UK Gov't in exile Discussion - Delta 1

This is how I would imagine a good UK Government in exile rule, and although many of these ideas have already been expressed in this thread, I thought I would put together my own wish list.

UK Government in Exile (Version #9)

If an Axis power captures London the following things will happen.

1. The axis power controlling London will receive all of UK’s (Europe) IPCs

This is the rule for every capital that falls and I see no point in complicating things with some sort of situational exception, and if Germany or Italy takes London with great losses, than it deserves all the UK cash.

2. Quebec immediately becomes the new capital of the UK (Europe).

Yes, technically Ottawa should be the new capital. However, on the game board, Quebec already has a minor IC and is adjacent to 3 different sea zones, besides the city of Ottawa and the Province of Quebec is only separated by a narrow river (so lets not have any hang ups about location)

3. America and the Soviet Union immediately enter the war.

No point in changing the Alpha+2 rule regarding America, and I think we can all agree to incorporate the alpha+3 rule about Russia joining, because Joseph Stalin would be more than concerned by the rapid growth and continental supremacy of the axis powers.

4. All French units immediately become German units (even if London falls to Italy). For example: a French destroyer becomes a German destroyer and a French infantry becomes a German infantry all in the location they occupied at the time of capture.

With the UK government thrown back across the Atlantic, the French army accepts the puppet government in Paris and begins fighting for the Germans.

5. Sea zones #109 & #119 are no longer convoy disruption zones. However, sea zone #110 has now become a convoy disruption zone.

There would never be a reason to send supplies to England while London is under axis control, even if the allies wanted to send materials to Scotland, it would be a suicide mission with the massive concentration of axis military activity in the area. Conversely, the English channel has become a vital waterway for Axis supplies and is now vulnerable to allied disruptions.

6. Scotland will become a pro-allied neutral territory with a standing army of 4 infantry + any British units that were in Scotland during the capture of London.

The people of Scotland would feel abandoned, and they won’t be motivated to send taxes across the ocean, instead they will become a pro-allied neutral territory for all intensive purposes.

7. The British Government will be able to return only once. If the UK or an ally liberates London, the government has the choice when to return to England. If London falls a second time while the government is there, they will not be allowed to exile again.

the specifics of this will need to be worked out.

Additional clarifications:

The UK government in exile will not be able to purchase units until the next round, after they collect IPCs at the end of their next turn.

it sucks for Germany that the UK still get to buy stuff, but at least they have to wait a round.

The UK may collect income for all original territories they control on the Europe side of the board.

Scotland, and any other neutral territories that were controlled by the UK at the time of occupation do not generate income for the new government.

The alpha+2 German national objective of, $5 each turn Germany has control of London, has now been changed to each turn an Axis power has control of London.

The people of Scotland would feel abandoned, and they won’t be motivated to send taxes across the ocean, instead they will become a pro-allied neutral territory for all intensive purposes.

HAHA!  I bet none of the conquered peoples are going to be motivated to send taxes…unless forcibly motivated.

@Vance:

Jennifer, can you please give provide a version of the Gov’t in Exile rule that you would support?  If you do that I will add it as “Version 9” to the poll and everyone can vote on your idea.  thanks.

I thought I had given one, Vance.

Here’s my vision of British Government in Exile.

1)  Some axis power takes London.
2)  That axis power collects 100% of London’s treasury, per standard rules.
3)  The British capitol is re-established in Ontario using the same rules as one uses for liberating a capitol.
4)  (does not have to be, but I would like it to be:)  1 Minor Industrial Complex is added to Ontario to represent the new Government.
5)  Ontario now collects for all British holdings on the Europe board until London is liberated.

Should London ever be liberated, then it cannot go into exile again.  So if it falls a second time, that’s it, no more England.

Jimmy,

I don’t see why we need to drop the SZ 109 convoy.  It works great for Germany until they get London and then it works for the Americans (assuming Germany lets them get there.)

I concede adding London back as an NO.

@JimmyHat:

Jenn you should put together a list of ideas for the exile gov.  That way we have a few versions to look at and play test to see if one works better over the other.

I like what you have here and will add comments in red.

@Cmdr:

I see the gov’t in Exile as just that, the UK Capitol moved to Ontario until London is liberated.

1. Why are the limited to just Canada?
2. If they are limited to just Canada, what’s the point?
   arguably the only real point is to give the UK player something to do.  7ipcs isn’t going to largely affect the game.

I don’t think Canada should start with any money.  Whatever they saved from England is lost paying to move the government and creating a government in Canada.  The rest is captured by Germany, Italy or Japan when London falls.  Basically, like any other capitol which makes sense to me.
I agree.

Canada collects on the next round for all liberated territories, again, just like if you liberated the British capitol, which makes sense to me.

Likewise, they can use any British complexes currently in British control, as any capitol would.

Given these conditions, it is reasonable for Canada to expect to make as much as Australia or India for a few rounds at least, until the Axis can take away enough land.
Well, with these options I don’t see why Canada would need extra production, Safrica still being viable.  I think this is going to make UK really tough, they will have the ipcs to still fight in Africa and defend the Atlantic.  Perhaps by adding in Vance’s idea of dropping the sz109 convoy and adding the London NO for Germ will offset this?  UK also losses production for a round and we could give Canada no NO’s.  Its an intriguing idea and I think valid if we can make sure Canada isn’t super-powerful.

Basically, the idea is it is the British capitol once London falls, but to penalyze them for losing London (and to negate the benefit of just abandoning England and letting the Axis take it free) is they lose the entire treasury.

UK should never be tempted to abandon London and head for Canada…I think the penalty may have to be more harsh.

EDIT: deleting the convoy zone for 109 is a great idea, but going to be hard to sell and keep track of.  Now we have to mark when a convoy zone is ‘inactive’, any ideas?

@Vance:

@JimmyHat:

I think this should be exclusive to UK, due to their ‘empire’, and it shouldn’t be too powerful because then it has a good chance of upsetting the balance of the game….I do think 7 ipcs seems weak, everyone else has a 10 base.

I agree.  The Italy thing would be as a counter Jen’s much more ambitious idea.  At some point though, we wouldn’t be playing Axis & Allies anymore, but some other game altogether.

The idea does not bother me, but I do not see this being much at all.  Generally, if Italy has lost S. Italy, it’s pretty much out of the game already, at least in my experience.

@Young:

4. All French units immediately become German units (even if London falls to Italy). For example: a French destroyer becomes a German destroyer and a French infantry becomes a German infantry all in the location they occupied at the time of capture.

Fun idea, but…

1. Do French territories now become German territories? If so, then for example USA can take them and they would become American. And also Germany would collect income for them, of course.

2. Do the French units revert back to being Allied after London is liberated or do they stay German??

@Cmdr:

I don’t see why we need to drop the SZ 109 convoy.  It works great for Germany until they get London and then it works for the Americans (assuming Germany lets them get there.)

I agree, keep the convoy zone system as it is for the rest of the board.

As for Canada, only SZ106 can of course be raided, it’s the most logical way for gameplay (and how else are they gonna bring in the coffee from Brasil??)

@Young:

6. Scotland will become a pro-allied neutral territory with a standing army of 4 infantry + any British units that were in Scotland during the capture of London.

The people of Scotland would feel abandoned, and they won’t be motivated to send taxes across the ocean, instead they will become a pro-allied neutral territory for all intensive purposes.

Much too Allied favored, IMO. Allies are already getting a 7 IPC/turn present with Canada.

And isn’t the initial Scottish force retreated to protect London?

Also , i believe Scotland isn’t so England minded.
However, the Axis can work around that by taking Scotland first. Still, it is another complicated rule, so i am inclined not to like it.

edit: 1, 2, 3 and 7 are fine by me, though ;)

It is still my opinion that if Canada is not the real British capitol once London falls (in so much as using uncaptured British facilities and collecting for all uncaptured British territories) then there is really no point in having the rule.  It feels like we are making a special exemption so that the Canadian members have some emotional boost because Canada does not fall with England.

Sorry, that’s just how I see it.

I was hoping this nation could continue to fight in Africa.  Since England is a commonwealth of many nations (Canada, India, Australia, England…) then it felt right that it would keep fighting where other nations stopped.  I was working under the impression that we wanted England to keep pressure on Italy, not let them suddenly take over Africa with little opposition.

@special:

@Young:

6. Scotland will become a pro-allied neutral territory with a standing army of 4 infantry + any British units that were in Scotland during the capture of London.

The people of Scotland would feel abandoned, and they won’t be motivated to send taxes across the ocean, instead they will become a pro-allied neutral territory for all intensive purposes.

Much too Allied favored, IMO. Allies are already getting a 7 IPC/turn present with Canada.

And isn’t the initial Scottish force retreated to protect London?

Also , i believe Scotland isn’t so England minded.
However, the Axis can work around that by taking Scotland first. Still, it is another complicated rule, so i am inclined not to like it.

edit: 1, 2, 3 and 7 are fine by me, though ;)

I don’t mind dropping this rule from my version, but I insist that when the UK collects income after exile, they collect for all original territories still under their control except for Scotland. I don’t understand what this $7 bonus for Canada is, but the UK should also collect for African territories they control as well. 1,2,3 & 7 are the meat and potatoes of version #9, so I’m glad you agree with those.

@special:

@Young:

4. All French units immediately become German units (even if London falls to Italy). For example: a French destroyer becomes a German destroyer and a French infantry becomes a German infantry all in the location they occupied at the time of capture.

Fun idea, but…

1. Do French territories now become German territories? If so, then for example USA can take them and they would become American. And also Germany would collect income for them, of course.

2. Do the French units revert back to being Allied after London is liberated or do they stay German??

No, French units that turn German do not revert back to French units after England is liberated.

No, original French territories are in limbo for the allies, but may be taken over by axis powers.

@special:

@Cmdr:

I don’t see why we need to drop the SZ 109 convoy.  It works great for Germany until they get London and then it works for the Americans (assuming Germany lets them get there.)

I agree, keep the convoy zone system as it is for the rest of the board.

As for Canada, only SZ106 can of course be raided, it’s the most logical way for gameplay (and how else are they gonna bring in the coffee from Brasil??)

As a compromise, I would be OK with this as well.

@Cmdr:

It is still my opinion that if Canada is not the real British capitol once London falls (in so much as using uncaptured British facilities and collecting for all uncaptured British territories) then there is really no point in having the rule.  It feels like we are making a special exemption so that the Canadian members have some emotional boost because Canada does not fall with England.

Sorry, that’s just how I see it.

I was hoping this nation could continue to fight in Africa.  Since England is a commonwealth of many nations (Canada, India, Australia, England…) then it felt right that it would keep fighting where other nations stopped.  I was working under the impression that we wanted England to keep pressure on Italy, not let them suddenly take over Africa with little opposition.

Jen, who is saying that the capital won’t be in Canada after the colapes of London? I don’t understand your concern, because I am a Canadian member and I don’t let patriotism dictate what I think is a sensible game mechanic. Could you be more specific.

@Young:

@special:

@Young:

6. Scotland will become a pro-allied neutral territory with a standing army of 4 infantry + any British units that were in Scotland during the capture of London.

The people of Scotland would feel abandoned, and they won’t be motivated to send taxes across the ocean, instead they will become a pro-allied neutral territory for all intensive purposes.

Much too Allied favored, IMO. Allies are already getting a 7 IPC/turn present with Canada.

And isn’t the initial Scottish force retreated to protect London?

Also , i believe Scotland isn’t so England minded.
However, the Axis can work around that by taking Scotland first. Still, it is another complicated rule, so i am inclined not to like it.

edit: 1, 2, 3 and 7 are fine by me, though ;)

I don’t mind dropping this rule from my version, but I insist that when the UK collects income after exile, they collect for all original territories still under their control except for Scotland. I don’t understand what this $7 bonus for Canada is, but the UK should also collect for African territories they control as well. 1,2,3 & 7 are the meat and potatoes of version #9, so I’m glad you agree with those.

I meant keeping the income from Canada is 7 IPC mopre compared to the normal rules where UK gets zero IPC’s after London falls.

Giving the Gov in Exile all the European UK income is completely wrong

@Young:

@special:

@Young:

4. All French units immediately become German units (even if London falls to Italy). For example: a French destroyer becomes a German destroyer and a French infantry becomes a German infantry all in the location they occupied at the time of capture.

Fun idea, but…

1. Do French territories now become German territories? If so, then for example USA can take them and they would become American. And also Germany would collect income for them, of course.

2. Do the French units revert back to being Allied after London is liberated or do they stay German??

No, French units that turn German do not revert back to French units after England is liberated.

No, original French territories are in limbo for the allies, but may be taken over by axis powers.

So if a french unit turns German, the territory it stands in becomes (immediately?) German, right? (as it is a german taking an Allied territory)

@special:

@Young:

@special:

@Young:

4. All French units immediately become German units (even if London falls to Italy). For example: a French destroyer becomes a German destroyer and a French infantry becomes a German infantry all in the location they occupied at the time of capture.

Fun idea, but…

1. Do French territories now become German territories? If so, then for example USA can take them and they would become American. And also Germany would collect income for them, of course.

2. Do the French units revert back to being Allied after London is liberated or do they stay German??

No, French units that turn German do not revert back to French units after England is liberated.

No, original French territories are in limbo for the allies, but may be taken over by axis powers.

So if a french unit turns German, the territory it stands in becomes (immediately?) German, right? (as it is a german taking an Allied territory)

You know what, this varient is getting complicated, I mean what do we do about French units sharing territories with other allied units, let’s just scrap that aspect and keep it simple.

How is the UK able to get back into the game with only $7, and what happens to original British territories in other parts of the europe side that have not yet been captured by the axis?

@Young:

You know what, this varient is getting complicated, I mean what do we do about French units sharing territories with other allied units, let’s just scrap that aspect and keep it simple.

You could limit it to the French troops within France, but then again, how many will there be left once London falls?

It’s a fun idea, but probably best if it remains an idea.

@Young:

How is the UK able to get back into the game with only $7,

in short: American help.

and what happens to original British territories in other parts of the europe side that have not yet been captured by the axis?

Same as with other fallen nations, they are limbo until the (real) capitol is liberated and give no IPC’s to anyone.