@Imperious-Leader https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/34909/1942-second-edition-house-rules-for-a-more-interesting-game/44
Here is my latest file I know that it was seen before but anyone looking at this post for rules may be interested.
AARHE: Rule files
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@Imperious:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ntw0nuzm2zc
here is latest Lite proposal.
my participation in discussion of new rules will start, after top level conflicts of the project is resolved
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let me present the first section to discuss:
Income collection changes for western allies:
Axis players keep income for neutral conquests, but the western allies do not collect when they liberate, the Soviet player does collect for ‘liberated’ territories. Example: British player captures France and the IPC is subtracted from German totals and not added to British total. The Allies do not gain from taking territories.
Phase 1: Collect Income
Income
Add up values of territories and subtract loses due to economic attacks in enemy’s last turn. No territory income can be reduced below zero due to Strategic Bombing Runs (SBR) or Rocket attacks. Each player pays 1 IPC for every unit occupying a desert terrain. Pay 1 IPC for every land unit offloaded in an amphibious assault or airborne drop during your last turn. If you don’t have enough income to pay the balance will be carried to next turn.Convoy Raid Attack
Any German naval ships including submarines and surface ships located in the Atlantic or Indian Ocean roll one die and perform a convoy raid attack. The Allies (UK or USA) decide amongst themselves who pays the money lost. The American or British player in the Pacific Ocean can also do this against the Japanese player but only with submarines located within 2 sea zones of the Japanese Islands.Procedure: move sub in sea zone with convoy box roll d6
1-2= 1 IPC lost
3-4= 2 IPC lost
5-6= 3 IPC lost -
yep one section at one time, as ordered by 4.0 draft 2008-11-02
Axis players keep income for neutral conquests…The Allies do not gain from taking territories.
the “Axis is bad” theme eh…
don’t mind too much, except I want neutrals to be optional (I am thinking rules deemed too much for the masses shall be optional, we’ll discuss as we get to them)Phase 1: Collect Income
Economic Attacks - you written it under new Income heading…I am ok
Production Interruption - you didn’t include it under new Income heading so I presume you want to remove it….I am ok
Logistics - you written it under new Income heading…I want to remove amphibous assault cost and only have desert and airborne assault cost
Spending or Saving IPC + Convoy Raid - I am sure you want to remove my system…discussion below:
rehash the long convoy discussion many months ago:
I prefer submarines hitting IPC movement.
You prefer submarines doing damage via dice.
I don’t like your system hitting non-existing war shipping and enforcing history rather than base on current in-game situation.
You don’t like my system producing outcomes different to WWII.I am happy to move my system into optional rules.
So we use your system, but some tuning.*It doesn’t depend on current in-game situation we’ll say its hitting trade shipping instead of war shipping. So we’ll have to cap it. Don’t want it to be funny like Japan holds one island but is totally wasted (into 0 IPC) even though they hold all of mainland Asia. To go with your idea of reflecting historic shipping amounts and raiding capabilities, German can do good damage while US can do some damage.
*OOB’s 1 IPC per submarine was already distorting gameplay. So just 1 IPC will do. No need to roll d6. Less unneeded dice the better anyway.Proposal: Max 15 IPC for UK+US. Max 6 IPC for Japan. 1 IPC per submarine. No “convoy box”, descriptions like “Atlantic or Indian Ocean” will do.
Lend-Lease - if we keep Lend-Lease, we’ll have to add to convoy raid
Northern Altantic Ocean, German submarine against USSR
max damage is the Lend-Lease sentNaval repair - lets simplify
proposal text: Damaged ships are turned upright if its next to a friendly Industrial Complex. -
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Axis players keep income for neutral conquests…The Allies do not gain from taking territories.
the “Axis is bad” theme eh…
don’t mind too much, except I want neutrals to be optional (I am thinking rules deemed too much for the masses shall be optional, we’ll discuss as we get to them)yes basically the allies liberate, the axis conquer. for IPC only the ‘plundering’ nation should benefit.
Phase 1: Collect Income
Economic Attacks - you written it under new Income heading…I am ok
Production Interruption - you didn’t include it under new Income heading so I presume you want to remove it…I am ok
yes one replaces the other. Income interruption was something like an old witches tale. It was so convoluted. IN this case we need right to the point rules that ONLY effect specific parties and Xeno style is the only way to get the point across easily.
Logistics - you written it under new Income heading…I want to remove amphibious assault cost and only have desert and airborne assault cost
ok we can remove the cost for landing troops. done. How bout we just have 1 IPC cost for non-land linked land territories
in Africa for each unit beyond the total transports?Example: Axis have 2 transports, so all units greater than 4 cost 1 IPC to maintain in Africa?
Spending or Saving IPC + Convoy Raid - I am sure you want to remove my system…discussion below:
rehash the long convoy discussion many months ago:
I prefer submarines hitting IPC movement.
You prefer submarines doing damage via dice.
I don’t like your system hitting non-existing war shipping and enforcing history rather than base on current in-game situation.
You don’t like my system producing outcomes different to WWII.All i would like to see is a very basic idea that subs can attack a nations economy of the island nations. Thats only UK and Japan. IN UK’s case Germany effects them and for Japan its USA. IN terms of what effects them we assign subs, but for Germany we add surface warships which are raiders preying on commerce. The old system as riddled with the possibility that Germans, Americans and Soviets could lose IPC from enemy subs. I suppose that did happen on a limited level, but we don’t want a game where everybody is building subs…we just want to add a little spice to model the actual warfare.
I am happy to move my system into optional rules.
So we use your system, but some tuning.ok optional rules, but in a separate appendix. along with all the other stuff, 1942 Italy, 1939 etc…
*It doesn’t depend on current in-game situation we’ll say its hitting trade shipping instead of war shipping. So we’ll have to cap it. Don’t want it to be funny like Japan holds one island but is totally wasted (into 0 IPC) even though they hold all of mainland Asia. To go with your idea of reflecting historic shipping amounts and raiding capabilities, German can do good damage while US can do some damage.
IN keeping it minimal we assign one allied and one axis nation these capabilities, because most of the lost shipping came from these two examples.
*OOB’s 1 IPC per submarine was already distorting gameplay. So just 1 IPC will do. No need to roll d6. Less unneeded dice the better anyway.
SO you don’t like the fun of rolling it out? I think its fun to get to roll dice and possibly get 1,2 or 3 IPC damage.
Proposal: Max 15 IPC for UK+US. Max 6 IPC for Japan. 1 IPC per submarine. No “convoy box”, descriptions like “Atlantic or Indian Ocean” will do.
Well a cealing on damage could work, but you have to assign the sea zones, or else US submarines anywhere in the board can say" i am attacking japan from Brazil" You have to establish specific ocean zones that apply.
Lend-Lease - if we keep Lend-Lease, we’ll have to add to convoy raid
Northern Altantic Ocean, German submarine against USSR
max damage is the Lend-Lease sentyes we need to add a Murmansk convoy box so Germans can sink LL IPC
Naval repair - lets simplify
proposal text: Damaged ships are turned upright if its next to a friendly Industrial Complex.I see your idea: to make it simple, but the problem is also that people buy the BB, then they just take free hits on them and retreat and never lose anything. To stop this we install a cost for the 2 hit ships, so they need to pay.
Perhaps just the D6 roll=damage cost and remove the second die? WE have to model the cost of doing battle or people take advantage of free hits which is bogus. Moving to your factory is possible in one turn for the most part in most games, but a cost linked would make it realistic so that your heavy capital ships are in dry dock for repairs of up to 6 months. Think like the lost BB’s at the Hawaii attack. it took years to get them back in order.
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please post a file everytime we finish with a game phase
the first only would be MSWORD convert of 2008-11-02 version of 4.0 draft
with no changes besides those in “phase 0” and phase 1Phase 1: Collect Income
Economic Attacks - done
Production Interruption - removed
Logistics
Example: Axis have 2 transports, so all units greater than 4 cost 1 IPC to maintain in Africa?
it’ll be unrealistic cos say the German transports could be in the Baltic
also, think the goal at the moment is to
*simplify complex but important rules
*remove or make optional complex but unimportant rules (rules that only affect non-core gameplay anyway)Spending or Saving IPC - removed
Convoy Raid
SO you don’t like the fun of rolling it out? I think its fun to get to roll dice and possibly get 1,2 or 3 IPC damage
removing unneeded dice is only secondary
the primary issue is I think 1 IPC per submarine is powerful enough alreadyLend-Lease - done
Naval repair
yeah ideally there should be cost and time
but we have to find something simple
cost: ok d6 is fine
time: you cannot use the unit this turn -
please post a file everytime we finish with a game phase
yes will do this.
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Logistics
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Example: Axis have 2 transports, so all units greater than 4 cost 1 IPC to maintain in Africa?
it’ll be unrealistic cos say the German transports could be in the BalticOh yes i guess i didnt say transports in Medd. OK lets remove logistics for now and come back.
also, think the goal at the moment is to
*simplify complex but important rules
*remove or make optional complex but unimportant rules (rules that only affect non-core gameplay anyway)Spending or Saving IPC - removed
Convoy Raid
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SO you don’t like the fun of rolling it out? I think its fun to get to roll dice and possibly get 1,2 or 3 IPC damage
removing unneeded dice is only secondary
the primary issue is I think 1 IPC per submarine is powerful enough alreadyok lets do this… which is the original idea from day one… 1 IPC but for each sub in specific ocean…or somebody buys subs out of harms way to qualify.
Lend-Lease - done
Naval repair
yeah ideally there should be cost and time
but we have to find something simple
cost: ok d6 is fine
time: you cannot use the unit this turnright 1 D6, plus you wait one turn for repair to conclude and its done at SZ adjacent to factory. Also, if you roll 1-2 perhaps you can repair at neutral -1/+1 ( the ones you can dock at)
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ok lets do this… which is the original idea from day one… 1 IPC but for each sub in specific ocean…or somebody buys subs out of harms way to qualify.
yeah is has to be general enough yet not irrelevant
don’t want to bleed players neitherproposal text (informal langauge):
_Convoy Raid
You collect 1 less IPC from an Island in the Pacific Ocean for every enemy submarine in its adjacent sea zone.The UK player collects 1 less IPC for each German submarine or destroyer in sea zones 7 to 15 and 33 to 35. Maximum damage is 10 IPC.
The USSR player collects 1 less Lend-Lease IPC for each German submarine or destroyer in sea zones 3 and 4. Maximum damage is 5 IPC._
right 1 D6, plus you wait one turn for repair to conclude and its done at SZ adjacent to factory. Also, if you roll 1-2 perhaps you can repair at neutral -1/+1 ( the ones you can dock at)
yeah we’ll work on neutrals in phase 8 diplomacy
especially since I am leaning towards neutrals should be optionalproposal text:
Naval Repair
Damaged naval units can be repaired in sea zones adjacent to a friendly Industrial Complex. Roll a die and pay the value in IPC. Place the unit in the territory and return it to the sea zone upright in “Mobilize New Units” phase. -
i am going on a trip till wednesday so i cant respond till then.
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ok lets do this… which is the original idea from day one… 1 IPC but for each sub in specific ocean…or somebody buys subs out of harms way to qualify.
yeah is has to be general enough yet not irrelevant
don’t want to bleed players neitherproposal text (informal langauge):
Convoy Raid
You collect 1 less IPC from an Island in the Pacific Ocean for every enemy submarine in its adjacent sea zone.The UK player collects 1 less IPC for each German submarine or destroyer in sea zones 7 to 15 and 33 to 35. Maximum damage is 10 IPC.
The USSR player collects 1 less Lend-Lease IPC for each German submarine or destroyer in sea zones 3 and 4. Maximum damage is 5 IPC.
I like the text, but not liking the IPC cap. I dont think it should be capped. Also, If a German sub is in specific SZ, i propose this:
German player takes all his subs and consults a chart and rolls a die. He indexes his result with his total number of subs and targets either UK or USA. I will make a chart for each. That way is not so fixed and the result can target one or the other.
You can also do it this way: all subs within 2 SZ of a UK or USA territory roll on these charts, so you need subs near those territory to qualify.
ON lend lease, you take total subs German has and references it to total Lend Lease, so if USA sends in more, then more can be sunk
example: Germany has 3 subs, usa sent 12 IPC…rolls die…then Germans sink 4 IPC
Germany has 3 subs, usa sent 20 IPC…rolls die…then Germans sink 7 IPC
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right 1 D6, plus you wait one turn for repair to conclude and its done at SZ adjacent to factory. Also, if you roll 1-2 perhaps you can repair at neutral -1/+1 ( the ones you can dock at)
yeah we’ll work on neutrals in phase 8 diplomacy
especially since I am leaning towards neutrals should be optionalproposal text:
Naval Repair
Damaged naval units can be repaired in sea zones adjacent to a friendly Industrial Complex. Roll a die and pay the value in IPC. Place the unit in the territory and return it to the sea zone upright in “Mobilize New Units” phase.ok i am good with this. Diplomacy would be optional BUT included with the document.
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ok no caps
forgot about UK Lend Lease
adding that now, but think its simpler to have no overlapping sea zones between UK and Lend Lease shippping
giving the two distinct sea zones, since shipping from UK colonies are going via east Altantic not west Altanticproposal text
_Convoy Raid
You collect 1 less IPC from an Island in the Pacific Ocean for every enemy submarine in the Island’s sea zone.The UK player collects 1 less IPC for each German submarine or destroyer in sea zones 7, 8, 11, and 12.
The Allies receive 1 less Lend-Lease IPC for each German submarine or destroyer in sea zones 1,2, 3, 4, 9 and 10. Damages in sea zone 3 and 4 can only be applied to USSR._
@Imperious:
I like the text, but not liking the IPC cap. I dont think it should be capped.
yeah ok
I’ve got rid of the cap as you wish, if you change your mind we can set a new higher limitThe reason for capping is that the new system models hitting general shipping rather than flow of war shippping. War economy has more immunity than general economy. Also, wouldn’t want to see players bleed ridiculously.
Also, If a German sub is in specific SZ, i propose this:
German player takes all his subs and consults a chart and rolls a die. He indexes his result with his total number of subs and targets either UK or USA. I will make a chart for each. That way is not so fixed and the result can target one or the other.Consulting a chart might be too much. The new system should be simpler than the old system.
Recall the primary reason for not using dice is that 1 IPC per submarine is powerful enough. Secondary reason was so we have a simpler rule.You can also do it this way: all subs within 2 SZ of a UK or USA territory roll on these charts, so you need subs near those territory to qualify.
Wait. Remember you wanted to have specific sea zone so the game is not decided in Brazil lol.
Also, it was your idea that US, Germany and USSR be not affected by Convoy Raids. Only UK, Pacific and Lend Lease.ON lend lease, you take total subs German has and references it to total Lend Lease, so if USA sends in more, then more can be sunk
example: Germany has 3 subs, usa sent 12 IPC…rolls die…then Germans sink 4 IPC
Germany has 3 subs, usa sent 20 IPC…rolls die…then Germans sink 7 IPCyeah ok
no limits to lend lease damageok i am good with this. Diplomacy would be optional BUT included with the document.
yeah ok
since it is a phase in the turn sequence, its reasonable to give exception to Diplomacy and include in the main document -
proposal text
Convoy RaidYou collect 1 less IPC from an Island in the Pacific Ocean for every enemy submarine in the Island’s sea zone.
The UK player collects 1 less IPC for each German submarine or destroyer in sea zones 7, 8, 11, and 12.
The Allies receive 1 less Lend-Lease IPC for each German submarine or destroyer in sea zones 1,2, 3, 4, 9 and 10. Damages in sea zone 3 and 4 can only be applied to USSR.
I think the UK and USA should be expanded: USA east coast and gulf of Mexico/west indies/Brazil. UK: some SZ off africa and off Middle east
Quote from: Imperious Leader on December 11, 2008, 12:29:25 pm
I like the text, but not liking the IPC cap. I dont think it should be capped.
yeah ok
I’ve got rid of the cap as you wish, if you change your mind we can set a new higher limitThe reason for capping is that the new system models hitting general shipping rather than flow of war shippping. War economy has more immunity than general economy. Also, wouldn’t want to see players bleed ridiculously.
For UK to bleed that much Germany would need to build way too many subs and lose the game elsewhere.
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Also, If a German sub is in specific SZ, i propose this:
German player takes all his subs and consults a chart and rolls a die. He indexes his result with his total number of subs and targets either UK or USA. I will make a chart for each. That way is not so fixed and the result can target one or the other.
Consulting a chart might be too much. The new system should be simpler than the old system.
Recall the primary reason for not using dice is that 1 IPC per submarine is powerful enough. Secondary reason was so we have a simpler rule.ok we keep it simple.
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You can also do it this way: all subs within 2 SZ of a UK or USA territory roll on these charts, so you need subs near those territory to qualify.
Wait. Remember you wanted to have specific sea zone so the game is not decided in Brazil lol.
Also, it was your idea that US, Germany and USSR be not affected by Convoy Raids. Only UK, Pacific and Lend Lease.ok ok
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ON lend lease, you take total subs German has and references it to total Lend Lease, so if USA sends in more, then more can be sunk
example: Germany has 3 subs, usa sent 12 IPC…rolls die…then Germans sink 4 IPC
Germany has 3 subs, usa sent 20 IPC…rolls die…then Germans sink 7 IPC
yeah ok
no limits to lend lease damageok ok
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ok i am good with this. Diplomacy would be optional BUT included with the document.
yeah ok
since it is a phase in the turn sequence, its reasonable to give exception to Diplomacy and include in the main documentok ok ill make these changes and revise text. Ill post it tomorrow or monday. Then we continue on next section.
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@Imperious:
I think the UK and USA should be expanded: USA east coast and gulf of Mexico/west indies/Brazil. UK: some SZ off africa and off Middle east
not hitting USA and Russia now so don’t need Mexio Brazil etc
for UK I did thought about South Africa or Egypt SZ
but its unrealistic for UK to transport through Med Sea if Axis took Egypt
to avoid complex rule to cater for Med Sea route vs. South Africa route…think its neat to only have East Altantic, the final destination for both routeThe reason for capping is that the new system models hitting general shipping rather than flow of war
shippping. War economy has more immunity than general economy. Also, wouldn’t want to see players bleed ridiculously.For UK to bleed that much Germany would need to build way too many subs and lose the game elsewhere.
yeah for simplicity I agreed to remove the cap away and adjusted the proposal text
was just stating a strange situation that could happen
all goodok ok ill make these changes and revise text. Ill post it tomorrow or monday. Then we continue on next section.
hopefully the new file follows our discussion sharply
yeah already looking forward to phase 2: purchase units and developmentsalso we could do phase 0 first
I was thinking we could remove
*references to websites to download AARHE
*references to websites to buy game pieces
*victory cities with 0 victory city points (since the only purpose of them was to repair naval units but we only allow that at an Industrial Complex now) -
hopefully the new file follows our discussion sharply
yes exactly.
yeah already looking forward to phase 2: purchase units and developments
also we could do phase 0 first
WE should do the parts in the same sequence as they are printed in the file so its easy to track.
I was thinking we could remove
*references to websites to download AARHE
*references to websites to buy game pieces
*victory cities with 0 victory city points (since the only purpose of them was to repair naval units but we only allow that at an Industrial Complex now)Lets not get hasty till we are done and need to integrate it as replacement for lite 1.0
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if you are busy I can do the compiling
this file contains only Phase 1: collect incomehttp://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20081218experimental.doc
http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20081218experimental.pdfcheck to make sure we understood each other correctly
Phase 2: Purchase Units and Developments
Variable Industrial Complex Costs, Scorched Earth
Thinking of putting it together under one heading Industrial Complex.
You proposed “cost = 15 - IPC”. I am ok.Variable Infantry Costs
In http://www.mediafire.com/?ntw0nuzm2zc you proposed “infantry per turn = IPC”. I am ok but I want “build infantry at VC only” rule to remain.
You didn’t proposed infantry cost changes. No changes from me at this stage.Purchase Developments
In http://www.mediafire.com/?ntw0nuzm2zc you didn’t proposed changes. No changes from me at this stage. -
Yea i have been busy…
Phase 2: Purchase Units and Developments
Variable Industrial Complex Costs, Scorched Earth
Thinking of putting it together under one heading Industrial Complex.
You proposed “cost = 15 - IPC”. I am ok.yes this is a simple way to do it.done.
Variable Infantry Costs
In http://www.mediafire.com/?ntw0nuzm2zc you proposed “infantry per turn = IPC”. I am ok but I want “build infantry at VC only” rule to remain.
You didn’t proposed infantry cost changes. No changes from me at this stage.Yea infantry at VC limited by the value of the VC in addition to the rule from OOB. But at original home factories you should be able to build non infantry pieces limited by IPC PLUS infantry also at this level again limited by IPC
So at Germany they can make 10 infantry and 10 units of any other type except infantry…. Important to know that you cant build 11 or more infantry in Germany at any time.
Purchase Developments
In http://www.mediafire.com/?ntw0nuzm2zc you didn’t proposed changes. No changes from me at this stage.Ill post the next section tonight.
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Tunisia
was not spelled correctly.
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But at original home factories you should be able to build non infantry pieces limited by IPC PLUS infantry also at this level again limited by IPC
Yeah. But this limit already applies to all IC.
Original or not, an IC can only produce a number of non-infantry units up to its IPC value.Purchase Developments
Can we simplify this one. Instead of the current free/purchasableGermany 2/4
Italy 1/2
Japan 1/3
Soviet Union 1/3
United Kingdom 1/2
United States 2/4Can we just make it
Germany and US 2/4
Other 1/2Victory City (non-binding discussing, just an understanding)
now that we have a simpler infantry limit, we no longer require victory city points varying between 0 and- 6 points. I sugguest simplify to major cities 2 points and minor cities 1 point. We’ll talk about this when we get back to introduction / game sequence. -
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But at original home factories you should be able to build non infantry pieces limited by IPC PLUS infantry also at this level again limited by IPC
Yeah. But this limit already applies to all IC.
Original or not, an IC can only produce a number of non-infantry units up to its IPC value.I am saying something different. at original home factories you are limited as follows:
- you can build non infantry up to IPC value
- you can ALSO build infantry up to IPC value
so in berlin you can build 10 tanks and 10 infantry, but you cant build 15 infantry and 5 tanks. This is not OOB rules at all.
this is different. AT VC you again go by the value of IPC and can build only infantry at this value.Purchase Developments
Can we simplify this one. Instead of the current free/purchasableGermany 2/4
Italy 1/2
Japan 1/3
Soviet Union 1/3
United Kingdom 1/2
United States 2/4Can we just make it
Germany and US 2/4
Other 1/2Isn’t this too soon?
Victory City (non-binding discussing, just an understanding)
now that we have a simpler infantry limit, we no longer require victory city points varying between 0 and- 6 points. I sugguest simplify to major cities 2 points and minor cities 1 point. We’ll talk about this when we get back to introduction / game sequence.I think alot of discussion went on these points and for various reasons they were assigned this value and its printed on the map, so not sure if changes would ruin the game. They focus historical based objectives from these values. If it was 2 and 1 players would treat the VC as the same and not focus on the strong points… Thus battle of Stalingrad may never develop
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so in berlin you can build 10 tanks and 10 infantry, but you cant build 15 infantry and 5 tanks. This is not OOB rules at all.
yeah I know
I confirm with another example
Southern Europe can build 6 tanks and 6 infantryIsn’t this too soon?
what do you mean by “too soon”?
you mean too rushed ?
I am not sugguesting this change for balance
just trying to say it warrants a simplificationyou mean too early in game sequence / document ?
in AARHE we buy developement dice before combat, and roll for them after combat
so you can’t see tech result and perform combat accordingly
nor can you see combat result and buy tech dice accordingly
hence OOB’s the phase is called “purchase unit and developments”but if you feel its too tedious to make players buy the dice first and roll for them later in the turn
then we let them buy and roll in same game phase like OOBI think alot of discussion went on these points and for various reasons they were assigned this value and its printed on the map, so not sure if changes would ruin the game. They focus historical based objectives from these values. If it was 2 and 1 players would treat the VC as the same and not focus on the strong points… Thus battle of Stalingrad may never develop
yeah, that discussion was back in 2006, you me and The Duke mainly
we used a few matrices to determine infantry raising capacity of nations
this became the VCP values
it is used for infantry build limitwe now have a new infantry build limit (the victory city’s territory’s IPC)
realism is still there, as we have “variable infantry costs”VCPs is now only used for victory condition
so I sugguested a simplification to make it easier (eg. 2 VCP for Berlin, Rome, London….1 VCP for Kiev, Cairo…)
if you think its too simple we can have up to 3 points, or even 4 points
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