German jungle fighters

@ABWorsham4

So the what if is “What if the Finns mobilised more troops that would free up German forces?”

And the question is where I would send them. Okay.

I think it might be easier by saying where I would not send them.

I am also assuming that the “Mountain Corps” are just infantry, not Gebrigsjager or Alpini, considering the corps were entirely made up of regular infantry divisions.

Italy (Germany’s doing really well here, no hope of pushing the Allies out with one corps, so just do what we did historically)

Norway (almost nothing there except the sabotaging of the heavy water plant, but any hope of redoing the bomb is long gone)

The Atlantic Wall (Allies aren’t landing there until 1944, other areas are much more dire)

Leningrad Front (Feels like the time for storming Leningrad is long gone and a corps wouldn’t make a difference, maybe if the Kursk attack was cancelled entirely and was redirected, but tanks don’t work well in cities)

So that leaves:

Army Group South

Balkans

Kursk

Mainly because I’m more knowledgable about this area I would probably give it to Kursk (to strengthen the attacks) or Army Group South (to hold the line against the Soviet counteroffensive, allowing Manstein’s guys to continue pushing on Kursk rather than racing southwards to defend). I also have an odd affinity for Kursk out of all the Eastern Front battles.

And I feel there’s no way to get Tito.

As we both know, this wouldn’t change much in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully Manstein does better though.

@Fishmoto37:

@Gargantua:

@Fishmoto37:

Why do I need to have a favorite Mig? Oh well, if I must I will pick the Mig 15. When it first appeared on the world scene (Korea) it was superior to all straight wing jets. It stopped the B-29 raids on N. Korea until the F-86 was fully operational for combat. That was kind of a big deal to me when I was a kid. That was the time in my life when I was making plastic aircraft models. Yes, we had those way back in the early 50s.

You guys had WHEELS wheels back in the stone age??!?! ;)

�  Not only that, but we had aircraft with metal skin also.

  We also had steel wheels with rubber tires mounted on them that were held up with nothing but air. And also we had some really big WHEELS like Ike, MacArthur, Marshall and well the list is long. I think I made a humor. I like Ike!

I’d announce to the Allies that I had the bomb and that It was ready to deploy at any sign of invasion. I’d have Goebels make a film as if I had several and film it as I blew up Moscow.

The officially stated target for Barbarossa was the Astrakhan-Archangel line.

they used every tank they could spare all makes and models,not like the movie,the king tigers were the spearheads

@balungaloaf:

without US aid assistance via lend lease, without the allied strategic bombing campaign tying up much of the luftwaffe and anti air defenses, and without the threat of invasion keeping millions of german soldiers in europe, the soviets would have been smashed before they could ever set up a counter attack.  if moscow was taken, the people would give up on their communist overlords and capitulate.

You alluded to the pressure the U.S. and Britain put on Germany; and I fully agree that pressure was immense. Even in 1940–before the U.S. was technically at war–its industrial production created profound implications for the balance of power in Europe. With massive numbers of American aircraft being produced and sent to Britain, Germany had to either a) find a way to keep pace, industrially, with the U.S. and Britain combined, or b) watch its cities and people be destroyed by waves of British and American bombers. The invasion of the Soviet Union was largely precipitated by the desire to allow Germany to attain the raw materials and industrial capacity to achieve outcome A.

However, keeping pace with the production capacity of the U.S. and Britain also required Germany to invest heavily in its own production facilities. That investment diverted effort from what would have been immediately useful production against the Soviet Union. During 1942, the Soviets out-produced the Germans 3:1 or even 4:1 in all major land categories of production, and even out-produced the Germans 2:1 in planes.

Prior to launching Operation Barbarossa, the German military staff had incorrectly believed that the Soviet Army consisted of 200 divisions. Divisions which had fought very poorly in the Soviets’ 1940 invasion of Finland. In the spring of 1941, the German Army consisted of 150 divisions; 100 of which were used for the invasion of the Soviet Union. But in the months after the invasion, the Soviets were quickly able to expand the size of their army to about 600 divisions. Given the imbalance of sheer numbers, it is very unlikely Germany could have prevailed in a war against the Soviet Union even despite its military’s advantage on a man-for-man basis.

@finnman:

@gnasape:

Looks like an episode of “Deadliest Warrior” on Spike TV!  Someone should contact them about doing this.

Best show ever, The SS just fought the veit cong.

Good show, not great show. Had the show had this face off ( Marine Raiders vs Waffen SS) it could hold the title: great show.

KurtGodel7, very good post, thank you.

I’m still not convinced however, I’ll reply to a few of your points below further:

Germany desperately needed the Russian oil by 1943 (as well as Russian grain which I will discuss further below).  That they failed to take the Caucasus during this time was their last realistic chance at victory, IMO.  However, had they taken the oil wells, but with the Russians destroying them in the process as was quite likely, would the Germans be able to restore the flow of oil in sufficient time? It might take months, even years to rebuild the necessary infrastructure in the best of circumstances, let alone during a brutal war.  The German industry was already hard pressed to supply the necessary armaments and did not have a great deal of experience with oil industry in the first place.  I think they would not have been able to do this.

The same idea goes for the chromium, vanadium, etc., though this would be less difficult for the Germans to accomplish (or mitigate as you also suggest) than the oil problem.

While Germany might have been able to supply an equivalent amount of money, material and engineers to work on their atomic program, there simply were much fewer top nuclear physicists in all Europe than existed in the US.  Consequently, it would have probably cost more and taken longer than the US program for this reason alone.  I have no doubt they could have eventually done it, but I don’t see how they develop nuclear weapons before the allies developed a delivery system that could get through their defenses.

The German V-2 was a technological marvel, but other than size, no more advanced than the rockets being built by Dr. Goddard.  After the war, when Dr. Goddard was able to examine a captured V-2, he was convinced the Germans had stolen his work.  And the Germans might have because most of his designs were on file in the US patent office, available for public viewing (which the Germans did prior to the war).  I think had the Americans wanted to (and Dr. Goddard certainly did) they could have built a superior rocket in a couple months and have it mass-produced in six.  As the A-bombs designs at that time were quite heavy, it might have taken longer than that to build a nuclear capable rocket…but how much longer?

Alternatively, the Allies could have either copied the German jets to enable a delivery system, or devise other means (boats/submarines? special ops?) to deliver these weapons.

In addition, I consider the German attack on Russia to be about food as well as oil  The Ukraine was the breadbasket of Europe, and helped the Germans tremendously in 1943.  But food was scarce in 1944 and onward.  Partly this was due to Russian recovery of territory.  But it was also because the Ukraine was normally not sufficient by itself to feed Germany (the year of the capture of Ukraine by the Germans was one of the best years for Ukrainian agriculture as the weather was nearly perfect).  Of course, the poor treatment of the Ukrainians by the Germans did not lend itself to helping this problem either. In order to assure itself of adequate food, I think the Caucasus (the next logical food source) was needed.