UK Gov't in exile Discussion - Delta 1

[Jennifer]

Jimmy,

I don’t see why we need to drop the SZ 109 convoy.  It works great for Germany until they get London and then it works for the Americans (assuming Germany lets them get there.)

I concede adding London back as an NO.

@JimmyHat:

Jenn you should put together a list of ideas for the exile gov.  That way we have a few versions to look at and play test to see if one works better over the other.

I like what you have here and will add comments in red.

@Cmdr:

I see the gov’t in Exile as just that, the UK Capitol moved to Ontario until London is liberated.

1. Why are the limited to just Canada?
2. If they are limited to just Canada, what’s the point?
   arguably the only real point is to give the UK player something to do.  7ipcs isn’t going to largely affect the game.

I don’t think Canada should start with any money.  Whatever they saved from England is lost paying to move the government and creating a government in Canada.  The rest is captured by Germany, Italy or Japan when London falls.  Basically, like any other capitol which makes sense to me.
I agree.

Canada collects on the next round for all liberated territories, again, just like if you liberated the British capitol, which makes sense to me.

Likewise, they can use any British complexes currently in British control, as any capitol would.

Given these conditions, it is reasonable for Canada to expect to make as much as Australia or India for a few rounds at least, until the Axis can take away enough land.
Well, with these options I don’t see why Canada would need extra production, Safrica still being viable.  I think this is going to make UK really tough, they will have the ipcs to still fight in Africa and defend the Atlantic.  Perhaps by adding in Vance’s idea of dropping the sz109 convoy and adding the London NO for Germ will offset this?  UK also losses production for a round and we could give Canada no NO’s.  Its an intriguing idea and I think valid if we can make sure Canada isn’t super-powerful.

Basically, the idea is it is the British capitol once London falls, but to penalyze them for losing London (and to negate the benefit of just abandoning England and letting the Axis take it free) is they lose the entire treasury.

UK should never be tempted to abandon London and head for Canada…I think the penalty may have to be more harsh.

EDIT: deleting the convoy zone for 109 is a great idea, but going to be hard to sell and keep track of.  Now we have to mark when a convoy zone is ‘inactive’, any ideas?

[Jennifer]

@Vance:

@JimmyHat:

I think this should be exclusive to UK, due to their ‘empire’, and it shouldn’t be too powerful because then it has a good chance of upsetting the balance of the game….I do think 7 ipcs seems weak, everyone else has a 10 base.

I agree.  The Italy thing would be as a counter Jen’s much more ambitious idea.  At some point though, we wouldn’t be playing Axis & Allies anymore, but some other game altogether.

The idea does not bother me, but I do not see this being much at all.  Generally, if Italy has lost S. Italy, it’s pretty much out of the game already, at least in my experience.

[special forces]

@Young:

4. All French units immediately become German units (even if London falls to Italy). For example: a French destroyer becomes a German destroyer and a French infantry becomes a German infantry all in the location they occupied at the time of capture.

Fun idea, but…

1. Do French territories now become German territories? If so, then for example USA can take them and they would become American. And also Germany would collect income for them, of course.

2. Do the French units revert back to being Allied after London is liberated or do they stay German??

[special forces]

@Cmdr:

I don’t see why we need to drop the SZ 109 convoy.  It works great for Germany until they get London and then it works for the Americans (assuming Germany lets them get there.)

I agree, keep the convoy zone system as it is for the rest of the board.

As for Canada, only SZ106 can of course be raided, it’s the most logical way for gameplay (and how else are they gonna bring in the coffee from Brasil??)

[special forces]

@Young:

6. Scotland will become a pro-allied neutral territory with a standing army of 4 infantry + any British units that were in Scotland during the capture of London.

The people of Scotland would feel abandoned, and they won’t be motivated to send taxes across the ocean, instead they will become a pro-allied neutral territory for all intensive purposes.

Much too Allied favored, IMO. Allies are already getting a 7 IPC/turn present with Canada.

And isn’t the initial Scottish force retreated to protect London?

Also , i believe Scotland isn’t so England minded.
However, the Axis can work around that by taking Scotland first. Still, it is another complicated rule, so i am inclined not to like it.

edit: 1, 2, 3 and 7 are fine by me, though ;)

[Jennifer]

It is still my opinion that if Canada is not the real British capitol once London falls (in so much as using uncaptured British facilities and collecting for all uncaptured British territories) then there is really no point in having the rule.  It feels like we are making a special exemption so that the Canadian members have some emotional boost because Canada does not fall with England.

Sorry, that’s just how I see it.

I was hoping this nation could continue to fight in Africa.  Since England is a commonwealth of many nations (Canada, India, Australia, England…) then it felt right that it would keep fighting where other nations stopped.  I was working under the impression that we wanted England to keep pressure on Italy, not let them suddenly take over Africa with little opposition.

[Young Grasshopper]

@special:

@Young:

6. Scotland will become a pro-allied neutral territory with a standing army of 4 infantry + any British units that were in Scotland during the capture of London.

The people of Scotland would feel abandoned, and they won’t be motivated to send taxes across the ocean, instead they will become a pro-allied neutral territory for all intensive purposes.

Much too Allied favored, IMO. Allies are already getting a 7 IPC/turn present with Canada.

And isn’t the initial Scottish force retreated to protect London?

Also , i believe Scotland isn’t so England minded.
However, the Axis can work around that by taking Scotland first. Still, it is another complicated rule, so i am inclined not to like it.

edit: 1, 2, 3 and 7 are fine by me, though ;)

I don’t mind dropping this rule from my version, but I insist that when the UK collects income after exile, they collect for all original territories still under their control except for Scotland. I don’t understand what this $7 bonus for Canada is, but the UK should also collect for African territories they control as well. 1,2,3 & 7 are the meat and potatoes of version #9, so I’m glad you agree with those.

[Young Grasshopper]

@special:

@Young:

4. All French units immediately become German units (even if London falls to Italy). For example: a French destroyer becomes a German destroyer and a French infantry becomes a German infantry all in the location they occupied at the time of capture.

Fun idea, but…

1. Do French territories now become German territories? If so, then for example USA can take them and they would become American. And also Germany would collect income for them, of course.

2. Do the French units revert back to being Allied after London is liberated or do they stay German??

No, French units that turn German do not revert back to French units after England is liberated.

No, original French territories are in limbo for the allies, but may be taken over by axis powers.

[Young Grasshopper]

@special:

@Cmdr:

I don’t see why we need to drop the SZ 109 convoy.  It works great for Germany until they get London and then it works for the Americans (assuming Germany lets them get there.)

I agree, keep the convoy zone system as it is for the rest of the board.

As for Canada, only SZ106 can of course be raided, it’s the most logical way for gameplay (and how else are they gonna bring in the coffee from Brasil??)

As a compromise, I would be OK with this as well.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Cmdr:

It is still my opinion that if Canada is not the real British capitol once London falls (in so much as using uncaptured British facilities and collecting for all uncaptured British territories) then there is really no point in having the rule.  It feels like we are making a special exemption so that the Canadian members have some emotional boost because Canada does not fall with England.

Sorry, that’s just how I see it.

I was hoping this nation could continue to fight in Africa.  Since England is a commonwealth of many nations (Canada, India, Australia, England…) then it felt right that it would keep fighting where other nations stopped.  I was working under the impression that we wanted England to keep pressure on Italy, not let them suddenly take over Africa with little opposition.

Jen, who is saying that the capital won’t be in Canada after the colapes of London? I don’t understand your concern, because I am a Canadian member and I don’t let patriotism dictate what I think is a sensible game mechanic. Could you be more specific.

[special forces]

@Young:

@special:

@Young:

6. Scotland will become a pro-allied neutral territory with a standing army of 4 infantry + any British units that were in Scotland during the capture of London.

The people of Scotland would feel abandoned, and they won’t be motivated to send taxes across the ocean, instead they will become a pro-allied neutral territory for all intensive purposes.

Much too Allied favored, IMO. Allies are already getting a 7 IPC/turn present with Canada.

And isn’t the initial Scottish force retreated to protect London?

Also , i believe Scotland isn’t so England minded.
However, the Axis can work around that by taking Scotland first. Still, it is another complicated rule, so i am inclined not to like it.

edit: 1, 2, 3 and 7 are fine by me, though ;)

I don’t mind dropping this rule from my version, but I insist that when the UK collects income after exile, they collect for all original territories still under their control except for Scotland. I don’t understand what this $7 bonus for Canada is, but the UK should also collect for African territories they control as well. 1,2,3 & 7 are the meat and potatoes of version #9, so I’m glad you agree with those.

I meant keeping the income from Canada is 7 IPC mopre compared to the normal rules where UK gets zero IPC’s after London falls.

Giving the Gov in Exile all the European UK income is completely wrong

[special forces]

@Young:

@special:

@Young:

4. All French units immediately become German units (even if London falls to Italy). For example: a French destroyer becomes a German destroyer and a French infantry becomes a German infantry all in the location they occupied at the time of capture.

Fun idea, but…

1. Do French territories now become German territories? If so, then for example USA can take them and they would become American. And also Germany would collect income for them, of course.

2. Do the French units revert back to being Allied after London is liberated or do they stay German??

No, French units that turn German do not revert back to French units after England is liberated.

No, original French territories are in limbo for the allies, but may be taken over by axis powers.

So if a french unit turns German, the territory it stands in becomes (immediately?) German, right? (as it is a german taking an Allied territory)

[Young Grasshopper]

@special:

@Young:

@special:

@Young:

4. All French units immediately become German units (even if London falls to Italy). For example: a French destroyer becomes a German destroyer and a French infantry becomes a German infantry all in the location they occupied at the time of capture.

Fun idea, but…

1. Do French territories now become German territories? If so, then for example USA can take them and they would become American. And also Germany would collect income for them, of course.

2. Do the French units revert back to being Allied after London is liberated or do they stay German??

No, French units that turn German do not revert back to French units after England is liberated.

No, original French territories are in limbo for the allies, but may be taken over by axis powers.

So if a french unit turns German, the territory it stands in becomes (immediately?) German, right? (as it is a german taking an Allied territory)

You know what, this varient is getting complicated, I mean what do we do about French units sharing territories with other allied units, let’s just scrap that aspect and keep it simple.

[Young Grasshopper]

How is the UK able to get back into the game with only $7, and what happens to original British territories in other parts of the europe side that have not yet been captured by the axis?

[special forces]

@Young:

You know what, this varient is getting complicated, I mean what do we do about French units sharing territories with other allied units, let’s just scrap that aspect and keep it simple.

You could limit it to the French troops within France, but then again, how many will there be left once London falls?

It’s a fun idea, but probably best if it remains an idea.

[special forces]

@Young:

How is the UK able to get back into the game with only $7,

in short: American help.

and what happens to original British territories in other parts of the europe side that have not yet been captured by the axis?

Same as with other fallen nations, they are limbo until the (real) capitol is liberated and give no IPC’s to anyone.

[Young Grasshopper]

Sounds like a headache trying to keep track of what’s in limbo and what’s collectable, as for America, sounds like their on their own, because all the UK will be able to contribute is a single transport each round, I thought the Government in exile rule was being created to allow the UK player to still have a fun game after London falls, spending $7 is close to not spending at all, that’s just my personal opinion, you gotta go with what the majority feels however the out come. The good news is, we all agree on the foundation of the rule.

[Jennifer]

That’s not what I am saying.  Canada is an independant nation that is a part of the British Commonwealth, as such, it can qualify to take over the reigns of the empire if London falls.  I’m all good with that.  What I am saying is that, to me, in my opinion, if Canada gets to be the new head of the British Empire after London falls, it should be the HEAD of the British Empire!

I am just worried that Canada is being turned into an independant nation (if London falls) with no real power for no reason other than it would be cool to have Canada live on.

@Young:

@Cmdr:

It is still my opinion that if Canada is not the real British capitol once London falls (in so much as using uncaptured British facilities and collecting for all uncaptured British territories) then there is really no point in having the rule.  It feels like we are making a special exemption so that the Canadian members have some emotional boost because Canada does not fall with England.

Sorry, that’s just how I see it.

I was hoping this nation could continue to fight in Africa.  Since England is a commonwealth of many nations (Canada, India, Australia, England…) then it felt right that it would keep fighting where other nations stopped.  I was working under the impression that we wanted England to keep pressure on Italy, not let them suddenly take over Africa with little opposition.

Jen, who is saying that the capital won’t be in Canada after the colapes of London? I don’t understand your concern, because I am a Canadian member and I don’t let patriotism dictate what I think is a sensible game mechanic. Could you be more specific.

[special forces]

@Young:

Sounds like a headache trying to keep track of what’s in limbo and what’s collectable, as for America, sounds like their on their own, because all the UK will be able to contribute is a single transport each round, I thought the Government in exile rule was being created to allow the UK player to still have a fun game after London falls, spending $7 is close to not spending at all, that’s just my personal opinion, you gotta go with what the majority feels however the out come. The good news is, we all agree on the foundation of the rule.

Not really, originally simply everything goes in limbo. income is still kept on the income-board, only no money is given. Keeping Gov in E. restricted to Canada makes it easy: only count the Canadian IPC’s.

Interesting how per idea 5 problems arise, right? :)

And basicly, when UK falls under normal rules (be it OOB or Alpha), it’s just as well up to the USA to fix the problem. Is that a pain for them? Yes, and it is supposed to be!

By the way, i never seen Gov in E. as a way to keep it fun for UK. Just so you know ;)

[Young Grasshopper]

@Cmdr:

That’s not what I am saying.  Canada is an independant nation that is a part of the British Commonwealth, as such, it can qualify to take over the reigns of the empire if London falls.  I’m all good with that.  What I am saying is that, to me, in my opinion, if Canada gets to be the new head of the British Empire after London falls, it should be the HEAD of the British Empire!

I am just worried that Canada is being turned into an independant nation (if London falls) with no real power for no reason other than it would be cool to have Canada live on.

@Young:

@Cmdr:

It is still my opinion that if Canada is not the real British capitol once London falls (in so much as using uncaptured British facilities and collecting for all uncaptured British territories) then there is really no point in having the rule.  It feels like we are making a special exemption so that the Canadian members have some emotional boost because Canada does not fall with England.

Sorry, that’s just how I see it.

I was hoping this nation could continue to fight in Africa.  Since England is a commonwealth of many nations (Canada, India, Australia, England…) then it felt right that it would keep fighting where other nations stopped.  I was working under the impression that we wanted England to keep pressure on Italy, not let them suddenly take over Africa with little opposition.

Jen, who is saying that the capital won’t be in Canada after the colapes of London? I don’t understand your concern, because I am a Canadian member and I don’t let patriotism dictate what I think is a sensible game mechanic. Could you be more specific.

Other than the little maple leaf graphics on the Canadian territories, as far as I’m concerned, there is no Canada in this game, independent or otherwise, it’s all UK. So, I agree with you.