Why are there Canadian roundels? A new rule perhaps?

@oztea:

Banter back and forth in my gaming group is that the Canadian roundels may sybolize a UK special power. The power would be that, if London falls, Canada “becomes” a power. Canada is controled by the UK player and can only collect Canadian IPCs.

This possibility stems from the fact that sea lion might succeed with a sly German player leading the Kreigsmarine. Considering there will likeley be 3 turns to play with untill the US and Russia become active, a jab at London would change the game irrevicably. Therefore, I susspect, and hope that if this happens the UK continues to fight, colleting some IPCs in an attempt to liberate the home islands

Thoughts?
Or am i just crazy kreig….

I definitely think that Canada and Anzac should fight on. Although maybe not so much Egypt, India, or South Africa.

@The:

I definitely think that Canada and Anzac should fight on. Although maybe not so much Egypt, India, or South Africa.

Now we need a “Vichy UK” rule. We can’t even get the historical Vichy France in the game and you guys want an ahistorical rule. Good luck.

How is it ahistorical, really? Its a situation that never came up, so we can’t really say that its going against history. I think if the British Isles fell then Anzac and Canada definitely would have fought on. Anzac would actually need an additional rule to make this not true since it is a seperate power. Assuming Canada has a split income, it makes good sense for it to be able to fight on without the British Isles.

Winston Churchill had his government all ready to move to Canada to continue the fight with the remainder of the British fleet in 1940.

He even said this in his “fight them on the beaches” speech.

@Tralis:

How is it ahistorical, really? Its a situation that never came up, so we can’t really say that its going against history. I think if the British Isles fell then Anzac and Canada definitely would have fought on. Anzac would actually need an additional rule to make this not true since it is a seperate power. Assuming Canada has a split income, it makes good sense for it to be able to fight on without the British Isles.

When I stated ahistorical, I meant that it didn’t happen, not that it wouldn’t have happened had certain events took place.

That is a very good thought OZ. As you mentioned the US & Russia may not be at war at the point of an early successful Sea Lion. There should be a minor IC in E Canada to start. This very well could be part of the political rules for Europe. I for one would welcome it, England definitely had a contingency plan in place. It wouldn’t be over whelming, because Canada won’t have more then 7-8 ipc’s (which I think is low). If it didn’t make the rules (should have been considered), it would be a great house rule.

but for that to work, we need to know if Sea lion is truly feasible. Otherwise, the rule won’t be needed

Well, I’ve been reading all this stuff about Canadian roundels and one power having split income with everyone 99.9% sure that it’ll be the UK, and while the idea that the UK’s income will be split between India and Great Britain (i.e. all UK territories from the Pacific half of the game will give income to India and all UK territories from the Europe half of the game will give income to Great Britain) sounds like a decent enough plan, I think that it doesn’t fit with the already established no-split US.

One of the things that Larry seems to have been doing with the game recently is expanding from the initial simplified setup of combining the whole English commonwealth into the UK, lumping China in with the US, and packaging Italy into Germany that we had with all the versions so far except AA50.  Now we know we already have a separate Italy, China, ANZAC, and all the neutral countries actually being represented on the board; so the other obvious sovereign nation that should receive separate representation is Canada (hence the “do you want canada as a power?” thread)/  India and South Africa were still more or less colonies of the UK at the time, but Australia, New Zealand, and Canada were independent nations, so it makes some sense that colonies would still provide income to the Mother Country, but independent nations wouldn’t provide income directly, even with trade and such (which isn’t represented in A&A anyway).  Separating Australia/New Zealand from the UK as ANZAC works for gameplay by putting more into the Pacific theater, but separating Canada from the UK wouldn’t serve much purpose historically or gameplay-wise as they worked so closely together and there are already enough European-focused Allied countries.

If you combine this “expansion” idea with the information we know about Canada having different roundels on its territories and the hint about UK (presumably) having a split income, I think I’ve come up with another scenario that Larry could be doing with Europe and the Global game: UK/Canada as a combo “power”!  Canada has its own separate income from its own territories that it spends at its own IC (indicative of an independent country), but Canada and the UK fight together with conglomerate troops (indicative of their military cooperation).  No messy “joint-strike” rules.  The UK/Canada team can build its navy in Canada safely away from any German planes and could defend Canada better in case of a KAF attack by the Japanese.  There won’t be any cardboard roundels for Canada because any new territories captured would go to the UK, as is more accurate historically.  This would be waaay less messy than trying to figure out whether a captured territories’ income goes to India or Great Britain and would fit with a power’s income not being forced to go specifically to one theater or the other.

I don’t think Larry is ready to go to the level of complexity necessary to account for transportation of income across oceans, I think he’s leaving it the same it has always been except for adding convoys, and this explanation accounts for Canada being the other “semi-major” power of the UK commonwealth along with ANZAC, the Canadian roundels, and the split income hint: everything!  :mrgreen:

The scenario of the UK government moving to Canada in the event of a Sea Lion invasion of Great Britain could also easily be incorporated into this setup as if London falls (especially before the USSR or the US declares war), the UK income would go to the captor and nothing could be built at India either, but the Allies wouldn’t completely lose a nation or a turn, as Canada would be able to fight on during that turn and build units at their own IC in an attempt to free Great Britain; just as would have happened historically.

Maybe the Canadian roundels are for future plans to make an advanced 1940 Global game.

@Brain:

Maybe the Canadian roundels are for future plans to make an advanced 1940 Global game.

What!?! Wotc planning ahead?!?  :-o

@SilverAngelSurfer:

I don’t think Larry is ready to go to the level of complexity necessary to account for transportation of income across oceans, I think he’s leaving it the same it has always been except for adding convoys, and this explanation accounts for Canada being the other “semi-major” power of the UK commonwealth along with ANZAC, the Canadian roundels, and the split income hint: everything!  :mrgreen:

Your lengthy but well written post is the best I’ve read so far about all this Canada as a power business…though, just for fun, I will likely use those mint green units for Canada  :-D

Adam: since your very good with your recent air flight tokens… can you also make some replacement Air Base, Naval Base, and major and Minor factory tokens?

I really think your good with this type of thing and here i will make it a sticky along with the guy who made the player aids for AAP50

What you think? you up for a challenge?

@adam.hall:

@SilverAngelSurfer:

I don’t think Larry is ready to go to the level of complexity necessary to account for transportation of income across oceans, I think he’s leaving it the same it has always been except for adding convoys, and this explanation accounts for Canada being the other “semi-major” power of the UK commonwealth along with ANZAC, the Canadian roundels, and the split income hint: everything!  :mrgreen:

Your lengthy but well written post is the best I’ve read so far about all this Canada as a power business…though, just for fun, I will likely use those mint green units for Canada  :-D

Well, thank you for the vote of confidence.  8-)  Assuming that I’m correct, I figure that the “Canadian” troops will be the same tan color as the UK (if Italian pieces aren’t important enough, no way Canadian pieces would be), especially if they’re playing as a single “power”.  I think it’d be cool to use different colored pieces for those that start in Canada or are produced in Canada.  Others have suggested using white pieces from the old Europe game I believe.

That’s the idea.  :-D

@oztea:

Is it possible perhaps that the UK will be treated as a power with two capitals?
Ottowa and London. If either is captured, the axis player gets half of the UK’s IPCs
The UK continues to be a regular power, but with one capital that can only collect like symboled IPCs

Would that be fair to the other natios? Having a back-up capital? The US could definitely use Western US as a back-up capital.

Me and my friends actually believe that all of the provinces will be shown

Why bother with British Colombia and Yukon if its not to show all of the provinces and territories? In the old games, it was Western Canada (just like its WUSA, CUSA, EUSA)

So, if Canada gets all its provinces, and assuming no major mistakes, the East (Ontario and Quebec) are probably going to be 2-3 (or maybe more, but I doubt) ipc territory

So
British Colombia = 1ipc
Alberta = 1 ipc (sorry folks, no oil yet :)
Saskatchewan = 1 ipc
Manitoba = 1 ipc
Ontaria = 3 ipc (its probably the richest Canadian province at that time)
Quebec = 2 ipc (really not sure about this one. I’m pretty sure Quebec gets its economy boom after the war)
New Brunswick =1 ipc
Prince Edward = 0-1 ipc
New Scotland = 1 ipc
New Foundland = 1ipc
Northern territories/Nunavut = 0 ipc (If its worth anything, its 1)

No harm intended against my fellow Canadian friends. I’m just speaking gameplay and not about the general value of each province.

There will likely be some naval port and air port in the East coast. Where? I don’t know enough about WWII and Canadian history to speak.

Again, these are just estimations. I don’t have extensive knowledge of Canadian economy during WWII to know if its correct or not. Maybe someone else can complete the work?

Canada could easily fetch in the 12-15 ipc. That should be enough for Canada to be an Allied power right? Anzac has 10. So if Canada can get more. Plus, if they have 1-2 NO, that should be decent enough.

It will obviously weaken UK (if Canada is indeed separated). But that being said, I still see UK being in the 40, maybe even 50 ipc at the start of the game (don’t forget that he will lose alot of money against Japan in the Pacific (Borneo, Kwantung are easily taken.)