The Defense Of Britain

So then the 92 stack becomes 1 BB, 2-3 CA (depending on 91 results), 1 CV, 1 DD (if not blocking 94; this can be ignored), and 1-2 TT from 98 and maybe 109, depending on whether that TT goes to 106 or 92.  Also the Tac from 98, Fig from Mal.  Any other additional Figs can be based on Gib depending on where UK would like to hold them.

This navy can wreck whatever Germany non-coms to 91 in G2, after destroying the 104 blocker.  And would probably preserve the RAF as well.

Without this navy Sealion really can’t happen, so let’s say that Germany does not stack 91, but still destroys the 104 block.

Then Germany has a
1 BB, 3 CA, 1 CV, 1ish DD Navy to overcome.
Not to say Germany can’t, but the Italian airforce definitely can’t.

Also, the TT from 98 - if maximizing Sealion defense - should bring an Arm from Egy along with whatever Inf (french or Malta) UK wants to bring.

Also if there’s only 1 SS in 106 after G1, the 109 DD could go over, destroy it, and then the Canadian 1 Inf, 1 Arm becomes an option again.
The 110 CA could be used to block in 104 if this is done.

Thats an excellent point, the UK doesn’t have to block the half of the Italian fleet that can attack it, it would be suicide for the Italians.  I was also thinking that you may be able to base 3 or so aircraft out of Malta UK1 to help shepherd the fleet to its destination.  Now I’m wishing I could use the battlemat to see what they have where.

Cmdr Jennifer.  The sz91 attack is wildly variable as well, and not in the favor of the sb.  Hoping for luck there.

Is there something better for that sb to do?

Just reading along, and I have to say…

You guys could prove to me a failsafe way to take out Britain every time, and as an Axis player I’d still go Barbarossa…

Way more fun. Way less mechanical. Way less number crunching. Way more artful.

Jim,

It was a trade off, either there was going to be 2 submarines in SZ 106 or 1 in SZ 106 and 1 in SZ 91.  Since you are attempting to show that England can survive regardless of any reasonably expected results for Germany, we should probably go with the 1 in SZ 106 and 1 in SZ 91 as this is the worst case scenario for England, but well within the realm of reasonably expected results. (Odds are slightly better than 50/50 for Germany.  Think it was 50.4 vs 49.6 for Germany.)

@JimmyHat:

Thats an excellent point, the UK doesn’t have to block the half of the Italian fleet that can attack it, it would be suicide for the Italians.

Granted.  The idea was to suicide the Italians to weaken the British to prevent them from being able to both sink the Germans AND get to SZ 110 with anything of reasonable power.  I’m not saying this is a good idea, and I know it isn’t necessary by any means, but it is a possibility.

Note: as far as I am concerned, each British/French fighter is worth 2 or 3 Italian fighters that is, England needs to kill 3 Italian fighters to justify the loss of one British or French one.  Likewise, each British/French fighter is worth about 1.67 German ones for the same reason.  England needs their aircraft significantly more than Germany or Italy does and Italy, of the four nations discussed, needs them the least.   Those are just my OPINIONS on the value of the fighters and not hard and fast ones either, just ballparks.  They are based on position, ability to be replaced, finances and ability to produce (# of units).

@Stalingradski:

Just reading along, and I have to say…

You guys could prove to me a failsafe way to take out Britain every time, and as an Axis player I’d still go Barbarossa…

Way more fun. Way less mechanical. Way less number crunching. Way more artful.

Look at the kill America first strategy that was posted by ghb34.  That’s artful! (Note, I am not saying successful, I am saying artful.)

No, go with 2 in 106, or 2/3 UK keeps the TT.

1 sb in 91 it is 50%.  Having a cruiser every other game will have to be calculated.

I’ll check it out!

Jen - I appreciate that you didn’t take offense - none was meant… this thread is a valid and fun (and fun is most important) pursuit. To me, it’s just that finding a strategy that always works becomes old quickly, and one trades away part of the soul of the game, which to me is the artistry of movement, feint, strafe, purchase, logistics, and grand strategy. Winning is nice, of course, but takes a back seat to a well-played game, win or lose. For this old timer, that’s why I play.

And it is my opinion that it is the jousting between Germany and Russia, in this version in particular, that makes it spectacular. Sealion throws that out of whack. For me. To each their own!

Maybe I’m biased because I enjoy reading about the Ost Front so much.

I will say, I did read this entire thread, so I’m obviously interested…

I have read your discussion with great interest. However, I believe another variable will achieve better results and quicker. (Much as we all know depends on the dice) As follows:
G1: 2TK,2TT,Art
SZ 112: BB, CA, Ft Hungary,Tac Pol
SZ 111: 2Subs, 1Tac Germany, 1 Tac W.Ger, 2Ft W.Ger
SZ 110: 2 Subs, 2Tac W.Ger, Ft, Hol, Ft, Nor
SZ 109: 1 Sub, 1SBM Ger
Nor: 2 Inf to Fin
Yugo: 3 tanks from Rom, Pol, Hungary plus 6INf and 2Art from S.Ger
Yugo: 2 Inf from Hungary
Bulgaria: 1 Inf from Rom
Normandy: 3Inf, Art, TK from Hol
France: 1Inf, 1 Art, 2TK from Hol, 3 Inf, 4 Mech, 1Art from W.Ger, 2 TK from S.Ger
It does leave the TT alone in SZ 106, assumes at least 1-2 subs left.
G2: 30+19 (Paris)+10 (bonus)+11(Fin,Normandy,Paris,Yugo,Bulgaria)

G2:70: 10TT: Peace Move 3TK from Yugo to W.Ger. and remaining Art. from Paris or Hol and move 5-6 INF from Ger back to W.Ger.
Clean up any british fleet with planes landed in Hol and W.Ger along w/remaining subs and new DD’s.
G3: 30+11+10=51: 10INFGer,Tac,Ft. Invade UK with 13TT, fleet,10TK,3Art,13INF,10-11 Planes (UK has equal INF fodder and much fewer TK and Planes)
G4:Build Inf,subs,planes defends Russia and UK
Sargon the Assyrian Warrior

UK 1

CM on map.

Buy 9 inf save $1

See if there are improvements to make.

Didn’t leave a blocker in sz94.  Italians can hit sz92 and lose 99% and UK will survive with6 units on average.

uk1.AAM

I will point out that in the games that Germany gets 2 hits in sz112 and loses sz91, then UK should hit sz112 on its turn with all planes and ships.  UK wins that 51% when these conditions are met 1 in 4 games.

I have a question for all about Convoy Disruption. I know that subs on station claim 2IPC per sub. Thus, if I put one sub in SZ 119 Scotland/UK loses 2IPC. If I put 10 subs in SZ 119 or 109 does the UK (London) lose 20 IPC or is it limited to 6IPC which is the value of Britain?
Sargon the Assyrian Warrior

Suiciding the Italian fleet is certainly an option, and would definitely accomplish what you describe.
However on I1 none of the Italian airforce can attack the 92 stack, no landing place.
The significant weakening of the UK fleet would still be accomplished though.

But a free hand in the Med area for Italy is one of the big upsides to Sealion.  Sacrificing the Italian fleet for Sealion would minimize this advantage in a pretty big way.

Sargon -

You can’t move the Tac from Germ to 111 if you’re not buying a Carrier.
Also UK will scramble in 109, killing your sub and bomber in one turn, while probably losing the destroyer.  Stastically no scrambled fighters will be lost.
Also, if you stacked the subs in 109, UK would lose 8 IPCs total:
  6 for UK
  2 for Scotland

Sargon:

SZ 109 is weak.  England can scramble 3 fighters to defend and now you have 1 Submarine and 1 Strategic Bomber vs 1 Destroyer and 3 Fighters.

You may want to take that into concideration.  Take a look at your other battles, and see if this makes a difference in them as well.  I am not doing so because of this error here which I feel demonstrates that you have not taking all aspects into concideration.  AKA: I am not saying the others are valid or not.

Jim:

The OPTION to stack SZ 91 is there.  The other OPTION is to leave one surface ship there to prevent CM out and another in the way to prevent NCM to SZ 110, if you so choose.  But as I said, you don’t NEED SZ 110 for this, as you can easily get to SZ 109 without going through SZ 110.

You forgot to place units, will assume 9 infntry in England, 13 INfantry and a smattering of planes present.

Germany gets transports and infantry in preparation.

England moves to SZ 110

Germany sinks SZ 110, lands in Scotland

England cries

Germany invades G4.

Just how I see it.  If you leave all those planes to defend, I don’t need my planes to attack.  If you don’t leave your planes to defend, I won’t need my planes to sink the fleet.

I didn’t place yet.  I wanted feedback as to where the fleet would go.  I’m thinking a blocker in sz94 is prudent.  I like the idea of Italy suiciding into sz92, but doubt they would.  And a weakened UK fleet could still hit the German fleet in sz91 and win.

If there is nothing to add, then go with this map and add the 9 inf.

Go ahead and post a map.

uk1.AAM

Do you sink 110 with just planes then?
Because using navy would make the transports in 111 easily destroyed by what planes are left in London.  Even if you left a part of your navy.

Alternatively if you put the German Navy in 111, you could still take 110 with the sacrifice of a couple planes.  Just curious.

If we’re not hitting 110 on G1, what are others’ thoughts on this G1 lay-out?  Just thought it improved on a couple of the plane/troop distributions.

With this spread, both Normandy and France have much higher win %‘s, and therefore more force gets preserved for later turns.
The naval battles are still fairly assured.
Just wondering what others’ thoughts were on this.

G1 potential.AAM

Let’s go with one at a time.

Right right, I agree.  Just curious.

Also Jim, I had an idea on the UK side.

If in this situation, in which there is 1 sub in 106 and 1 in 91, could UK:

send the 109 DD to 106, clearing that zone (hopefully)
send the 109 TT to 106 in non-com, to get that Inf/Arm
use the 110 CA to block in 104

Sure it’s a bit pricier in naval units, but it replaces a UK2 inf with an arm.  Seems like a positive exchange for UK’s defense.