Expanding on Units - New and OOB Types

LHoffman

LHoffman, don’t forget light and heavy cruisers, with the coming American and German sets. We already have the Japanese ones.

Also don’t forget about armored cars, light armor, heavy artillery, as well as, light and heavy infantry.

These are just a few, I knew you didn’t have down. :-)

Holy crap!

That is a lot of stuff. And this brings up the other problem that I think has to be talked about: at what point do you have too many unit types?

As I said, I do believe there is some sort of critical mass. Based on the poll, some people believe we have already reached or exceeded it. And honestly I am not even sure that all the units I have proposed thus far will be regularly used. After so many units it becomes impossible to distinguish them in a D6 system, which I intend to use. You could add more units and expand to D12, but then you still have the cost problem, which is possibly even more inflexible.

As for heavy and light cruisers in particular, I am planning to just use said sculpts as normal cruisers. If nobody buys cruisers as they stand, I can see no reason why they would buy a heavy or light one.

John Brown

@LHoffman:

@John:

LHoffman, don’t forget light and heavy cruisers, with the coming American and German sets. We already have the Japanese ones.

Also don’t forget about armored cars, light armor, heavy artillery, as well as, light and heavy infantry.

These are just a few, I knew you didn’t have down. :-)

Holy crap!

That is a lot of stuff. And this brings up the other problem that I think has to be talked about: at what point do you have too many unit types?

As I said, I do believe there is some sort of critical mass. Based on the poll, some people believe we have already reached or exceeded it. And honestly I am not even sure that all the units I have proposed thus far will be regularly used. After so many units it becomes impossible to distinguish them in a D6 system, which I intend to use. You could add more units and expand to D12, but then you still have the cost problem, which is possibly even more inflexible.

As for heavy and light cruisers in particular, I am planning to just use said sculpts as normal cruisers. If nobody buys cruisers as they stand, I can see no reason why they would buy a heavy or light one.

Well this is why the 1936 game and the 1939 game uses a 12 sided die, for this very reason. It is impossible to incorporate a 6 sided die, unless you combine all artillery, tanks, mechs, fighters, and etc.

That is what you would probably have to do, is keep it simplified, if your using a 6 sided die, but everything HBG is planning, mostly uses 12 sided, but they still use 6 sided die on some things, but mostly 12 sided. :-)

LHoffman

@John:

Well this is why the 1936 game and the 1939 game uses a 12 sided die, for this very reason. It is impossible to incorporate a 6 sided die, unless you combine all artillery, tanks, mechs, fighters, and etc.

That is what you would probably have to do, is keep it simplified, if your using a 6 sided die, but everything HBG is planning, mostly uses 12 sided, but they still use 6 sided die on some things, but mostly 12 sided. :-)

I am not opposed to trying D12. I suppose I am just a traditionalist and I like the simplicity of D6.

To be honest, my idea so far has been to develop my own unit system to play on GW 36-45 or GW39. Only time will tell if that is viable or not.

CWO Marc

@LHoffman:

That is a lot of stuff. And this brings up the other problem that I think has to be talked about: at what point do you have too many unit types?

In my opinion, there’s a simple way to greatly increase unit diversity without making things hopelessly unmanageable:

Make a list of all the standard OOB units, giving for each one its price, combat values, special abilities and so forth.
Make a similar list for all the special extra units you wish to create.
Make a house rule stating that each power is allowed to buy any of standard unit types it wants, but is only allowed to buy two types of special unit in a given game.

The choices of special unit types can change from game to game, which would add diversity, but within a game each power is limited to just two types. The choices made within a game by the different powers don’t have to be the same, nor are any of the powers obliged to purchase any of these special units. In principle, therefore, the eight powers in Global that can buy multiple unit types (everyone except China) might choose to buy no special units, might all buy the same types of special units, might all buy different types of special units, or anything in between…so you might have anywhere from a minimum of 0 special unit types being used to a maximum of 8 x 2 = 16 special unit types being used. More likely it would be somewhere in between those extremities. Allowing just one special unit type per power would reduce the maximum from 16 to 8, if that’s more practical. And the list of special units might even restrict certain types to certain powers, rather than letting anyone build any unit type they want (which even for the standard unit types isn’t very realistic).

LHoffman

@CWO:

In my opinion, there’s a simple way to greatly increase unit diversity without making things hopelessly unmanageable:

Make a list of all the standard OOB units, giving for each one its price, combat values, special abilities and so forth.

Make a similar list for all the special extra units you wish to create.

Make a house rule stating that each power is allowed to buy any of standard unit types it wants, but is only allowed to buy two types of special unit in a given game.

The choices of special unit types can change from game to game, which would add diversity, but within a game each power is limited to just two types. The choices made within a game by the different powers don’t have to be the same, nor are any of the powers obliged to purchase any of these special units. In principle, therefore, the eight powers in Global that can buy multiple unit types (everyone except China) might choose to buy no special units, might all buy the same types of special units, might all buy different types of special units, or anything in between…so you might have anywhere from a minimum of 0 special unit types being used to a maximum of 8 x 2 = 16 special unit types being used. More likely it would be somewhere in between those extremities. Allowing just one special unit type per power would reduce the maximum from 16 to 8, if that’s more practical. And the list of special units might even restrict certain types to certain powers, rather than letting anyone build any unit type they want (which even for the standard unit types isn’t very realistic).

The challenge that would remain is still quantifying these units in terms of values and cost.

I would be interested to hear opinions on what specifically people think is enough or too much when it comes to types of units.

The list on page 1 is my own personal maximum… plus or minus 1 or 2. In D6, I don’t know how to expand much more and as I said, I don’t see how many added unit types (on top of those I have outlined) will be purchased on a regular basis.

While I tend believe more options is better, limited options contains its own elegance and moves the game forward with less deliberation. Ultimately, even my system will have to bow to simplicity and ease of use. So maybe some of my added units will be nerfed before this is all done.

Narvik

Don’t mess with the OOB units, they are balanced, and new rules will only confuse the average player that we lure into our basement for a rare game.

Its far better to introduce new unit types, and somehow make them fit in. Now since HBG is pumping out a lot of new units, the quest will be to pick the right ones and be prudent so the map don’t get cluttered or the game itself become derogatory to play.

I miss a Fortress unit. The game start with a German attack that just by-passed the Maginot Line. With no Fortress units the Germans should have gone straight into France and not bothered with Belgium. Likewise the Sigfried Line with bunkers, blockhouses and pillboxes successfully stopped the French from attacking when Germany was dealing with Poland, and it kept the Allies out of Germany for a year after the Normandy landing and Paris liberation. And the Atlantic Wall made the Allies attack in 1944 instead of 1942 that was their wish. On the Eastern Front, the Mannerheim Line kept Finland free of Red Army units for most of the war, and Manstein used a year to crush the Fortress at Sevastopol.

So how to make it balanced with the OOB units ?
I like to use the word Blockhouse since that was used in A&A D-Day. And I like to use the Amphibious Assault rules from A&A 1914, page 21 and 22, where the artillery unit fire preemptive on the landing units for the first round of combat. Of course it defend on a 1 for the rest of that turn, or when attacked from behind. This unit should be placed on a sea\land or land\land border. And a Blockhouse should of course absorb one hit, like the Tanks from A&A 1914.

Blockhouse, cost ?. Attack 0. Defend 3 or less in a preemptive roll first round of combat, and a 1 the rest of that turn. Absorb one hit. Must be placed on a sea\territory or terr\terr border, but like a facility they can be placed everywhere, don’t need a IC.

Self Propelled artillery is another unit that HBG have provided to all nations.
SP Art, cost 5 or 6, move 2, A2 D2 and boost a matching infantry. Blitz with a Tank.

I love the Paratrooper unit, and since HBG gave us that too, lets use it.
Two ways, it drop from a plane, or the Airfield token launch it 3 spaces away. Both ways work

Para, cost 4, move 1, Surprise attack 2 in the first round of combat if dropped from a plane. A1 D2 as standard infantry

I also like Tech upgrades with own sculpts, like Jet planes, or ASW planes that sink Subs without a Destroyer, and Super Subs.

LHoffman

@Narvik:

Don’t mess with the OOB units, they are balanced, and new rules will only confuse the average player that we lure into our basement for a rare game.

For me at least, bringing a newbie to the game in person is very much a rarity. So I have not been considering rules which cater to lesser knowledge and experience, but rather the reverse. Not to say that should mean the rules are any more complicated or confusing, just that their implementation is informed by lots of playing time. Ideally they should just be improvements on the game in general. If modded rules are simple enough, there should be no fear of confusing anyone; even a rookie.

@Narvik:

I miss a Fortress unit. The game start with a German attack that just by-passed the Maginot Line. With no Fortress units the Germans should have gone straight into France and not bothered with Belgium. Likewise the Sigfried Line with bunkers, blockhouses and pillboxes successfully stopped the French from attacking when Germany was dealing with Poland, and it kept the Allies out of Germany for a year after the Normandy landing and Paris liberation. And the Atlantic Wall made the Allies attack in 1944 instead of 1942 that was their wish. On the Eastern Front, the Mannerheim Line kept Finland free of Red Army units for most of the war, and Manstein used a year to crush the Fortress at Sevastopol.

This is a good point. Though other people have brought up the fortification unit, I never gave it much thought because A&A is a large scale, mobility-based game. However, your examples are compelling. Some of these considerations and delays are, perhaps inadvertently, already crafted into the game.

Some fortifications (Sigfried, Maginot, etc…) would be present to begin the game. Others (e.g. Atlantic Wall) would have to be deliberately constructed by Germany as the war goes on. The challenge would be making the fortification unit attractive enough in cost and utility to compete against normal units for your purchase. Would I rather have 2 infantry or 1 blockhouse unit? Infantry are cheaper, mobile, defend on twos. Blockhouses (theoretically) would be more expensive, immobile and have better initial strike but worse overall defense. I could easily see the German player NOT building blockhouses in favor of other units if the cost is 5 or greater.

It may not be necessary, but it seems logical that you would also institute a rule that any pre-battle bombardment shots would hit blockhouses first (before taking other units as casualties). This could be good or bad… blockhouses could act as hit absorbers but they would have to be cheap if so. It also would be odd to let blockhouses fire after they have been hit by a battleship or artillery pre-fire. Just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

@Narvik:

Self Propelled artillery is another unit that HBG have provided to all nations.
SP Art, cost 5 or 6, move 2, A2 D2 and boost a matching infantry. Blitz with a Tank.

I came to the conclusion that SPA really needs to be at $5. If you put it at $6, there is pretty much no reason why you shouldn’t instead buy a tank.
From earlier: Self-Propelled Artillery A2+ D2 M2 $5 - A3 when paired 1:1 with Armor units.

@Narvik:

I also like Tech upgrades with own sculpts, like Jet planes, or ASW planes that sink Subs without a Destroyer, and Super Subs.

Yes, I agree. I am kinda on the fence now with Tech, just because I feel it is tremendously under-utilized (because it is expensive and not guaranteed). If you do continue to use the Tech system, then yeah it is just as simple as using the new sculpts in place of the old. The way I envision things is that what used to be tech upgrades are simply new unit types that are available for purchase at some point… either due to modified tech rules or a turn-based introduction cycle. This way, if you get Jet Fighters, not all you fighters on the board are immediately converted. You have to buy Jet Fighters to use them. Having this extra cost for buying the units is pulling me away from having to spend money to research a development.

GODLEADER

In my version forteress cost 6 ipc, and give 4 infantry to defend at 3 for the first turn of combat. max of one forteress par territory.

LHoffman

@GODLEADER:

In my version forteress cost 6 ipc, and give 4 infantry to defend at 3 for the first turn of combat. max of one forteress par territory.

This, IMO, is a good and necessary addition. Increasing infantry defense for Rd.1 is critical and a big deal.

Narvik

@LHoffman:

It may not be necessary, but it seems logical that you would also institute a rule that any pre-battle bombardment shots would hit blockhouses first (before taking other units as casualties). This could be good or bad… blockhouses could act as hit absorbers but they would have to be cheap if so. It also would be odd to let blockhouses fire after they have been hit by a battleship or artillery pre-fire. Just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

The big idea with a bunker is to protect the men and weapons. If a blockhouse don’t absorb a hit, then there is no point in purchasing it. Its like a Battleship, they are designed to take a lot of beating. The Blockhouses at Omaha beach took a lot of beating from both Battleships and Bombers, but still survived to deal with the infantry in landing crafts

Narvik

@GODLEADER:

In my version forteress cost 6 ipc, and give 4 infantry to defend at 3 for the first turn of combat. max of one forteress par territory.

Even if its look playable for this game, I don’t like it because in the real world a fortress unit have different weapons, training and supply needs than a mobile infantry unit. The French fortress divisions in the Maginot Line could not be used in an attack against Germany because they only had defensive weapons. Barbed wire, mines, concrete and heavy mortars are not of much use in attacks.

And the other way, if an infantry unit is placed in a bunker line or trench, they keep their infantry weapons so their firepower stay the same. Your 6 IPC investment pays for the concrete, not big guns. If anything, the dug in infantry unit should defend at 1, since they have now lost their mobility. But they should take two hits to kill since they are now protected by concrete bunkers.

Me, I prefer a dedicated Blockhouse unit. It should not boost other units, because combined arms bonuses at the WWII time was only in attacks.

LHoffman

@Narvik:

@LHoffman:

It may not be necessary, but it seems logical that you would also institute a rule that any pre-battle bombardment shots would hit blockhouses first (before taking other units as casualties). This could be good or bad… blockhouses could act as hit absorbers but they would have to be cheap if so. It also would be odd to let blockhouses fire after they have been hit by a battleship or artillery pre-fire. Just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

The big idea with a bunker is to protect the men and weapons. If a blockhouse don’t absorb a hit, then there is no point in purchasing it. Its like a Battleship, they are designed to take a lot of beating. The Blockhouses at Omaha beach took a lot of beating from both Battleships and Bombers, but still survived to deal with the infantry in landing crafts

By saying that blockhouses “absorb” a hit, do you mean that they actually take 2 hits to destroy, similar to a battleship? To me, every unit is able to “absorb a hit”; battleships and carriers can just absorb one more than everything else.

@Narvik:

@GODLEADER:

In my version forteress cost 6 ipc, and give 4 infantry to defend at 3 for the first turn of combat. max of one forteress par territory.

Even if its look playable for this game, I don’t like it because in the real world a fortress unit have different weapons, training and supply needs than a mobile infantry unit. The French fortress divisions in the Maginot Line could not be used in an attack against Germany because they only had defensive weapons. Barbed wire, mines, concrete and heavy mortars are not of much use in attacks.

And the other way, if an infantry unit is placed in a bunker line or trench, they keep their infantry weapons so their firepower stay the same. Your 6 IPC investment pays for the concrete, not big guns. If anything, the dug in infantry unit should defend at 1, since they have now lost their mobility. But they should take two hits to kill since they are now protected by concrete bunkers.

Me, I prefer a dedicated Blockhouse unit. It should not boost other units, because combined arms bonuses at the WWII time was only in attacks.

Unfortunately, the level of abstraction in A&A prohibits true-to-life modeling of tactical interactions; we need to simplify and generalize. I see nothing wrong with giving infantry a +1 on defense with a fortification. Hearkens back to some of the Strategic Advantages in Revised (Dug in Defenders, Atlantic Wall and Fortress Europe). If anything, infantry’s limited weapons would be concentrated in specific areas where the enemy had to attack, giving their defense capabilities even greater impact.

If infantry firepower stays the same, their defense should not change. Reducing infantry defense in such a manner seems like a sure way to get people to NOT buy fortification pieces. If a blockhouse can already “absorb a hit” (or two hits?) it would be entirely redundant to allow infantry units to take yet another hit.

LHoffman

Another issue with Fortification pieces in A&A is that you can’t really represent how they are physically oriented. For example, the Maginot line was only effective if attacked from Germany directly. If Germany attacked from the North or behind (how they circumvented it), the fortifications were essentially useless. I believe that in HBG’s Global War 39 they addressed this by stating in the rules each starting fortification’s orientation and how they benefit the defender.

Some system would have to be developed for newly built fortifications to account for the orientation factor. Particularly if Germany is to build them along the coast of France. Maybe you need two unit types: a blockhouse for coastal defense and a fortification for non-coastal defense? If the Allies break through in Normandy and they attack Holland (where Germany built a blockhouse), does the blockhouse add to defense or get to defend and absorb hits or is it simply discarded since it is not oriented for a land assault?

Another thing to consider is whether or not either or both of these units have integral (field sized) guns, or if they are simply concrete bunkers giving defensive bonuses.

Narvik

A lot of rational questions.

As I stated in my first post, the Blockhouse must be placed on a coast or frontier, faced against the unfriendly space. I don’t know how to phrase it in a rulebook so everybody understand.
See attached pic how I imagine the Blockhouses being placed.

I figure that during a frontal attack against a defending Blockhouse, the Blockhouse will roll a preemptive high value dice, like 3 or less, maybe 4 or less. This is because the attackers don’t have much firepower when stuck in a Landing Craft, they need to hit the beach and drive the Tanks onshore before they can shoot back, and at this time most of the attackers are killed. Its pretty much the same when attacking the Maginot or Siegfried Lines, the attackers have to cross rivers, minefields and barbed wire, while being barraged and shelled, before they reach the Blockhouse and can start the actual attack.

Now this is the reason that frontal attacks against Blockhouses were so rare. The attackers always tried to by-pass it, or circumvent it as you say. And in that case, when circumvented, or after a breakthrough, then the Blockhouse is pretty much defenseless. So that justify a preemptive defense roll of 3 or less for the first round of combat when attacked in front, and a general defense roll of 1 for the rest of that turn, and no combat value at all when the attack come from another direction.

The primary job of a Blockhouse is to survive, so it must takes two hits to kill, just like a Battleship. When I say absorb one hit, I really say the Blockhouse absorb the first hit, and need an extra hit to be killed. This is the special ability of concrete bunkers, they die hard.

Good question. The Tank unit is not just some vehicles that you need an infantry unit to fill, so why should the Blockhouse unit be a concrete shell with no guns or men, so you need an infantry unit to fill it ?
I like the Blockhouse unit to represent a fortificated line with bunkers, barbed wire, minefields, big guns, machine guns and crew.

Another question, that I have no rational answers to, is the sequenced fire. AA-guns fire preemptive, Subs can in some cases fire preemptive, and a Blockhouse too should fire preemptive. Then we can ask, why cant Battleship shore bombardment be preemptive like it used to be in the early editions ? If you don’t want your infantry in Normandy to be killed by ships, then just build a Blockhouse. This start a slipperi slope of course, should paratroopers and Bombers roll preemptive too ? Or maybe there should be no preemptive fire ? After all, there never were any AA-fire so strong it whipped out all 500 planes before any could drop any bombs. Usually the Flak killed one or two planes, then the rest of the 500 planes dropped their bombs. Of course that would take the excitement out of SBR and make it a dull game.

Narvik

Back to topic. In the 90thies we had this Enemy in the Horizon supplement to the classic MB ed, with destroyers, paratroopers and heavy artillery.

I loved the Heavy Artillery unit. It cost 6, and could attack in two ways. Either a one time preemptive barrage of an adjacent territory by two dices with 3 or less as hits. Or in general combat with 4 or less as hit. It was weak in defense with only a 2 or less as hit.

Historically no gun was ever so big, or heavy, that it could kill 2 armies of 100 000 men in another country just by shelling, of course.

But it was cool.

attached pic of the units

GODLEADER

The 3 in defence for infantry is for the advandage in the fort…

GODLEADER

And for fortification absorb hit. Is False, the big majoritie of battleship and bomber do no have direct hit of fortification on D-Day.

LHoffman

@Narvik:

I figure that during a frontal attack against a defending Blockhouse, the Blockhouse will roll a preemptive high value dice, like 3 or less, maybe 4 or less. This is because the attackers don’t have much firepower when stuck in a Landing Craft, they need to hit the beach and drive the Tanks onshore before they can shoot back, and at this time most of the attackers are killed. Its pretty much the same when attacking the Maginot or Siegfried Lines, the attackers have to cross rivers, minefields and barbed wire, while being barraged and shelled, before they reach the Blockhouse and can start the actual attack.

I don’t have issue with that. I think it is a good way to make a blockhouse a more valuable unit. However, it also needs to be paired with the battleship bombardment topic below…

@Narvik:

Now this is the reason that frontal attacks against Blockhouses were so rare. The attackers always tried to by-pass it, or circumvent it as you say. And in that case, when circumvented, or after a breakthrough, then the Blockhouse is pretty much defenseless. So that justify a preemptive defense roll of 3 or less for the first round of combat when attacked in front, and a general defense roll of 1 for the rest of that turn, and no combat value at all when the attack come from another direction.

This is pretty accurate I would say, but there are a lot of moving parts. As in, there are a number of changing roll attributes based on defender orientation, attacker orientation and combat cycle. I have no problem following it, but I could see how in the game this could become frustrating.

@Narvik:

The primary job of a Blockhouse is to survive, so it must takes two hits to kill, just like a Battleship. When I say absorb one hit, I really say the Blockhouse absorb the first hit, and need an extra hit to be killed. This is the special ability of concrete bunkers, they die hard.

I also wouldn’t have a problem with this if it makes a blockhouse more valuable. I agree that as a fortification unit, some level of toughness or resiliency to attack should be accentuated. Taking (2) hits to destroy is a very apt representation of that. I also think that will make the attacker think twice about his move. Attacking any unit that can take (2) hits deserves careful consideration. Whatever Fortification Unit devised should instill that fear.

@Narvik:

Good question. The Tank unit is not just some vehicles that you need an infantry unit to fill, so why should the Blockhouse unit be a concrete shell with no guns or men, so you need an infantry unit to fill it ?
I like the Blockhouse unit to represent a fortificated line with bunkers, barbed wire, minefields, big guns, machine guns and crew.

I agree here also and I didn’t mean to imply that I suggested otherwise. Even as a typical blockhouse, the fortification unit should have some defense values of its own, independent of infantry or other units. Due to collection of machine guns, mortars, mines, etc… and basic infantry that staff the emplacements.

I was more getting at the distinction between blockhouses or other infantry based fortifications and fortified field-gun emplacements/anti-siege weapons. A blockhouse (aka pillbox type structures) are not the same as coastal gun emplacements with 12-inch cannons.

versus

Not the same. Would require different rules.

Unless of course you just wanted to totally simplify and have one fortification unit and be done with it.

@Narvik:

Another question, that I have no rational answers to, is the sequenced fire. AA-guns fire preemptive, Subs can in some cases fire preemptive, and a Blockhouse too should fire preemptive. Then we can ask, why cant Battleship shore bombardment be preemptive like it used to be in the early editions ? If you don’t want your infantry in Normandy to be killed by ships, then just build a Blockhouse.

The reason for having battleship bombardment is to simulate what battleships would be used for in an amphibious assault. This is not killing enemy infantry and tanks before landing troops. It is to destroy beach and coastal fortifications in order to clear a path for assault troops. Unfortunately, OOB rules do not include fortifications, so hits have to be applied to other units.

Arguably, battleship bombardment is too tactical of an ability for A&A and could be removed from the game. It doesn’t scale well and that is why the rule was revised: so defending units that get hit could still return fire. In real life, that would not happen. Likewise, as you pointed out, battleships or other heavy guns would be completely incapable of wiping out even a single division of soldiers, let alone about 20 in a given territory. Blockhouses/fortifications could alleviate this. Battleships should fire first and any hits should be removed before the next phase. As a defender, you would probably choose to apply these hits to your blockhouses first since they should be able to take (2) hits a piece and, IMO, they should either be cheap to build and have low hitting power or they should be moderately expensive with good hitting power. May have to look at limiting the number of blockhouses per territory somehow though.

Narvik

Good post, LHoffman and + to you.

For the record, when I say blockhouse, I talk about big coastal guns in casemates, like the Atlantic Wall or the Maginot Line or other strong fortifications, not a simple bunker, pillbox or foxhole that the infantry division dig when they are defending. I figure that barbed wire and trenches are what makes the infantry unit defend on 2 or less.

Come to think about it, it should be no preemptive fire, maybe not even for AA-guns. No matter how heavy the bombardment or shelling, someone always survive to shot back

LHoffman

@Narvik:

Good post, LHoffman and + to you.

Thanks man, same to you. I enjoy a good academic conversation.

@Narvik:

For the record, when I say blockhouse, I talk about big coastal guns in casemates, like the Atlantic Wall or the Maginot Line or other strong fortifications, not a simple bunker, pillbox or foxhole that the infantry division dig when they are defending. I figure that barbed wire and trenches are what makes the infantry unit defend on 2 or less.

Okay, I understand. Defining our terms is important. Otherwise we will be eternally confused or at odds. Ultimately the terminology itself is less important than what we intend that it stands for.

@Narvik:

Come to think about it, it should be no preemptive fire, maybe not even for AA-guns. No matter how heavy the bombardment or shelling, someone always survive to shot back

This is true. And yet another unfortunate aspect of combat at this scale. With AA fire for example, say 2 bombers attack Germany in an SBR. One gets shot down by AA. That is a 50% casualty rate. I don’t think any large Allied bomber force ever suffered that kind of attrition, it is ridiculous and unrealistic. However, it is just the way the game works.

I believe preemptive fire has its place, it just needs to be carefully considered or regulated in different situations (AA, bombardment, sub, etc…).

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