AARHE: Phase 3: Income

[tekkyy]

oh I see what you mean

now how routes?

and does UK use Africa, Panama or Med Sea route?

[Guerrilla Guy]

Either they are “pre-approved” on the chart, or written in… Pretty much the start of the convoy is well known (they can be write in as well, give me feedback on that one) And the British can use any Canal that is friendly…

GG

[tekkyy]

so can UK simultaneously use the panama, africa, and suez route?
if so what kind of break down is possible?

kinda difficult but nice if we can come up with a system/format/formula/equation that applies nicely to how convoy SZs are chosen among all players

or if too difficult we have to use a fairly static method and make it for UK and Japan only

[Imperious Leader]

When you guys decide the convoy system post the entire idea as you want it in the rules. I dont have much time to figure it out.

[Guerrilla Guy]

Tekkyy, I think I get what your going at… Basically it must be routed through the shortest route, so if that means through the Pacific, so be it (but I doubt that will be necessary, except maybe with the Australian Convoy)… After you choose the route, either you have a set pattern for the target zones, or you can choose them yourself, provided one of them is adjacent to the End Destination…

Convoys:
Convoys are means of transporting your economy from distant holdings to your home factories. 2 Territories will be considered the Home Territory, where you are routing from; and the Destination Territory, where you are routing too. You may buy a route during your purchase units phase. Routes are through the shortest routes to your factories; this includes Canals, except if they are enemy occupied at the beginning of your turn. After choosing the route secretly, pay 1 IPC per SZ the route travels through. You must also choose 3 SZ’s, called target SZ’s where your convoy can get attacked from. One of them must be adjacent to the Destination Territory. The other 2 are at the discretion of the player. Record them on your shipping log. Your route may now transfer IPC’s from the home territory and all adjacent territories to to the destination territory. The Income is added at your collect income phase by counting up the IPC’s recorded on the appropriate shipping logs.
        The enemy may choose to raid your convoys. Any Naval or Air Unit with an Attack Value may choose to search for your convoys. Use the ASW Search Roll for this action. If he is correct, and finds a convoy, he may preform an attack against it, using his attack values. This lasts for only 1 round. For every hit, you must remove 3 IPC’s from your bank. If the convoy is being guarded by your own naval shipping the enemy must defeat your defending fleet before he can attack.

I want to change the last part to must make a breakthrough roll, but I haven’t figure that out…

GG

[tekkyy]

What do you mean breakthrough roll?
I think we don’t need a search and attack thing. But just one roll.

And I am thinking military units are mostly overkill for convoys.
So I would let destroyer kill convoys just as easy as battleships.
(All naval units except transport, all air units except saturation-bombers)

With the shortest route thing. Do we figure out the shortest route for every territory?

[Guerrilla Guy]

Breakthrough refers to breaching the enemy convoy defense fleet…
OK, I could agree with 1 roll…
Any “Military” Naval units can kill Convoys.
it can be figured out in your head… If you want to do it that way though, we could always have a “cheat sheet” with Income supported in each territory and cost… I would just do it in your head…

GG

[tekkyy]

@Guerrilla:

Any “Military” Naval units can kill Convoys.

Specificially, can Transports hit convoys?
And I am thinking for air units only Naval Fighers/Fighters on Aircraft Carrier.

@Guerrilla:

Income supported in each territory and cost

Income and cost? Is this that thing about buying convoys?
Is that neccessary?

And what about that convoy transportation issue?
Can all sea shore territories send income via sea?
Can convoy go sea-land-sea? I would think sea only or land-sea.

[Guerrilla Guy]

Specificially, can Transports hit convoys?

• No

And I am thinking for air units only Naval Fighers/Fighters on Aircraft Carrier.

• Fighters on land were used in Convoy raiding expeditions. No reason why they should be discluded, except maybe that they can only attack Coastal Zones.

Income and cost? Is this that thing about buying convoys? Is that neccessary?

• Yes! That is why I mentioned it as optional since I thought it would be unnecessary.

And what about that convoy transportation issue?

• That is all on the log, either check off system or number write in. Could you be more specific about what you mean here? I think I know but I can’t be sure.

Can all sea shore territories send income via sea?

• Yes. You write them in and the adjacent territories supported.

Can convoy go sea-land-sea? I would think sea only or land-sea.

• Land sea. too complex other way…

GG

[tekkyy]

yeah ok
I prefer don’t need to buy convoy chips

ok now need to design a sheet/table
one that makes it simple, easy and obvious to the player the shortest routes

and decide when are the dice rolls rolled
during enemy turn
or during your collect income

[Guerrilla Guy]

Yep, no buying convoy chips just routes.

I can give you some ideas, but I have all the rudimentary paint programs so I am not the man that can work it, but basically we will need:

A list form of to-from locations, 3 boxes beside them (for “combat” SZ’s), cost(length), and how much income is supported.

During enemy combat. You can put chips on top of a “roundel” that has the Convoy value on it.

GG

[tekkyy]

during enemy combat?

so attack on convoy is an actual attack?
like if your destroyer took part in raiding convoys it can’t perform other attacks this turn?

I was thinking raiding convoy is a small passive thing
convoys takes its chances and try to go through hostile sea zone

whereas a normal combat move is a big active thing
to make convoy raiding under that category I would let the units raid convoys in the 2-3 sea zones it is moving between/among

[Guerrilla Guy]

Ok, I understand your reasoning there. I think then that it should be a separate action of “engagement”. So movement and raiding is the same turn, or maybe you should have to be in the same SZ in order to raid… Either way, it would still be simple to the point… I hate adding new phases but this one shouldn’t be much…

GG

[tekkyy]

nah don’t need to add a new phase
if you agree with my reasoning
we just make it a small thing that does not take up combat moves

how about just roll the dice in collect income? after revealing your log

[Guerrilla Guy]

OK, but don’t we collect income at the end of our turn? How can you use a fleet to protect a convoy if it isn’t in combat?

GG

[tekkyy]

yeah
if you have a fleet at a convoy box (at collect income phase) you are protecting convoys, protecting a convoy route checkpoint

3 convoy SZ
we could consider changing it to 2
ie. 2 explicitly defined SZ + 2 implicitly defined SZ

(implicitly defined SZs being the start and destination SZs)

shortest path idea
is it strictly shortest path?
or do we let it be shortest +1?

eg. Australia to UK
via Med Sea = 8 SZs
via South Africa = 9 SZs
via Panama = 10 SZs
(and letting Australia ship to UK via Panama might be a bit far stretched)

land then sea transport
what sea port can Kenya use?
and does the restrictions change as Germany takes African territories?

[Guerrilla Guy]

OK, you addressed a lot there!

3 Convoy SZ:
I thought at first of actually making it 4, of course the convoy is only declared as being “started” i.e. Germany gets word of convoys delivering goods in Southampton, Subs are on the prowl to find the destination; Or in simplier terms that mumbo jumbo means that when you buy a convoy all you have to do is say “I am purchasing a convoy”. The enemy may know that you are transporting goods but he doesn’t know from where. So even if we add 4 “combat” SZ’s all of them are still hidden.

Shortest Path:
I made that rule to avoid people from making some wild path that goes around the Cape of South America, giving them the ability to hide a convoy in waters that weren’t even traversed during WW2, or rarely and never by convoys. It was to fulfill the “Historical” claim of this project. But The Mediterraenean even being the shortest route, may not be the one used. Since no Convoys are active at the beginning of the game, it is possible that Anglo Egypt will fall therefore making a Med convoy impossible and if the British want to avoid a convoy route they can’t protect the easiest, they can invest in one after they lose the canal. I said all that to say that I like your idea better 8-) but I had to explain why I went the way I did…

Land then Sea Transport:
Kenya actually may be the best port to choose. If you chose South Africa you can only get 4 IPC’s (Including Madagascar), whereas Kenya can get 6. And no the all rules are in affect even if Africa falls to the Germans. They have to use ports to get supplies back home. Why would they need to change? It adds an element that the Germans didn’t deal with but would have had to.

GG

[tekkyy]

wait a minute
we collect income at the beginning of the turn!
we had this since phase 1

but nothing wrong
you just don’t get to attack convoy SZs in the last minute (because its occupied by hostile units) to protect convoys

planning next turn
by the way UK and Japan player now has to think about its purchasing next turn
UK needs to decide how Australia’s IPCs are used
if some of all are to be used overseas you decide this turn and write in on the convoy sheet

Kenya actually may be the best port to choose. If you chose South Africa you can only get 4 IPC’s (Including Madagascar), whereas Kenya can get

wait I dont get this
is this about a territory can only use its own sea port or adjacent friendly sea port?
so Kenya can’t use West Africa’s sea port?

[Guerrilla Guy]

Actually I meant that we collect income at the beginning (my bad). That will work… 2 Options then are possible regarding attacking the defending naval units: 1, you need to destroy all enemy naval units covering the convoy before you can shoot at the convoy itself, or option 2, convoy covering naval units can only shoot at the enemy (in combat) in hopes you kill enough stuff to make the attack not profitable (always can hit convoys regardless of cover)… If I am not seeing that you have already said this ignore this part, and just correct anything in the rules.

Exactly, write in makes in an interesting and useful addition to the game.

No, the rule I wrote was: “Your route may now transfer IPC’s from the home territory and all adjacent territories to to the destination territory.” Or when you build a convoy route, the starting territory can collect income from its territory and all adjacent territories including adjacent Island territories via adjacent SZ’s. South Africa gets its own income (2), Kenya (1), and Madagascar (adjacent SZ) (1), making a total convoy income of 4 IPC’s. Kenya gets its own (1), Madagascar (1), South Africa (1), IEA (1), and FEA (1), making an income of 6.

GG

[tekkyy]

@Guerrilla:

2 Options then are possible regarding attacking the defending naval units

I’ll probably go for option 1 (must destroy all naval units, or making them retreat, defending a convoy SZ before you can attack convoy)

for option 2
we need a way for the convoy player to reveal that its a convoy SZ when enemy enters
and then enemy gets to choose whether to attack military units or convoys
and we need to think how to fit it into naval combat, which is already complex

No, the rule I wrote was:

but yeah, from my understand it means “Kenya”'s income can’t be transported via “French West Africa”
that ok for Kenya
but for territories with no adjacent sea shore territories it’ll be restrictive

but that too can be ok
it just makes inland territories income can be transported very far by land only, or mainly by sea
but not both a long trip in land and long trip in sea