 per turn that is one soldier per turn
Bulgaria and Romania get $4 per turn income, not much better, thats what a soldier with $1 left over?Sure Germany can build factories in the minor territories but those factories produce German units, in addition to the minor units that can be produced.
If the minor was allowed to collect for it’s captured terriroies then they would collect more money and be able to buy better equipment, faster.
I understand your point of multi-minor nations attacking and taking a territory but since they are all controled by the Germany player it would be pretty easy to just assign the captured territory to any one of the attacking nations, German players choice.
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I get your point of how the minor axis powers can’t grow to buy more units, but it also keeps them from getting to big IMO. I also see that these powers are contributing mostly inf, unless you purchase some art for them, and allow mech built further back (like Bulgaria) to pair up keeping those combo’s together heading towards Russia. I think that is what the designers had in mind though when they put this mechanic together. This gives the Germans a steady flow of inf/art needed at the front to continue the assault, and it also keeps those captured Russian territories occupied so they don’t sprout up partisans as the slower moving inf move up. I also think that the steady flow of units these minor powers add to the game basically for free is a very powerful tool for the Germans, I wouldn’t want them to add more resources to them closest to the front as the game goes on, plus it would also weaken the German econ (just MO).
Another thing is that if you allowed them to capture territories for themselves for income I think you would run into placement problems as the game goes on. They can only drop 3 units at their capital. Take Romania for example, they would be the most logical choice to capture territories because they are closest to the front and have the largest starting income (6 IPCs). Theoretically Romania could claim nearly every Russian territory that the axis take going deep into Russia. Why do you need them to buy air units when Germany could do it, and they all fight together. I think the idea was to have the minor powers supply the man power, and the Germans to do the heavy lifting. You want to build tanks (for 5 IPCs for Pete’s sake) at the front, then have Germany build a minor IC.
One more thing is that when we play (I believe others do too) we have all the minor axis powers use the same color (light gray Germans from Revised I think), so we don’t track them individually once they are all at war. At times we may even swap them out for Germans (chips) because they are essentially the same to stack easier once they get to Russian lands. I know there are some that keep them all separated (probably use some house rules), but I simply don’t have the units for it, but feel free to do what you want, this game screams house rules.
Edit, no need to answer here, I will re-post this blue part to the proper thread to continue Thanks WB (see link to follow up)
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28924.0
I do have a quick question for the creators: If the Germans build a naval base on Romania (or Bulgaria) can the Romanians (or Bulgarians) build ships in the Black Sea to help protect an axis fleet, or do they only produce ground/air units? Are they allowed to build a ftr for a German (or Italian) carrier in the Black Sea? Obviously they would have to had saved some IPCs.
This leads me to a 2nd question (similar to one asked before, still under review), say the Germans build a minor IC in both Romania, and Bulgaria, and a NB for Bulgaria (sz43 Black Sea). I know the Germans could build ships in the Black Sea from the Bulgarian IC w/NB, but would the same NB servicing sz43 also allow for ships to be built from Germany’s Romanian IC? Can a NB from one territory service an IC from a different territory (for ship building) as long as they share the same sz, and are owned by the same power. This is also in question if UK builds an IC for Cairo which comes w/NB servicing the Med sz47 (allows you to build ships in sz47). Can the same Cairo IC (would also be adjacent to sz64) also build ships in the Red Sea using the Upper Egypt NB that services sz64 as long as they owned both Cairo & Upper Egypt?
Further more in a similar situation as above, can a NB in a territory of your ally serve the requirements of shipbuilding for an IC you own as long as they are adjacent to the same sz? Could an Italian NB that services a sz next to a German IC fill the requirements of a NB to allow Germany to build ships in said sz?
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I also use the original gray German pieces for my minor axis
Except for Finnland which gets it’s own color because of the funky rules where it can fight w/ Russia, while still being a minor axis and Russia is not at war with Germany.
You know where I think a lot of my views on this come from. The rules for Canada and Union of South Africa being played as their own nations. They are allowed to take over territory and such just like any other major nation. I guess personally I see that as an unfair advantage for the allies and that is probally why I am such a supporter of minor axis being allowed to capture territories.
MY personal opinion to your question about minors building ships (I always ruled they could, because of their lack of needed a factory to build any other type of unit). I never really had it come up because they would never save up that much money.
As for your question about them building fighters on a Germany carrier, I never even thlought of that.
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I see what your talking about with the Commonwealth, it could be viewed as a bit of a double standard I guess. I will say that each Commonwealth power has its own IC to produce units (axis minors just mobilize free units), and playing them as separate powers can be a bit restricting to the UK. I like the option of incorporating Canada & S Africa into the UKs econ and not play them as separate powers (which is what we normally do). So in that case it would be the same, all income goes to UK. We play FEC & Anz as individual powers though.
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I could have missed it but where does it say minor axis build there units for free? We have never played that way.
page 25 says they are limited to producing 3 units per turn.
if they produce for free then there is no reason for them to collect their own income.
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