@Cmdr:
That said, London is far easier and more rewarding than Russia, I think.
Agreed.
My thinking has moved in this direction also. After dieing in the Russian winter in too many games I am thinking Sea Lion may be a viable alternative to achieve victory after all…
I view it less of achieving victory so much as staving off defeat!
Don’t get me wrong I do believe the game is still broken in favors of the Allies between two semi skilled opponents. I am all for making the Axis somewhat stronger.
Aye, I am just saying I feel Germany’s only real chance of victory is to take London and then kill Russia. I am not saying this is a great strategy or one that will even win most of the time, like I am saying the American Pac-Strat is. There’s just no possible way Japan can hold out against America for 10 rounds if America goes all in to the Pacific giving America a full 3 rounds to secure a victory city, if not 4 or 5 rounds to do so.
@Cmdr:
Aye, I am just saying I feel Germany’s only real chance of victory is to take London and then kill Russia. I am not saying this is a great strategy or one that will even win most of the time, like I am saying the American Pac-Strat is. There’s just no possible way Japan can hold out against America for 10 rounds if America goes all in to the Pacific giving America a full 3 rounds to secure a victory city, if not 4 or 5 rounds to do so.
A German occupied London is pretty sweet for Italy to say the least. I hate when people mess up my Italy :(
I was looking for the 100% pacific strategy results thread but it was buried so far I gave up. I figure here is a good place to post my results. Had a game that ended in Axis victory on the Europe board on turn 18.
I drew axis and followed the standard German strategy of limiting losses G1 and building 2 trns 1 cv. Japan built an ic in Shanghai and 2 trns, Italy built 1 art and saved 6. Sealion was executed on G3 after taking scotland on G2, and Germany declared war on Russia G4. Japan declared war on the allies J3 after the fall of London, grabbed the DEI and prepared for the US assault.
US went Midway->Iwo->Korea, built a NB/AB in midway and Iwo and a minor IC in Korea. His fleet continued to chase the Japanese around India into the red sea. Here the US fleet moved south of Africa while the Japanese moved through the Med and joined up with the German fleet off Gibraltar. While US had been beating back Japan Germany had been uber aggressive and made landings in Caribbean and twice in Brazil.(lost both times to horrible dice, damn those jungles!) With the help of the Japanese ships the combined axis fleets captured panama again and fled to the pacific before the new mega combined fleets of the US could stop them.
The game ended with a slow grind in Russia where the axis took every opportunity to kill Russian units they got. At all times there were Italian can openers present and the initial German thrust reached Rostov. Here I swept south with my mobile reserve and met the Italians who were fighting over persia. This combined force was able to hold the region until the Russians moved away to deal with a threat coming from Novgorod, then this army moved north on their heels and took Stalingrad.
In the end the Russian army could not keep up with the insane income Germany was collecting, and by using my italian mobile units in suicide attacks I was able to maintain German superiority in numbers and capture Moscow. Japan was being resuscitated by the axis fleets in the pacific and had reclaimed Korea with trns that it had saved throughout and troops that were holding Japan. Italy had recaptured SAfrica from ANZAC and established dominance of the Indian ocean and a secure hold on Egypt and Sitaly. India had a large army in Perisa, Anzac had a small presence in Wafrica after capturing Brazil from the Germans. Also the US had a massive fleet in the Med and was poised to drop Italy down to 20ipcs.
I think the reason I won the game was because my opponent over bought subs. Each time I would feint with my navy he would build subs, for instance building 3 subs in Brazil as ANZAC when I moved toward Panama. Then when I did the unexpected and kept going West towards Hawaii the Subs were worthless. He also did not do well with China after the expulsion of Japan, but there are differing strategies there. He went big stack where I would have spread out to defend all borders. The best idea of course is to just save ipcs and build if threatened…but we use the paper money and it is finite. Germany may have also been too keen on holding the Atlantic as long as possible, even doing a straffe attack on US production in sz 101 to kill subs. Still those ipcs could have been spent on units in Russia to end that front earlier. Once US is placing all 90 some ipcs in the Atlantic it is too hard for Germany to compete, even if Russia is down to 25 by then. Another mistake I made was not attacking Russia as soon as possible as Japan. I still ended up paying off the 12 ipcs to Russia in order to SBR behind the lines so it was a moot point. And with a 100% pacific strategy there is no motive for Russia to declare war on Japan, the US can handle it.
This was my first encounter as the Axis with a 100% pacific strategy, next game I will be allies and try and execute it, preferably better than my opponent did this game.
I think your failing was in America chasing the Japanese fleet ANYWHERE. Screw em. Once you have all their destroyers or they are out of the Pacific, ignore them. From that point on you’re building fleet to invade the Med (if, when done in your game, the Japanese couldnt have hidden in there, btw) and a WHOLE MESS OF TRANSPORTS! (yes, I am the transport queen, but still, when you have Japan on the ropes, there is no reason you shouldnt have 16-20 transports dumping 16-20 ground units into Africa a round.)
Are you then advocating the US leave that fleet near Japan to prevent them from bringing their fleet home and restarting the war? My opponent sent his fleet to dominate the Indian ocean and chase me away while building subs to stop my convoy income, dropping me to 0. At that point I saved my money and twice bought a dd to try and thin the sub herd, but he could build new ones out of Korea.:(
As Japan I wasn’t sitting around even though I had no income, my fleet supported Italian moves in the Indian ocean and my aircraft posed a serious threat that forced him to stack his army. (7 ftrs 1 tac 3 lvls will drop most anything)
When I saw US was going 100% pacific I made it an early priority to take Gibraltar and stack an army there and I was busy harassing the US coast when he switched production to Atlantic. I then pulled all assets in the area together to strafe his production zone and kill his subs and dds, letting me hobble back to Gib to meet up with the Japanese. This meant the battle in Russia raged along the border for some time before I began to make headway, only Germany’s increased income in relation to Russia spelling Moscow’s demise.
I recommend keeping your fleet in the Pacific until you reduce Japan to less than 5 IPC in income, then leaving 3 destroyers at max range from SZ 6. If they save up and build a submarine, you can chase that down and kill it. As for the rest of their boats, once they are out of destroyers you can pretty much ignore them. If they start moving towards SZ 6 again, just build new ships to deal with them at that time. For now, move most of your ships to the Atlantic so you can invade the Med and sink whatever Germany has in the N. Atlantic. From there, it’s a matter of time before you blitz over to Egypt and stop a VC win and then invade S. Europe (S. Italy, Greece, Albania).
The impetus for him to chase me down was the presence of the Jap fleet plus air plus the ground troops onboard, it wasn’t until this threat was neutralized and the Japanese forced towards the Red Sea that he was able to reclaim the DEI and Chinese coast. This is when it sounds like you are advocating a switch to the Atlantic, but the fleet already built it out of position to assist in the Atlantic until the battle there is already decided.
As it happens this is also the time my opponent switched to Atlantic, but by then the axis had taken Brazil and Windies along with Saf. He used his US fleet to recapture Saf and built a new US fleet, which Germany then smacked and retreated. This was roughly around round 8ish.
Still, during the Chase there is attrition to the Japanese fleet (the American one is getting resupplied, Japanese one cannot due to presence of the American fleet and lack of income) so many of the American ships should have been able to break off much sooner than is implied.
If Japan has 5 loaded carriers, 2 battleships, 2 transports, a few submarines and a few destroyers, I am not keeping 5 battleships, 7 carriers (loaded) 18 destroyers, and 16 submarines out there chasing it. I’ll pull a few carriers, a few destroyers and most of the submarines off to go to the Atlantic. The rest is just strong enough to kill him (even if I am wiped in the process, I don’t care) or push him away.
I see, so leaving the Japanese/Italians dominate in the Indian Ocean so long as they don’t return to the Pacific. The Jap fleet I escaped with was 2 bb 2 CA 4 CV’s plus 5 or so trns and a full complement of planes. I never used blockers and just stayed ahead of his fleet until meeting the Italians.
This would have prevented his recapture of Saf and heavy pressure in Persia, but I suppose he could have just concentrated on the middle East and sent a few ships towards the Atlantic.
Hmm, Japan shouldnt be about to out distance the American fleet when heading to the Indian Ocean.
Why didn’t Australia or England put naval bases in the Dutch East Indies to allow the Americans over-take speed?
@Cmdr:
SZ 106: Submarine
SZ 91: 2 Submarines
SZ 111: A bunch of planes, some submarines
SZ 112: warships and a plane
SZ 110: A bunch of planes, some submarines.For the record: I use no planes in France, only ground units. When I am done with England, there is no fleet left in the Atlantic with the possible exception of SZ 106.
You say here you hit SZ91, SZ106, SZ111 and SZ110 with submarines. Yet you only have 5 subs. That means only one of those locations gets 2 subs, the rest only get 1. Since you’re hitting SZ91 with only subs, then that must be where 2 subs are going, and in that case there are no subs that are in reach of SZ110. Your numbers don’t add up.
Looking at your most recent game against Krychek, using low luck I might add, you didn’t hit 91, so we’ll go with what you have there. What’s keeping me from building a tactical bomber and 4 infantry, saving 5 IPC? Moving my units from Canada to London, I can attack SZ110 with my DD and fighters, moving 1 infantry from London to Holland with fighter support and the infantry from Normandy. Those air units in Germany can no longer attack London. The destroyer in SZ110 keeps bombardment from happening. I can place my Mediterranean fleet off of Gibraltar, fly my airforce to London and collect my money, bringing me to a total of 48 IPC…. which is just enough for 2 carriers and 2 destroyers.
The fact that I have 6 fighters and a tactical sitting on London at the same time? Crazy stuff. On my 2nd turn, I shift my Gibraltar fleet up into SZ110, place my 2 carriers and 2 destroyers down while my planes from London land and I have a navy to counter yours.
RE:
3 CV @ 2
3 DD @ 2
2 CA @ 3
2 TAC @ 3
7 FIG @ 4
TOTAL: 6@2 4@3 7@4
8.666 hits
You can attack me with everything for:
TOTAL: 6@3 7@4
7.666 hits
I get 1 extra hit, but you can absorb double hit with attacking carrier and an extra hit with an attacking battleship.
I can absorb 3 hits with my 3 carriers. After that, I’m losing hitters at 2 to your hitters at 3. I will win this battle, hands down.
OPERATION SEALION: HALTED
Take your 68 IPC and blow it on a navy. I have to buy a bunch of destroyers. After that, the Americans have intervened. Oh wait, you’ve already spent your 68 IPC before I made my navy!
I use 2 submarines in each SZ 111 and SZ 110 and 1 submarine in SZ 106.
@Cmdr:
I use 2 submarines in each SZ 111 and SZ 110 and 1 submarine in SZ 106.
I noticed that :) It was in your opening moves in the example I used, I assumed it was your standard opening.
@Cmdr:
I use 2 submarines in each SZ 111 and SZ 110 and 1 submarine in SZ 106.
I noticed that :) It was in your opening moves in the example I used, I assumed it was your standard opening.
No. Because scrambled fighters might end up taking some of my aircraft with them. It’s my standard open if I go KBF, not if I go KRF.
You can just do as Cmdr Jen suggested, but land in Scotland on turn 3 instead and then hit turn 4. The odds are very good, but you have emptied Europe to do it.
The only option for UK is to hit Scotland for 2 turns and retreat, and hopefully the odds will have dropped for Germany.
Just out of curiosity, the UKs I play against usually have 4-5 air units, even with 6 I have the same question:
If I land 5 inf and 1 aagun in scotland turn 2(my standard sealion), or 17 inf and 1 aagun in Scotland on turn 3, would you attack these stacks, and would you use planes?
Typically you risk only losing one plane (however it feels like you either miss with everything or you hit twice), I like 5 units on turn 2 because its real easy to over hit and get stuck there. I generally build 2 carriers with Germany, and always favor a turn 4 capture, because I lose fewer men.
Your fear about Moscow taking Warsaw on turn 4 is less if you have 9-10 transports in sz 110 that can can bring land units to match your built land units on G4, this should give you enough to crack the Russian force unless it exceeds 50 units, at which case, you build 10 units in Berlin, drop off 18-20 along with the previous 10 units and your air force, this should drive Moscow back, and Lenningrad is easy pickings for you tranny fleet if he has a stack in Warsaw on turn 6.
Edit: If I’m going sea lion G4 and Russia is stacking my border, I also have 8-12 Italian land units in Berlin with 2-3 planes to calm my tummy down. That typically gives me 50+ land units with air to hold the Reich-stag. You ain’t blowing up my eagle that soon in the game.
@Cmdr:
@Zallomallo:
@Cmdr:
Carpet/Fire bombing with the Americans
?? Explain please
9 or 10 Strategic Bombers hitting Germany, W. Germany each round capping damage as they go.
- 2 Bombers for France
- 3 or 4 Bombers for N. Italy
- 2 Bombers for S. Italy
As you gain more territories against the Axis and have landing zones.
Here is a question. I have not faced sustained bombing. If I saw it coming (bomber builds), would it be cheaper (2 more ipcs) to build a minor factory instead of repair majors? Then you opponent is capped at costing you 6, 12, or 18 dollars a turn, and you will still get to build units, all be it, out of position perhaps.
I am thinking: Denmark or Holland replaces W.Germany, Greater southern Germany could replace Germany or W.Germany. I’ll assume you have France and London as other minor factory sites, so to build 9 units, it would cost you 18 IPCs in the rear, and 1 turn of movement. (I suspect if they have many bombers, there is less threat from invasions early on, so your men can march that extra turn into position. They are trading 1 bomber for every 18 IPCs raided, if we assume 2 bomber for each of the 3 factories; 6 anti-air rolls nets one hit on average. I realize you would cost me 24 ipcs to build 2 minors, but I would actually be using the money that would be spent repairing W. Germany twice, so in essence, its 4 ipcs to replace Germany and West Germany. I also have the choice of building forward minor factories in Russia (as I like the south route for this purpose) and so I might survive only building 3 or 6 units a turn in my rear…again that is 6 or 12 ipcs spent at my discretion.
If I do not repair the factories, the bombers just sit there, right?
Two Axis victories. The first was Barbarossa on G2. Germ. couln’t take France on 1 which gave Italy the extra money they need. Germ. dice were better against Russia. Japan kept the U.S.A. out till the fourth round and crushed China and Russia on 1 and 2. Then set themselves up for a massive stike against U.K. and the U.S.A. It was to little too late, Russia didn’t have the pieces to stop Germ. and the economics of loosing money territories they couln’t compete, and then it was a matter of time.
The second was Sea Lion on 3 and Barbarossa on 4. The Italian fleet was sparied when the U.K. took every thing to S.Fra. to take it away from Germ. they did and Italy retook it and sunk the combined fleet, Italy was able to take Egypt with force and when London fell that made real easy to take over Afr. The U.S.A. didn’t build well enough to liberate London. He came after the Germ. Navy but didn’t have the resorces to eliminate them and that left a bunch of ducks only being protected by a dd and the Germ. navy sunk them. The U.S.A. landed their Inf. ,Art. and tanks in Afr. and Italy was stong enough to stop them. Japan kept the U.S.A. out as long as possible and concentrated on China and Russia on 1 and 2 and set themselves up to hit the Islands for the big money and slam the U.K. and the U.S.A. When Germ turned It’s force against Russia along with the Italian’s backing them up It turned out to be too much and after a few rounds It was over.
I was the U.S.A. in the first one and Germ in the second one
No, the bombers can seak out other targets. It is probably cheaper to buy fighters to intercept.
If you do not repair the factories, then the bombers have no risk from your AA Guns either. However, they do have threat over a very large area of the game board. (Not as much as LRA Bombers from Classic that could hit the entire game board almost, but still very significant!)
You also find the need to collect useless islands in the Med to prevent these bombers from raining havoc on the Italians.
@suprise:
Two Axis victories. The first was Barbarossa on G2. Germ. couln’t take France on 1 which gave Italy the extra money they need. Germ. dice were better against Russia. Japan kept the U.S.A. out till the fourth round and crushed China and Russia on 1 and 2. Then set themselves up for a massive stike against U.K. and the U.S.A. It was to little too late, Russia didn’t have the pieces to stop Germ. and the economics of loosing money territories they couln’t compete, and then it was a matter of time.
The second was Sea Lion on 3 and Barbarossa on 4. The Italian fleet was sparied when the U.K. took every thing to S.Fra. to take it away from Germ. they did and Italy retook it and sunk the combined fleet, Italy was able to take Egypt with force and when London fell that made real easy to take over Afr. The U.S.A. didn’t build well enough to liberate London. He came after the Germ. Navy but didn’t have the resorces to eliminate them and that left a bunch of ducks only being protected by a dd and the Germ. navy sunk them. The U.S.A. landed their Inf. ,Art. and tanks in Afr. and Italy was stong enough to stop them. Japan kept the U.S.A. out as long as possible and concentrated on China and Russia on 1 and 2 and set themselves up to hit the Islands for the big money and slam the U.K. and the U.S.A. When Germ turned It’s force against Russia along with the Italian’s backing them up It turned out to be too much and after a few rounds It was over.So 2 axis victories eh, strange that people still think its slanted towards the alllies. I also fell once to a G1 assault on Russia. All 3 Axis dropped their other commitments and went straight to Moscow. Russia was doomed but I think had I known better then what I was doing I could have made major landings in Europe and turned the tide.
I was the U.S.A. in the first one and Germ in the second one
