Carrier question! Anybody plz (OR KREIG!)

@Krychek:

It says Move, or survive. In that sense that would indirectly mean that the carrier must have been existing at the begining of the turn?

I’m not sure how you came to this conclusion, but purchased aircraft carriers count as legal landing spaces.

The planes move during combat for the attack, and whether they win the battle or retreat (which means remaining in that space until noncombat), they don’t move again until noncombat.  Aircraft are the only units that can move both during combat and noncombat, and all they need is a legal landing space at the end of the noncombat phase (this counts as a seazone that will have a carrier placed during the place units phase).

@kcdzim:

@Krychek:

It says Move, or survive. In that sense that would indirectly mean that the carrier must have been existing at the begining of the turn?

I’m not sure how you came to this conclusion, but purchased aircraft carriers count as legal landing spaces.

The planes move during combat for the attack, and whether they win the battle or retreat (which means remaining in that space until noncombat), they don’t move again until noncombat.  Aircraft are the only units that can move both during combat and noncombat, and all they need is a legal landing space at the end of the noncombat phase (this counts as a seazone that will have a carrier placed during the place units phase).

Yup.

Since you have to have already bought the Carrier in the purchase phase then if there are any surviving fighters the carrier will have to be placed in that seazone as a landing place for them.  If no fighters survived, you can place the carrier anywhere else.

So yeah, as long as the fighters have a place to land (that was not a territory just captured that turn) at the end of your turn, you’re good to go.

@Krychek:

It says Move, or survive. In that sense that would indirectly mean that the carrier must have been existing at the begining of the turn?

The Purchase Units phase comes before the Combat Movement phase.  So, if you purchased 2 carriers in the Purchase phase, then moved those 4 fighters in the Combat Movement phase, those carriers do exist at the beginning of your Combat Move, just not on the board yet.  They don’t have to exist at the beginning of your turn, just at the beginning of your Combat Movement phase.

What I want to know,

Is what happens in the event that you create a “possible” landing zone by attacking a said SZ full of enemy ships with just one sub.  You know there is NO chance of victory - but, because it’s technically possible to land, that is a VIABLE zone.

Say you attack SOUTHERN ITALY with American Planes,  they reach S. Italy and only have one more movment space, thus Sz95 and Sz97 are the only possibilties for those planes to land.  Sz95 is FULL of Italian Ships.  You declare to your opponent, that you are attacking his FAT fleet in Sz95 with 1 sub, in the “hopes” that if you sink his 5 battleships, you will Move your acc into that zone and land your planes.

Naturally, you LOSE Sz95.  Are you then FORCED to send your acc to Sz97 and land the planes on it?  Or - if because you declared it “could” have been a zone, and you “intended” to go there if there was a victory, can you force your planes to die.

And if that’s NOT the case, what happens in the case, where because of failed combats, there become multiple planes forced to land in zones a carrier could reach…. how do you decide which planes you save? is that up to the player? and are you FORCED to save them due to a combat failure/loss of a viable zone?

You must move so that as many planes as possible may land.  If all of them cannot be landed, it’s up to you which individual ones to sacrifice, as long as the maximum number possible are saved.

@Krieghund:

You must move so that as many planes as possible may land.  If all of them cannot be landed, it’s up to you which individual ones to sacrifice, as long as the maximum number possible are saved.

Wait, what?

This reads to me like you don’t absolutely HAVE to have a potential landing spot for all of them, but just “most” (“as many as possible”) of them!  That can’t be correct …

exactly, in fact it isn’t correct…you read it wrong.  You have to save as many planes as possible, the remaining ones die because the carrier they were going to land on did not make it.(that sz still has enemy vessels in it, your sub attack didn’t work)

You always have to have a place for your planes to land.

EXCEPT, in the event that a successful naval attack is required, to clear a zone, to allow your carrier to be in range for the planes to land on.

If said attack fails - the planes die.

The “cheap shot” of this - if you will, is you can attack areas with aircraft as long as there is “remote possibility” however unreasonable, that the aircraft will have the oppurtunity to land.  I do it all the time :D

In this case, wouldn’t you have to move those carriers into the hostile sea zone as part of the combat move?  I didn’t think you could save the carriers for the non-combat movement.

@knp7765:

In this case, wouldn’t you have to move those carriers into the hostile sea zone as part of the combat move?  I didn’t think you could save the carriers for the non-combat movement.

Depends whether the carriers have to go through a hostile SZ or end their movement on one. If the SZ simply needs to be cleared from enemy ships for movement then you’d have to send something to attack the SZ, on the assumption that the carrier will afterwards move through it and end at another SZ for the planes to land. But if the carrier must finish its move on an enemy SZ for the fighters to land then it will have to make a combat move there.

HOBBES

That is Absolutely not the case.

You don’t have to send the carrier into the combat.

IE, sas the carrier was BLOCKED,  AND also must make it to a sea zone that is to also be cleared by enemy ships.

You could still launch the attack, based on the assumption/possibility that you could not only clear the block - but also, clear the full enemy Sea-zone thus allowing you to land.

You can then essentially hold your carriers in reserve.  If your planes die - no move is required.

@Gargantua:

HOBBES

That is Absolutely not the case.

You don’t have to send the carrier into the combat.

IE, sas the carrier was BLOCKED,  AND also must make it to a sea zone that is to also be cleared by enemy ships.

You could still launch the attack, based on the assumption/possibility that you could not only clear the block - but also, clear the full enemy Sea-zone thus allowing you to land.

You can then essentially hold your carriers in reserve.  If your planes die - no move is required.

The situation I described assumed that the carrier would be the only unit (either ship or plane) capable to attacking the SZ where it should end its movement. In that case you’d need to move at least 1 carrier there. Of course, if you have other cheaper units you should use them instead.

With your situation both SZs (the block and the final destination of the carrier) need to be attacked for the carriers to be able to be move there during NCM.

The situation I described assumed that the carrier would be the only unit (either ship or plane) capable to attacking the SZ where it should end its movement.

Carriers have 0 attack value.

Defenders cannot retreat.

Therefore (With the exception of subs/trans you can ignore) it is IMPOSSIBLE for a carrier alone to clear a sea zone.  Thus making it IMPOSSIBLE to create a landing zone for the planes, thus eliminating the possibility of said style of attack.  You require another unit that can attack.

With your situation both SZs (the block and the final destination of the carrier) need to be attacked for the carriers to be able to be move there during NCM

Yes - exactly.

@JimmyHat:

exactly, in fact it isn’t correct…you read it wrong.  You have to save as many planes as possible, the remaining ones die because the carrier they were going to land on did not make it.(that sz still has enemy vessels in it, your sub attack didn’t work)

This I understand.  It was just the way Krieg worded his reply (without context) could be very confusing.

@Gargantua:

The situation I described assumed that the carrier would be the only unit (either ship or plane) capable to attacking the SZ where it should end its movement.

Carriers have 0 attack value.

Defenders cannot retreat.

Therefore (With the exception of subs/trans you can ignore) it is IMPOSSIBLE for a carrier alone to clear a sea zone.  Thus making it IMPOSSIBLE to create a landing zone for the planes, thus eliminating the possibility of said style of attack.  You require another unit that can attack.

Forgot we were talking of the new carrier values. Thanks for clearing that up to me.

A US fighter on Gibraltar is the only plane in range of the 10 new transports of Germany “safely” built in SZ113 behind the Danish strait. Denmark is defended with 10 inf.
The US fighter moves 5 and sinks the transports under the assumption that UK on its turn will (i) with 1 transport and 1 inf attack and take Denmark in combat movement against all odds and (ii) move its AC from 110 to 113 in NCM to provide a landing spot for the fighter

Are we saying this is a legal move?

@Piet:

A US fighter on Gibraltar is the only plane in range of the 10 new transports of Germany “safely” built in SZ113 behind the Danish strait. Denmark is defended with 10 inf.
The US fighter moves 5 and sinks the transports under the assumption that UK on its turn will (i) with 1 transport and 1 inf attack and take Denmark in combat movement against all odds and (ii) move its AC from 110 to 113 in NCM to provide a landing spot for the fighter

Are we saying this is a legal move?

You can’t go through straights or canals in the same turn you captured them, even in non-combat, so that would be no.

Edit: in fact the fighter has to land somewhere / anywhere in its NCM, you can’t leave it flying around until next turn

Ok thanks

It has to all be done in the same countries turn, because that’s when you have to land your on your carrier.