LHTR question re: ICs

[4thmac]

I’m Allies, and my opponent has conquered Moscow.  I have multinational forces in Caucusus.  Can the Allies (UK and USA) build in Caucusus?  Here is what I found on Page 18 of LHTR:

You cannot
place your new units at an industrial complex
owned by a friendly power, unless its capital
is in enemy hands. Even if you liberate a
territory with an industrial complex in it,
you cannot use the complex; the original
controller can use it on his or her next turn.

So, is this saying that if I liberate Moscow as US, then Russia can use Caucusus on Russia’s next turn?  I want to make sure I have these 2 questions answered correctly.

Thanks!

[newpaintbrush]

You have multinational Allied forces at Caucasus, and the Axis control Moscow.

I believe:

You cannot produce anything at the Caucasus industrial complex with the Allies.  If the Axis captured Caucasus, and the Allies recaptured Caucasus while Moscow was held by the Axis, whichever Allied power recaptured Caucasus would put a control chip on the board, and would be able to use the Caucasus industrial complex on turn after capture (assuming the territory was held).

If the Allies liberate Moscow, Russia can IMMEDIATELY build units on its turn at Caucasus or at Moscow - theoretically.  Unfortunately, it won’t have any IPCs to build with, because countries don’t collect income while their capital is in enemy hands.

[Amon-Sul]

1st question:

˝If the original controller’s capital is in enemy hands at the end of the turn in which you would otherwise have liberated the territory, you capture the territory, collect income from the newly captured territory and can use any industrial complex there until the original controller’s capital is liberated. You also take ownership of any antiaircraft gun in that territory. ˝

-if i understood this good you can build in Caucaus if the allies(Russia)owned it at the beginning of your either UK or USA turn
-but if Caucaus was in Axis hands at the begining of your turn and you capture it than you can build but not in that same round :-)

2nd question:
Russia can build in Caucaus if it has some money, but not in Moscow; but as newpaintbrush said its only theoretically that Russia can have some money in this situation

[Guest]

The only way you can USE the IC OR get paid for the territory is if you TAKE IT form the enemy.

Otherwise, you are just supporting the Russian Resistance and the territory revenue AND the IC remain under Russian control, and thus cannot be used since Russia has no income.

[4thmac]

Thank you all.

[Jennifer]

Interesting thought:

Germany moves into unoccupied Caucasus with 1 infantry.

England attacks with 1 infantry, 1 bomber and liberates it.

Now where’s Germany?

[Guest]

If they LIBERATED it, Germany is NOT in Caucuses, a UK INF is.

If they only CLEARED it, Germany still controls Caucuses, though it is vacant.

Regardless, Germany is still +4 IPC for owning Caucuses at the end of their turn :-)

[Jennifer]

In that case they are +4 IPC for Caucasus that turn.  However, they are not in an tactical advantage and Russia has suffered no loss for loosing it.

Net:  Russia Tactical Advantage with larger then normal stack in W. Russ.  IPC Gain +2 (WR)
Net:  Germany at no advantage, IPC gain of 4 in Cauc, IPC loss of 2 WR, net 2 IPC gain, tactical disadvantage due to larger then normal stack in WRuss.

[newpaintbrush]

@Jennifer:

In that case they are +4 IPC for Caucasus that turn.  However, they are not in an tactical advantage and Russia has suffered no loss for loosing it.

Net:  Russia Tactical Advantage with larger then normal stack in W. Russ.  IPC Gain +2 (WR)
Net:  Germany at no advantage, IPC gain of 4 in Cauc, IPC loss of 2 WR, net 2 IPC gain, tactical disadvantage due to larger then normal stack in WRuss.

The way I see it, Germany gains +4 IPC from the territory, and +1 IPC from the 1/3 chance of killing a unit with minimum value 3 IPC (one infantry), so net +5 IPC for investment of +3 IPC.  Germany also benefits from tying down the UK bomber for that turn, which is not trivial; a UK bomber can do a lot of damage to valuable naval units.

The Allies gain a tactical advantage from killing a forward placed German infantry, as well as the fact that the UK, not Russia, depleted Germany’s forces, which in turn allows Russia’s forces to mass and therefore be more efficient.

Russia gains nothing by holding West Russia because I believe Russia should hold West Russia until Germany has heavily massed at Ukraine.  That is, Russia should probably be holding West Russia anyways.