Unit Lineup speculation/wish list

““reds and whites” is another game. This is Axis and Allies, not World in Flames WW1.”

But the Allies believed that they were reopening the Eastern Front as part of the same war.

Attached some alternative schedules.

USA entering on turn 4 only works if we assume 1 round = 1 year.

GreatWarC.xls

But the Allies believed that they were reopening the Eastern Front as part of the same war.

And they did that AFTER WW1 during the period of 1918-23, fighting for the whites…so different war, different game. The Government and that fought against the Central powers and participated in WW1 was overthrown and once peace was made they are out of the war. Their is no part of WW1 that included battles relating to the civil war and the situation of the communists and other factions. They had their own struggle and it was not even remotely related to the Great War. So their is no need or reality of tying the two separate events as part of the Great War.

Besides the game is already made and the game would not benefit from any Red/White star skirmishes. The “wish list” in any event would benefit from rules and concepts dealing with the Great War, and not the Russian Revolution.

Why not have one continuous war from 1870-1945 tying all the various connected struggles? Oh heck throw in the American Civil War too.

German Mutiny:
On turn 13 the German Navy mutinies.  The mutiny only affects German naval units.  When an attack or move is made, roll a D6; on a 1-4 the attack/move may not proceed.  German forces defend as normal.

Larry has already said what units will be in the game and it will be about as complex as '42.2, USA joins on turn 4 and there will be no techs

I would think that the Russian revolution is triggered by an event, rather then a certain turn.

Could be Russian production being cut down to a certain level. That would keep the Germans, Austrians/Hungarians pressing hard to the east so they might be able to shut down that front. If they take their foot off the throttle, they have to keep fighting the Russians. This would also keep the Ottomans engaged.

Maybe they are given a goal like defeating the Ottomans (conquering Constantinople/Istanbul) by say turn 6-7, and holding the line in Eastern Europe to avoid the revolution leading to its exit.

Could be the loss of original victory cities (or the capital of St Petersburg) causes the Revolution. Russia could start with St Petersburg, Moscow and 2 other orig VC. If they fall below 2 VC’s (St Petersburg +1) the Revolution takes them out of the game. If they capture a victory city (Constantinople), before they lose one of their own they continue the fight, as long as the still hold their capital.

Special Events:

Russian Revolution:
Russian Revolution – Can begin on turn 10.  At the beginning of turn 10 a roll is made to see if Russia goes into a civil war.  On a D6 roll of 1 the country spirals into revolution.  This roll is modified as follows:

-2 to the roll if an allied capital is held by the Central Powers (-1 if contested)
-2 to the roll if Petrograd is held by the Central Powers (-1 if contested)
-1 to the roll if Moscow is held by the Central Powers (-1/2 if contested)
-1/2 to roll (rounded down) per additional Russian or controlled allied territory that is held (-0 if contested)
+1/2 (rounded down) to the roll per enemy territory held by the Russians or its controlled allies (+0 if contested)
+2 to roll if an enemy capital is held by the Allies (+1 if contested)

The roll is made each and every turn afterwards.  If Russia goes into a revolution she will surrender and all her remaining forces (within Russia) are removed from the game.  All other units outside of Russia, including any controlled territories, are considered to belong to the Russian-controlled Allies.  Furthermore, Serbia, Romania, and Montenegro will remain controlled by the Russian player.  However, Serbia will continue to follow the special rules for the “fall of Serbia.”

Effect: Germany gains economic and total control of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belorussia, Kiev, Ukraine and Crimea. German units in any other Russian areas must retreat and the German player gains no benefit from other Russian areas. All Russian units are removed from play.

I don’t see dice rolling and a bunch of modifiers being part of the process (to complex). I could see Russia losing ground causing the collapse. The loss of cities (VCs) in the Russian empire possibly being used as a measuring stick to the Revolution or withdraw from the war.

Are Victory cities going to be part of the game, and if so how many new VCs might there be with the new alignment.

London
Ottawa
Cairo
Paris
Brussels
Rome
Washington
Petrograd
Moscow
Kiev
Bucharest
Belgrade
Warsaw
Berlin
Vienna
Budapest
Sofia
Constantinople

If that’s the plan, then notably, Everyone has a revolution to fight:
Marxists in Russia
Armenians in the Ottoman Empire
Conflicting decisions in the buyout of Italy (those who wanted to be central)
IRA in Britain
German revolutionaries/ Poles in Germany
Black Hand in Austria-Hungary
Pancho Villa in USA
Zaians in French Morocco (weak I know, but I wanted something to fight)

A cohabitation rule would allow the Russian evolution to send Moscow and other territories into a toss-up zone.

I’m not suggesting that the game continues until the Russian civil war is fought to a finish, merely that the conditions post revolution are possible. The RCW started in 1917, and involved the Allies and Central Powers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_civil_war

So…

The Russian revolution occurs. We assume that Germany sends Lenin in to take control.

Russian units are now split into two factions: Bolsheviks (reds) controlled by Germany/CP, and Mensheviks (whites) controlled by the Allies. Perhaps allegiances are determined randomly; more realistically those units still on the front line are more likely to remain loyal, those surrounding Moscow to be solidly Bolshevik.

Germany gets full control of the Bolsheviks, but these units cannot operate outside Russia proper, that is essentially those areas within the modern Russian Federation. G/CP must evacuate these areas, but can move into and take possession of any other European Russian starting areas (those listed above by IL plus Finland). In reality the CP set up several puppet states, but they were firmly under CP control and supplied vast resources to their armies.

White Russian forces remain in play and controlled by the Allies, they are free to move and attack CPs and Bolsheviks anywhere.

If Reds or Whites control Victory cities (assuming these are part of the game) they still count towards winning conditions for either side.

Russian ships are subject to the same conditions; Reds can remain in any SZ adjacent to Russia proper.

New units can be built by either side under appropriate conditions (i.e keep separate incomes for each).

Since the CP will be free to throw its weight into the battles on the Western Front, the Allies will have to decide if its worth keeping the Eastern War going by sending forces into Russia, so forcing the CP to keep units there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War

A few more suggestions:

Only the CP are allowed to attack neutrals. As far as I know, the Allies didn’t do this in WWI, with the dubious exception of Persia, which was already partly occupied.

That’s a awful lot of VCs in the Balkans.

My VCs would be (with more or less the same places for factories):

$ = shipbuilding facility

Washington $

London $
Bombay (no factory)
Cairo (no factory)
Cape Town (no factory)
Halifax $

Paris
Bordeaux $
Marseilles $
Algiers (no factory)
Dakar (no factory)

Petrograd $
Moscow
Warsaw
Kiev
Sebastopol $

Rome $ (Italy starting neutral)
Milan $
Tripoli (no factory)

Belgrade?

Berlin
Essen
Hamburg $
Munich
Konigsburg $
Dar es Salaam (no factory; except a small sausage making facility)

Vienna
Prague
Budapest
Lemberg
Trieste $

Constantinople (no factory)
Ankara (no factory)
Damascus (no factory)
Erzerum (no factory)
Baghdad (no factory)

Note that I think infantry recruitment and placement should be completely independent of factories.

I assume there’ll be an “Anzac Box” for placement of infantry from down under.

@WILD:

I don’t see dice rolling and a bunch of modifiers being part of the process (to complex). I could see Russia losing ground causing the collapse. The loss of cities (VCs) in the Russian empire possibly being used as a measuring stick to the Revolution or withdraw from the war.

Are Victory cities going to be part of the game, and if so how many new VCs might there be with the new alignment.

London
Ottawa
Cairo
Paris
Brussels
Rome
Washington
Petrograd
Moscow
Kiev
Bucharest
Belgrade
Warsaw
Berlin
Vienna
Budapest
Sofia
Constantinople

Your earlier post would make for a very interesting game Flash. The Russian Revolution splintering them into factions fighting each other, and still continue to fight in the big picture as well. Units in certain territories going Red, and others white. Then roll dice to determine the rest. That would be awesome.

With the VC’s I was more or less giving some of the minor powers involved in the war a voice and more themed to capitals. I can’t see 30+ VCs printed on the map, probably much closer to 20 if at all.

Given the static warfare, VCs will in all probability be irrelevant, but it gives a certain flavour to the game. Pushing the enemy into revolution is the most likely winning strategy.

If you read the wiki on the Russian Civil War, you’ll find that there were innumerable factions involved, including “Blacks” & “Greens”. I was trying to keep it simple…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_civil_war

The objective of the game is for the Allied Powers to capture the capitol of either Germany, or Austro-Hungary and the Ottomans by the end of turn 13.  The Central Powers must capture any two of the Allied capitols by the end of turn 13.  Having failed to do this, it is assumed that Germany’s overseas empire is collapsing, and will therefore come to terms (resulting in a draw).  If the Central Powers have taken a capital then it is a peace in their favor, and if they do not then it is a peace in favor of the Allied Powers.

Optionally, the Central Powers can win the game if at the end of any turn their combined income is 175 or more.

An extended game can be played to turn 15 if all agree.

@Flashman:

I’m not suggesting that the game continues until the Russian civil war is fought to a finish, merely that the conditions post revolution are possible. The RCW started in 1917, and involved the Allies and Central Powers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_civil_war

So…

The Russian revolution occurs. We assume that Germany sends Lenin in to take control.

Russian units are now split into two factions: Bolsheviks (reds) controlled by Germany/CP, and Mensheviks (whites) controlled by the Allies. Perhaps allegiances are determined randomly; more realistically those units still on the front line are more likely to remain loyal, those surrounding Moscow to be solidly Bolshevik.

Germany gets full control of the Bolsheviks, but these units cannot operate outside Russia proper, that is essentially those areas within the modern Russian Federation. G/CP must evacuate these areas, but can move into and take possession of any other European Russian starting areas (those listed above by IL plus Finland). In reality the CP set up several puppet states, but they were firmly under CP control and supplied vast resources to their armies.

White Russian forces remain in play and controlled by the Allies, they are free to move and attack CPs and Bolsheviks anywhere.

If Reds or Whites control Victory cities (assuming these are part of the game) they still count towards winning conditions for either side.

Russian ships are subject to the same conditions; Reds can remain in any SZ adjacent to Russia proper.

New units can be built by either side under appropriate conditions (i.e keep separate incomes for each).

Since the CP will be free to throw its weight into the battles on the Western Front, the Allies will have to decide if its worth keeping the Eastern War going by sending forces into Russia, so forcing the CP to keep units there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War

A few more suggestions:

Only the CP are allowed to attack neutrals. As far as I know, the Allies didn’t do this in WWI, with the dubious exception of Persia, which was already partly occupied.

:-o Woah! Very interesting! I though when the allies invaded it was like elite squads! But looks like over 700,000 allies invaded!

Yea after the Great War ended. Another game.

It was in full swing before Germany surrendered. That was the whole point; the Allies were trying to keep the Eastern Front going to keep German armies stationed there, and take pressure off the West.

Once Germany did surrender the Western Allies soon pulled out of Russia.

Russia didn’t just drop out of the war in November 1917. The Whites, supported by the West, kept fighting both CP and Bolsheviks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk_(February_9,_1918)

Severely short of troops to spare, the British and French requested that President Wilson provide American soldiers for the campaign. In July 1918, against the advice of the U.S. War Department, Wilson agreed to the limited participation of 5,000 U.S. Army troops in the campaign, this force, which become known as the “American North Russia Expeditionary Force” [6] (a.k.a. the Polar Bear Expedition) were sent to Arkhangelsk while another 8,000 soldiers, organized as the American Expeditionary Force Siberia,[7] were shipped to Vladivostok from the Philippines and from Camp Fremont in California. That same month, the Canadian government agreed to the British government’s request to command and provide most of the soldiers for a combined British Empire force, which included Australian and Indian troops. A Royal Navy squadron was sent to the Baltic under Rear-Admiral Edwyn Alexander-Sinclair. This force consisted of modern C-class cruisers and V- and W-class destroyers. In December 1918, Sinclair sallied into Estonian and Latvian ports, sending in troops and supplies, and promising to attack the Bolsheviks “as far as my guns can reach”. In January 1919, he was succeeded in command by Rear-Admiral Walter Cowan.

AFTER THE WAR. and only 5K troops. The only part of Russia that was occupied by allied forces BEFORE NOV 1918,  were some US Marines and Japanese taking Vladivostok. The allies simply could not fight while the Great War was going on. So separate and different war.

5,000-8,000 doesn’t even represent one infantry unit. That is like a brigade let alone a division of soldiers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Russia_Campaign

OK before the war ended about 13K troops did land, but that’s not even one infantry. ( barely a division, when 1 piece is about 12 divisions) Technically you are right, but the war really started after Nov 1918, when allied troops were freed up to fight elsewhere.