Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

Jenn will probably log on tomorrow and answer some other question besides looking at my reason why CoH is a bad idea.  That would take too much thinking.

Okay, I explained both rules to my 9 year old son.  Grasshopper and others have said they prefer simpler over complicated (I think Jimmy did too in the Neutrals thread) and this seemed like the best possible test.  A little background, he learned how to play classic a couple of months ago and, given he only has like 8 weeks experience, and that only 1 game a weekend (or we’d NEVER get anything done!) he has a pretty good understanding of the game.

I set the board down in front of him (the one for income) and I placed the American marker down on 60 IPC.  I handed him 87 IPC and said:  “You saved 7 IPC from last round.” (He immediately said “but Mom!  That’s stupid, why would you save 7 IPC!  I could get 2 Infantry for 7 IPC!”  I told him that maybe he was holding out for a submarine or transport and he took that as a valid reason.)  “So you saved 7 IPC, now you collected 60 IPC because that’s where your token is on the board.” (okay…) The tough part was explaining national objectives, I told them there were these special territories on the board that were worth nothing to everyone except special countries - like wild cards.  “Now you have 20 IPC in bonus income.”  We’re all good with that.

I told him for every 40 IPC he had he got to roll a free technology die. (He loves technology, I introduced it a couple of weeks ago and he’s blown more cash on that then on anything else except Battleships!).  Then I tried to tell him - no wait, you can’t use those 27 IPC because they’re special.  Swear to the internet gods he said, and I quote “No they are NOT, they are just like these over there!” and he pointed to the other 60 IPC.

Imagine explaining that over, and over, and over, AND OVER to hundreds of internet users over the next two years.  The “only these special IPC” rule submitted by Mantlefan and not really supported by anyone else - at least no one else seems to be able to really understand what he’s trying to say - and no, I don’t think he does either - is SO COMPLICATED as to render the entire system useless.  “Why cant I just use all my money?”  Simple, eloquent - easy.

Whatever money you have is the money you have.  Even a 9 year old figured that out.  We, as adults, are trying to make something “simpler” by making it WAY more complicated!

@mantlefan:

YG says
@Young:

What about my idea to make the R&D phase last in the turn sequence, this would go a long way when rewarding income and NOs gained within the same turn.

You say
@Cmdr:

It is that way, Grasshopper.

Currently:
Your turn…
Take whatever cash you have (saved + collected) and find out how many free dice you have.
Take whatever dice you purchased during your purchase units phase and add it to your free dice.
Your technologies, if found, take effect now - just before your opponent’s turn

Where does it say in post 1 that the R&D Phase is at the end? YG says it should be moved, you say it already is, but I don’t see it anywhere. Please quote the portion of the rule that says that. I have read it 10 times and still can’t find it.

@Cmdr:

@mantlefan:

Where in post 1 does it say that it happens at the end of the turn?

In the rule.  If you are not going to read the rules, then maybe you shouldnt be participating.

Right below the chart, it states that all technologies are applied at the end of your turn.  There are no surprise “gotchas, I have LRA now” situations.  If that’s the basis for your argument, then we’ve invalidated it and can now proceed.

See!  I knew you were not even reading the rules!  If you were, you’d have seen the “finallized” rule as listed.  (It’s in the next post.)  You were probably skipping around in pages and were erroneiously told that page 1 was the final rule - that was the starting point, the rule that was voted into existence with the condition it be ironed out in discussion!  There you go, as you can plainly see, it’s already moved to the end of the turn sequence. (It was moved in one of the first few pages, just not codified.  The point was raised of ambush technologies, and was later declared by consensus that it be moved to the end before being applied to give everyone time to adjust their position.)

@Cmdr:

Research and Develop New Technologies Phase

**A nation is permitted to conduct research and develop new weapons provided they are at war and control their own capitols.  China and France may never conduct research of develop weapons, under any circumstances.

Each nation may have free dice, purchased dice or both free and purchased dice given their position on the board and their willingness to purchase dice.

Free dice are determined by the following chart:**

• $10 - 49 IPC = 1 Roll

• $50 - 89 IPC = 2 Rolls

• $90 - 119 IPC = 3 Rolls

• $120 - 149 IPC = 4 Rolls

• $150 - 224 IPC = 5 Rolls

• $225 + IPC = 6 Rolls

**Nations may purchase any number of extra dice at $15 IPC per die, however.  A roll of six on a six-sided die represents a successful breakthrough, all failures are lost and there are no “technology tokens.”  No nation may develop more than one weapon system per round regardless how many sixes are rolled on the die.

The following represents the new technology list, the previous lists are discarded.**

Research and Development Chart

Your artillery pieces now support up to two attacking infantry.  Each infantry paired with the artillery, and the artillery piece hits on a 2 or less in combat.

Mechanized Infantry may now blitz in combat, per armored unit rules, they may also be paired with an artillery to attack at 3 or less.

Your fighters attack at a 4 or less, defend at a 5 or less and intercept bombing raids at a 2 or less.

Your fighters and tactical bombers may now move 6 spaces (7 if paired with an airbase.)  Your strategic bombers may now move 8 spaces (9 if paired with an airbase).

Your strategic bombers may now drop up to two regular infantry units (defined as not mechanized infantry) provided the bomber has a legal landing zone after combat is finished.  Bombers may not drop infantry in non-combat movements and both the bomber and the infantry units must attack the same territory together.

Your bombers may now fire two dice, each one hits at a 4 or less.

Your industrial complexes are cheaper to build and repair twice as fast. Major complexes now cost 24 IPC and upgrading from a minor complex to a major complex now costs 12 IPC.  Standard placement restrictions apply.  Each IPC applied to damage on your complexes now repairs two damage markers.  This effect does not apply to Airbases and Naval Bases.

_You receive extra income due to sales of warbonds. Roll 2 six sided dice, take the die with the higher number, add two to the value and that is the amount collected in addition to any other source of income you are entitled to receive.   _5) Improved Naval Bases (Combine the following):

• Improved Warships
  ** Battleships now contain an Anti-Aircraft Gun.  For each defending battleship, you may now fire at up to 3 attacking aircraft during opening fire.
  ** Submarines now cost 5.
  ** Aircraft Carriers may now recover fighters when damaged.
  ** Cruisers now cost 9 IPC, move 3 spaces (regardless of if there is a naval base to launch from or not.)
  ** Destroyers may now shore bombard at 2 or less.
  ** Transports may now carry and two ground units, regardless of type.

6. Improved Airbases

• Radar Your land based anti-aircraft guns (including both moveable guns as well as guns affixed to facilities) now hit on a 2 or less in opening fire.
• Rockets Each of the airbases your nation controls may fire one rocket at an enemy facility or base within 4 spaces of the airbase that is firing the rocket.  Only one rocket per facility or base may be launched.

**Once you have achieved a scientific breakthrough you cannot receive it again.  Should you achieve another breakthrough that you already have earned, reroll your success until you achieve a new technology.

Nations that have all six technologies cannot roll more research dice - neither the free dice, nor the purchased dice.  ALL TECHNOLOGIES ARE APPLIED AT THE END OF YOUR TURN (emphasis added for those who did not find it before.)**

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The following are sanctioned optional rules.  These rules are optional, you do not have to incorporate them if you do not want too!

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The Research and Development Phase is no longer an optional rule.  Instead, players are allowed to choose not to use Research and Development as an official house rule.

Players may also choose to use the optional rule of technology tokens - as per Anniversary rules.

Players may also choose to use the 4:2 rule for purchased dice per the AARe and AA50e rules.__

@mantlefan:

Great. Now you’ve unilaterally determined what the final rule is. You admit it wasn’t codified, but then say it’s the final rule. So much for democracy.

She does that, don’t worry about it.

On your scenario with your child.

1: why are NO’s not included?  
2: How is counting your money simpler than looking at your income token and then adding the NO’s you hold?

In the example, 27ipcs aren’t special, 7 are: because they were saved from the previous round.  Still…its irrelevant because how many ipcs you hold doesn’t matter…we’re looking at your income token.

Let me discuss some of the finer points of the rule.

1)  The Free Dice Chart is there to reward countries for existing, that is why you get 1 die for pretty much not being captured.  If you cannot qualify for that one die, you are probably about to be captured, so you won’t be too worried about technology (At least the imaginary people living in your country) as you are probably too busy packing all your belongings and becoming Refugees anyway!

2)  From there the price chart increases SIGNIFICANTLY.  50 - 89 IPC for 2 rolls is about where Japan, Germany and the United States are going to be for most of the game, everyone else will be at 1 roll per game.  That seems about right, these were the three biggest economies and militaries ON THE GAME BOARD for most of the time Global has been out and played.  It is only appropriate that the United States, Germany and Japan have more resources to throw away on technologies than, for instance, Italy or Australia.

3. France and China are barred for two reasons.  France is barred because it usually never has its capitol anyway, on the off chance it does get it’s capitol, it is unrealistic to assume they immediately start hiring scientists.  China is barred because that was the decision made in the vote that created the free dice system.  Not only that, but I believe Larry also barred China from technology in his renditions of the game as well.

4)  The technology tree is really my baby.  What I did here was to take some of the technologies usually looked down on (War Bonds, Rockets, Radar) and combine them with the ones everyone seems to drool over (Long Range Aircraft, Heavy Bombers).  The idea was to match them in a realistic fashion and in a way that a technology perceived as stronger off set the technology perceived as weaker.  Then some tweaks were added in, some originally, some from the discussion thread.  For instance, Battleships getting AA Gun was from the thread - it was originally 3 hit battleships.  War Bonds being best of 2 dice +2 was an original submission and was designed to offset SBR damage.  That was the motivation behind the technologies in the way they were combined.  Lastly the reason it was combined into one chart was two fold: A)  It was plain easier to add two technologies together for all 12 technologies and reduce the chart to six options.  and B)  we only have six sided dice. (Fine, you and I might have 30 sided dice, 8 sided, whatever.  Joe Schmuck who just bought the game and never played RPGs probably only has 6 sided dice to be found anywhere on his block, let alone his house.)  That pretty much locked us into 6 technologies, or 2 trees and I wanted to avoid having people who already only had a 3% chance get dropped to less than half of that.

5)  The turn order was changed REALLY early.  The idea was to negate “ambushes” ala Axis and Allies Revised - Out of the Box rules where LRA on Germany 1 became an “I win” button.  So we applied the same solution that Larry Harris applied for AAR, we moved the application of technologies to the end of the round.  Since that was moved, and since it was voted on to have free dice based on what cash you had, it only made sense to have the actual dice rolls at the end too.  So basically, you buy your units and your technology dice during purchase units and after you collect your income, you determine how many total dice you have to throw.

6)  So essentially, I took all of what was said and agreed upon, made sure it did not violate what was voted on (at the time, none did - only when the you only count certain income complaint was issued did we have a contradiction between the two) and put it in one coherent post.  Later I expounded upon what exactly each technology said (instead of a brief description like LRA means your figs, tacs and strats get +2 range - which works for us, but not for those unfamiliar with our terminology.)

@JimmyHat:

@mantlefan:

Great. Now you’ve unilaterally determined what the final rule is. You admit it wasn’t codified, but then say it’s the final rule. So much for democracy.

She does that, don’t worry about it.

On your scenario with your child.

1: why are NO’s not included?  
2: How is counting your money simpler than looking at your income token and then adding the NO’s you hold?

I did not see them.

Because the INCOME COLLECTED is based on where the marker is on the Collect Income chart - which does not include National Objectives.  Either we’re counting everything, in which case, let’s count everything, or we’re only talking about what territories you control at the end of the round.

Because you do not have to explain to someone that has never played why half their income does not count.  It’s an argument I want to avoid by making this as simple as possible.  You collect 100 IPC, you look at the chart.  You collect 3 IPC, you look at the chart.

CHina was not included because China is the most likely to save income because it can place unlimited units.

@JimmyHat:

Also this whole tech structure puts the corn cob to the minor powers.  Guess it might only be best in 2v2 games or less.

How so?  Now these minor powers actually have a chance to get technology - whereas before they had no chance to get technology.  If anything, it gives them an actual shot at participating and thus not getting over run just because Japan decided to drop 60 IPC on the market over 6 turns and got every major technology out there.

Yeah, simple.  Like take your current income from the income token…currently at the beginning of your turn…add NO ipcs from NO’s you hold currently…like right now.  And then see how much tech you have.

@Cmdr:

@JimmyHat:

Also this whole tech structure puts the corn cob to the minor powers.  Guess it might only be best in 2v2 games or less.

How so?  Now these minor powers actually have a chance to get technology - whereas before they had no chance to get technology.  If anything, it gives them an actual shot at participating and thus not getting over run just because Japan decided to drop 60 IPC on the market over 6 turns and got every major technology out there.

wrong. All nations were on par for tech.  You pay 6 ipcs, you get a die.  Then you roll to see if you get tech.  With your system the little guys are getting the shaft because they cannot afford 15ipcs for a die let alone 48 for 4.

@mantlefan:

Because the income you save and the income you plunder do not represent your per turn production capacity.

Also, Jen, that long post of yours at the end of the last page only shows how one person who maybe thinks they are acting objectively in reality puts a bunch of subjectivity in. What makes your changes minor enough to still be along the lines of what was voted other than that they are yours? Why are you right when you say a change is too big but if someone disagrees they are wrong?

The income you plunder represents resources, materials, bullion, scientific research, valid intelligence and other goods taken from a nation.  It does TOO represent national production, you don’t have to produce as much because you stole it!

@JimmyHat:

wrong. All nations were on par for tech.  You pay 6 ipcs, you get a die.  Then you roll to see if you get tech.  With your system the little guys are getting the shaft because they cannot afford 15ipcs for a die let alone 48 for 4.

No.  No one has to buy a die.  Major nations get 2, minor nations get 1.  It’s the way it’ll mostly turn out, I don’t expect people to buy dice.  If we’re worried about them buying dice, raise the price to 30 IPC a die!  I want free dice, I just dont want to ban purchased dice!

Please God make it stop.

@Vance:

Please God make it stop.

2

@Cmdr:

@JimmyHat:

wrong. All nations were on par for tech.  You pay 6 ipcs, you get a die.  Then you roll to see if you get tech.  With your system the little guys are getting the shaft because they cannot afford 15ipcs for a die let alone 48 for 4.

No.  No one has to buy a die.  Major nations get 2, minor nations get 1.  It’s the way it’ll mostly turn out, I don’t expect people to buy dice.  If we’re worried about them buying dice, raise the price to 30 IPC a die!  I want free dice, I just dont want to ban purchased dice!

notice my use of past tense, as in earlier versions of the game.

I just wish she’d respond to me sometimes.  Instead of misreading what I wrote or ignoring it all together.  Not like I didn’t call it though.

I’ll vote for anything, just please make it stop.

I CAN’T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!

@JimmyHat:

I just wish she’d respond to me sometimes.  Instead of misreading what I wrote or ignoring it all together.  Not like I didn’t call it though.

I do, I did not feel it necessary to state to you that the idea behind this whole thing was to give the minors at least one free chance a round to get a technology and thus not infringe on their ability to keep themselves sovereign.  Perhaps I should have, you were not there for the original discussion.  It was later added that it should be based on what cash you have so that you could save a few IPC and still get your free die.  Then we wondered how it would work for bigger nations - after all, they have stronger economies, more resources and more historical accuracy in actually developing weapons, but we did not want it to get out of hand, so a tiered system was created.  This discussion was to determine 3 things:

1. What should the tiers be?
2. What should the cost of extra dice be?  Should they be banned altogether?
3. Do we need to refine each individual technology, or are they fine as listed now?

All changing the income brackets would do - in effect - is to destroy the original premise of the rule:  To give minor technologies easier access to technologies.  Anything that makes this fundamental change moot, should be immediately discarded.  We had two votes, both votes were to make it easier for minor countries to get technologies.

Now, your request to make it optional was reasonable, it did not effect the ease of minor countries to get technologies, and was incorporated with little debate.  YG and Vance, primarily, wanted application of technology at the end.  To be honest, I thought it already was in Global, and Anniversary and basically everything since the first day LHTR 2.0 came out for Revised!  Otherwise, I would have stipulated it to begin and it would have been copied over when YG copied the agreed upon rule for further refinement.  Battleships went from being 3 hit to 2 hit but with AA Guns.  Carriers went from carrying 3 fighters to being able to recover fighters when damaged.  Etc.

Basically, refinements are getting in, clarifications are getting in.  I am balking at acquiessing to having major changes that negate the purpose of the new rule from getting in unopposed.  It could still get in - assuming we either have a vote or Vance and YG scream at me and tell me that we need to change it.   Even then I’ll give it one more big push to keep it out - it violates the spirit of the rule!  We wanted MINORS to have FREE access to technology.  We did not want you to have to control half the globe to get one die.

Now, the price of dice are very high to prevent major nations from buying up a bunch of extra dice!  Let’s be frank, Italy, England, Australia are not buying dice even at 5 IPC each.  America, Germany, Japan would buy dice at 20 IPC each if they were motivated - they can afford it!  They just won’t buy as many dice.

I’m good with discussing the price of extra dice.  I really am.  We can even discuss the brackets so that they are high/low enough that you are comfortable with them.  What I won’t do is stop ANZAC (or someone) from saving 2 IPC to qualify for 1 die.