How did playtesters miss J1 attack?

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Dylan:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Dylan:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Dylan:

@calvinhobbesliker:

12 and 16 is a lot?
After 3 turns, UK has India, Burma, Shan, and BC, making 6
China maybe has 6 as well
Japan is making 60

I know, but it’s a big chunch of land, that seems to inavoidble.

What???

To ignore Asia seems weird

How are you ignoring it? China will die easily, and India will be left with just India and maybe Burma and BC, and Japan with convoy raid with 2 subs, reducing UK’s income to 1 or 2

China is hard, and if your in war with the UK is hard. Everyone expcts too much from 1 country.

12 infantry and 1 fighter is hard? 4 of those infantry dies on J1. Japan has 6 infantry and 2 artillery in Kiangsi and Kwangsi alone. Add to that the Multitude of Jap planes, the 4 inf, art, and mech in Mancuria, and the 2 inf, art in Jehol, and the 2 ing in Shantung and Kiangsu, China can be killed without building anything on or bringing anything to the mainland

When i vs. you I lost those troops,

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Dylan:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Dylan:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Dylan:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Dylan:

@calvinhobbesliker:

12 and 16 is a lot?
After 3 turns, UK has India, Burma, Shan, and BC, making 6
China maybe has 6 as well
Japan is making 60

I know, but it’s a big chunch of land, that seems to inavoidble.

What???

To ignore Asia seems weird

How are you ignoring it? China will die easily, and India will be left with just India and maybe Burma and BC, and Japan with convoy raid with 2 subs, reducing UK’s income to 1 or 2

China is hard, and if your in war with the UK is hard. Everyone expcts too much from 1 country.

12 infantry and 1 fighter is hard? 4 of those infantry dies on J1. Japan has 6 infantry and 2 artillery in Kiangsi and Kwangsi alone. Add to that the Multitude of Jap planes, the 4 inf, art, and mech in Mancuria, and the 2 inf, art in Jehol, and the 2 ing in Shantung and Kiangsu, China can be killed without building anything on or bringing anything to the mainland

When i vs. you I lost those troops,

Yes, you did. But that doesn’t prove that Japan has a hard time in Asia; it shows you don’t know how to use them

List what I was doing wrong.

@calvinhobbesliker:

1. You didn’t attack on J1
2. When you did attack, you didn’t invade the Philippines, even though i had 1 infantry defending it
3. You didn’t try for the DEI

1. I didn’t want China and India ganging up on me
2. I didn’t know where all my transports were.
3. DEI?

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Dylan:

@calvinhobbesliker:

1. You didn’t attack on J1
2. When you did attack, you didn’t invade the Philippines, even though i had 1 infantry defending it
3. You didn’t try for the DEI

1. I didn’t want China and India ganging up on me
2. I didn’t know where all my transports were.
3. DEI?

1.  :? :? :? China is already at war with Japan and India can declare war on Japan whenever it likes
2.  :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? Why not?
3. Dutch East Indies

1. Well most Indian players wouldn’t want to go to war with Japan early
2. Because all I was using was some setup cards, and my brain, I don’t think I could even reach.
3. I would be too close to ANZAC who could at the time take be down of what ever could reach.

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Dylan:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Dylan:

@calvinhobbesliker:

1. You didn’t attack on J1
2. When you did attack, you didn’t invade the Philippines, even though i had 1 infantry defending it
3. You didn’t try for the DEI

1. I didn’t want China and India ganging up on me
2. I didn’t know where all my transports were.
3. DEI?

1.  :? :? :? China is already at war with Japan and India can declare war on Japan whenever it likes
2.  :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? Why not?
3. Dutch East Indies

1. Well most Indian players wouldn’t want to go to war with Japan early
2. Because all I was using was some setup cards, and my brain, I don’t think I could even reach.
3. I would be too close to ANZAC who could at the time take be down of what ever could reach.

1. If they don’t, then they don’t gang up on Japan
2. Do you have an actual game set?
3. ANZAC, with 10 ipcs?

1. But they will
2. Yes, but I had a game going (with friends)
3. Yes you were saving and building fighters.

To interrupt this little discussion going on, I think the playtesters saw that there were a number of ways to slow Japan in their attempt to take India.  Too much delay, and the allies will be able to hurt Japan elsewhere.  The key moves are to put ANZAC’s starting destroyer and sub in SZ55, base all ANZAC fighters on Queensland, and to play aggressively with Britain (move everything that starts in India to Burma and build 2 infantry, 1 mech, and 1 armor).

What this allows you to do is it lets Britain retake Shan State both that and Malaya fall J2.  Then ANZAC can hit SZ37 with up to 1 ss, 1 dd, 4 figs.  If you keep the destroyer alive, it will block any units at the Kwangsi naval base.  The first game I used that, Japan still won so I don’t know if it’s enough, but it delayed India’s death and knocked out a lot of the Japanese navy.

I usually just send the transport up to New Guinea alone.  SZ55 is 2 spaces from Philippines sea zone, but both times I’ve used this strategy, Japan has had other targets to send their planes at.

Depending on where the Japanese fleet is and the number of ground troops they have, I use SZ55 as a blocking point so that they can’t reach Queensland.  If there isn’t any way for Japan to threaten Queensland, I will use SZ54.

I’ve seen this too, but with the UK DD and CR combining there.  It can still get squashed.

But you did mention that Japan was busy with other targets.  I had always thought that if there were just too many stacks of units in menacing places, that Japan would have to stretch thin to hit them all.  Cost Japan enough planes, that sweeping Austrtalia when the time comes is tough.

That’s my idea, anyway.

I’ve yet to see a situation where I didn’t have enough planes to hit everything and still come out smelling like roses, though…

I’m not saying the destroyer won’t get crushed at all.  I’m just saying that by giving yourself options, it allows you to fight Japan effectively.  There is a well established Japanese plan, and Japan sets the tempo of the game.  The Allies need flexibility and the ability to strike in multiple ways in order to trip up Japan.

I don’t disagree … but …

I have seen the allies make stands in a number of places - even stand in as many places as they can - and still get squashed.  I just have so many planes, that I can afford to lose even half and still take Sydney (or Hawaii if the situation arose).

Unless I screw up as Japan (and I have) I see no way of stopping them.  Lord Neilsen made me ask for a stalemate, but that was more he outplayed me, than game balance.  I’m really out of ideas on this, other than a bid.

To be honest, in a little over a month, everyone will be playing Europe or the linked game.  This will stop being played as a stand alone game, I would think.  It won’t matter soon.

This is what I don’t understand, Jim.  True, Japan starts with a lot of planes, but if you lose half your planes taking Sydney or Hawaii, what’s been destroying India and China during that offensive?  You can’t do both at the same time with the same effectiveness as a single target.  And what’s left to counter the ever-growing American fleet?

The key to beating Japan is dividing and conquering their navy.  Even when Japan is getting 60+ IPCS, they still have to split it against India/China, ANZAC and building a navy to counter the US.  They can’t keep up with America if they’re spending IPCS on land units.

As the allies, I try and stretch the Japanese navy.  If Japan goes all out against India, I have them build a navy.  The Japanese planes won’t be in range for several turns, and every fighter/naval unit lost helps America out.  So to does any fodder that Japan sends there way (destroyers/subs).

Knowing there is nothing you can do to stop India from being sacked, I figure the best thing is to take out the units that matter most to America: navy.  You start with enough planes to be able to build a carrier per turn for some time.

When Australia is left for last, I tend to have at least 2 loaded carriers (all fighters) with a transport threatening the DEI.  Same as above, if They break off more to deal with it, or take out Sydney first, it’s less attacking India and threatening the US fleet.

While Japan can most certainly crush India, Sydney, or Hawaii at will, taking one of those is by no means a guaranteed victory.

One thing you can do as the Allies to throw a curve ball at the Japanese is to build a CV for the British on B1. On ANZAC 1, save at least 6 IPCs and lay down a CV on ANZAC2 in SZ62. If you move the US at start fleet to New Zealand on US2 from Pearl, and move the British fleet to SZ56 on B2, then the Japanese have a dilema on J3, as the US fleet in New Zealand, and whatever air the US may have in Australia, can counter-attack SZ56 from New Zealand. The ANZACers can follow up with a smaller, part two, counter-attack in their portion of the third turn as well, from SZ 62.

When the British make the move from SZ39 to SZ56, they can swap out their fighters for ANZACer fighters if they wish, leaving India strong.

J3 is generally the turn in which the Japanese will want to take Singapore to get ready for the major IC there on J4, and will have to face the fact that if they wish to take out the British fleet before it links up with the rest of the Allied CVs in SZ54, they’ll have to divert carrier air from the assault on Singapore to conduct an air assault on the British fleet. If the Japanese try to take on the British with Navy, the US and ANZACers are positioned to counter attack.

If the US buys a CV on US1, and it is at Pearl on US2, and Japanese let the British fleet go by on J3, then the Allies can put the British fleet, the ANZAC CV + DD in SZ62, the US fleet at New Zealand, and the US CV at Pearl all in SZ54 on turn 3.

The Allies will then have a strong defensive position in SZ54 to attack out of in later turns.

The main problem with this is that while a multinational fleet may be great on defense, it isn’t too terribly good on offense…at least until the US can pour more units into that SZ.

This is what I don’t understand, Jim.  True, Japan starts with a lot of planes, but if you lose half your planes taking Sydney or Hawaii, what’s been destroying India and China during that offensive?  You can’t do both at the same time with the same effectiveness as a single target.  And what’s left to counter the ever-growing American fleet?

In my worst game here online, I lost 12 planes after completely taking China and India. That left 16 planes.  Easily more than what I needed to take Sydney.

If you have something that works, try it out.  Gargantua and Calvin and Hobbesliker are testing out an idea against me as well.  They’ve already shown me some interesting moves I like (but I think I’m still going to win both  :-D )

Again, though, I repeat:  when AAE40 gets here, who is going to play pacific as a stand alone game?  I think we all (me included) will move onto the new game and on occasion play the combined game.

Kauf - your idea sounds like it may grind out a few more Jap planes.  If I have less than a dozen planes, I find that I can’t take Sydney by turn 7.  Care to try it?

Cheers