Taranto vs "defend Malta"

[Narvik]

OMG I didn’t see that comin. That strategy need some more playtesting.

[Frederick II]

I think what British should do in the Med is attack Toburk and the DD and TT that is off of malta and do Taranto.
When it’s Italy’s turn they have lost a great portion of their fleet and their strong point in north africa is eliminated and it’s matter of time before British kicks the italians out of east africa. Also in Taranto for british casualties I would take out the fighter that came from London and the ships so at the end of the battle you should likely have a fighter, tac. bomber, and a strat. bomber at the end and than land them in Malta and now you can destroy what ships the Italians build. Plus it’s likely the left of the Italian fleet is going to attack the french DD and CV that are off Southern France (can’t think whats the number of the seazone) so they can try to gain the NO about no allied ships in the Med. It also would great if the axis scramble in Taranto because then those fighters that italy loses is really hard for them to rebuild them so if that happens then the Italians have barely have a airforce and navy and their strong point in north africa is eliminated like I said before. That’s why I think you should do Taranto because it helps this strategy. Hope that was helpful. :-D

[calvinhobbesliker]

How do you do Taranto and Tobruk at the same time? Are you assuming a bid?

[madscientist]

I just played a game where Germany had landed all their fighters and bombers in Holland at G1, then UK did Taranto and had an AC with 2 planes and a cru left in sz 97 (they rolled well). Germany simply attacked the sz 97 fleet with all their planes and took them out and only lost 1 ftr (Germany rolled well).

[teslas]

@calvinhobbesliker:

How do you do Taranto and Tobruk at the same time? Are you assuming a bid?

1: I never assume bids. Bids are for pansies (this is not an invitation to begin talking about bids).
2: This is from memory, so forgive me if I’m off:

Do the standard Taranto crap like you’d always do it:

DD/CR/CA + tac from off of Egypt -> SZ 97 (lands on malta)
Fighter from Malta -> SZ 97 (lands on malta)
Optionally, 1x Strat bomber from London -> SZ 97 (lands on malta)
Optionally, 1x fighter from London -> SZ 97 (with the intention of landing on the carrier in 97)

This should be able to have favorable odds against SZ 97 with or without a german plane there to scramble. Bringing the fighter puts London in a weaker position against a possible Sea Lion, but if you go 6x inf/1x fighter on UK1 you’re very probably still fine.

Fighter from Gibraltar -> SZ 96 (to land in malta)
Cruiser from off of Gibraltar -> SZ 96

This should be able to kill one destroyer with zero issues.

Move all of your Alexandria forces -> Tobruk
1x Mech from Egypt -> Tobruk
Use your transport off of Egypt to pick up inf/art and land them in Tobruk.

With that, the odds are something like 60% in your favor. Even if you lose, you’ve murdered a lot of Italians. If Germany puts a fighter on Tobruk, then you shouldn’t do this as the odds drop down to something dismal. If you can afford to bring an extra plane into the fight, say because you want to be ballsy with Taranto (because there’s no german plane on S. Italy?), use your tac bomber from your carrier to instead do Tobruk. Your odds shoot up significantly, or it allows you to attack the Tobruk stack even with a German fighter there.

If you want to try to save your shit in SZ 96, you can build an air base on Malta, though this puts London at serious risk. The potential cruiser and transport there usually aren’t worth the risk to London. You’re saving 19 IPCs by spending 15, but risking your capital, and keeping the transport alive isn’t crucial to any britain med tactic I am aware of.

[Frederick II]

@teslas:

@calvinhobbesliker:

How do you do Taranto and Tobruk at the same time? Are you assuming a bid?

1: I never assume bids. Bids are for pansies (this is not an invitation to begin talking about bids).
2: This is from memory, so forgive me if I’m off:

Do the standard Taranto crap like you’d always do it:

DD/CR/CA + tac from off of Egypt -> SZ 97 (lands on malta)
Fighter from Malta -> SZ 97 (lands on malta)
Optionally, 1x Strat bomber from London -> SZ 97 (lands on malta)
Optionally, 1x fighter from London -> SZ 97 (with the intention of landing on the carrier in 97)

This should be able to have favorable odds against SZ 97 with or without a german plane there to scramble. Bringing the fighter puts London in a weaker position against a possible Sea Lion, but if you go 6x inf/1x fighter on UK1 you’re very probably still fine.

Fighter from Gibraltar -> SZ 96 (to land in malta)
Cruiser from off of Gibraltar -> SZ 96

This should be able to kill one destroyer with zero issues.

Move all of your Alexandria forces -> Tobruk
1x Mech from Egypt -> Tobruk
Use your transport off of Egypt to pick up inf/art and land them in Tobruk.

With that, the odds are something like 60% in your favor. Even if you lose, you’ve murdered a lot of Italians. If Germany puts a fighter on Tobruk, then you shouldn’t do this as the odds drop down to something dismal. If you can afford to bring an extra plane into the fight, say because you want to be ballsy with Taranto (because there’s no german plane on S. Italy?), use your tac bomber from your carrier to instead do Tobruk. Your odds shoot up significantly, or it allows you to attack the Tobruk stack even with a German fighter there.

If you want to try to save your ���� in SZ 96, you can build an air base on Malta, though this puts London at serious risk. The potential cruiser and transport there usually aren’t worth the risk to London. You’re saving 19 IPCs by spending 15, but risking your capital, and keeping the transport alive isn’t crucial to any britain med tactic I am aware of.

teslas is right calvinhobbesliker, he said what I was going to say and more.

[innocentbystander]

@TheWell-KnownSoldier:

Well first off there is no airbase on Malta.  :-)

Thanks.  I noticed the base and thought it was for air.  Ooops.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@innocentbystander:

@TheWell-KnownSoldier:

Well first off there is no airbase on Malta.  :-)

Thanks.  I noticed the base and thought it was for air.  Ooops.

Malta doesn’t have an air base either…just an AAA.

[Young Grasshopper]

I always buy 6 infantry and a fighter for London UK1, then I hit Taranto and worry about Sealion when it comes.

[csaw]

I know a common alternative to Taranto is to defend sz 92 instead of Malta. The safe buy for England would be 1 AB and the rest inf. The AB would go in Gibraltar and the inf in London.  The idea is that you kill the Italian transport off of Malta with planes and then park all of your navy that can reach in sz 92 along with three fighters in Gib.  This will give you enough defense to keep the Italians from being able to destroy your ships alone as well as all but eliminate any threat of sea lion.

There are a couple of things that you need to consider in doing this though.  One is that any German planes in Western Germany can hit sz 92 if the Italians take Morroco or Algeria.  The axis could also strafe you with Italy and then finish you off with the German air.  Also if Germany bought any trans on T1 and placed them in sz 112 right off of W. Germany you need to watch out for an amphibious assault from the Germans on T2 since you most likely wont have much for land units in Gib.  This can be prevented with a easily with a blocker.

I personally always do Taranto but I also usually wont play any sort of serious opponent with out at least a bid of 9-12 towards the allies.  This will give me better odds for both Tobruk and Taranto.

[Munck]

csaw,

How are your English fleet in the Med supposed to reach SZ92 in turn 1 when there are Italian blockers in SZ 96?

The way I see it you’re giving the Italians a shot at you navy with everything they’ve got including 3 planes + they can even get 4 ground troops into the Middle East.

Am I missing something? :?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Munck:

csaw,

How are your English fleet in the Med supposed to reach SZ92 in turn 1 when there are Italian blockers in SZ 96?

The way I see it you’re giving the Italians a shot at you navy with everything they’ve got including 3 planes + they can even get 4 ground troops into the Middle East.

Am I missing something? :?

You can kill the blockers in combat and move the fleet in noncombat.

[aequitas-et-veritas]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Munck:

csaw,

How are your English fleet in the Med supposed to reach SZ92 in turn 1 when there are Italian blockers in SZ 96?

The way I see it you’re giving the Italians a shot at you navy with everything they’ve got including 3 planes + they can even get 4 ground troops into the Middle East.

Am I missing something? :?

You can kill the blockers in combat and move the fleet in noncombat.

And italy has to choose one of these three options

1. Try to go all out on UK fleet and try to sink them?

• less NO options and French Fleet still intact.
  2. Kill French fleet only and putting own fleet in danger?
• less NO option. UK fleet still intact.
  3. Going for egypt.
  -NO option. Own fleet in danger

The worst case scenario for UK is here that it will loose its fleet, but italys navy will be gone too. Destroyed by RAF.
Itlay will start with lesser NO and slim chance to get the upper hand by navy in the Meds.

It sounds more reasonable for UK player to play it like that but the downside to it is that it will be still a gamble for Egypt.
If axis manage to get a hold of it, uk will be to weak to get it back.

This is not a fact but my experience with this strategy.

[Munck]

@calvinhobbesliker:

You can kill the blockers in combat and move the fleet in noncombat.

Thanks for clarifying. I haven’t thought about that.

[innocentbystander]

I am only 3 games of A&A Global 1940 “old.”  That is a terribly small sample size but in those three games (no bids) I have seen Allies 2, Axis 1.  In the two games I have seen the Allies win, BOTH GAMES they defended Malta.  In the one game I have seen the Axis win (and they won it in a rout) UK went for Taranto.  Again, small sample size, 3 games old.

In the Taranto raid, The UK won (barely), sunk the BB and shot down 3 fighters (1 German) that were never replaced by Italy.  They survived with 1 AC and 1 fighter on it, lost the strat bomber.  Italians ignored the carrier on their turn, went after Alexandria (got it), sunk the French fleet with bomber and sub (lost sub), took Southern France, sunk the UK cruiser (sent from 91) in Malta with their own cruiser and destroyer (lost dd), and reinforced Tobruk with two more land units.  Then they placed another transport in 95 and an inf in Rome.  Collected money.  Ger-2, they mopped up the UK carrier, landed 3 fighters in Rome for scramble (and never even bothered to try Sea lion) and started cranking infs and artillery for Russia invasion.  By Italy-2, they had complete control of the Med and were getting bonuses.  By Italy 4 they had Egypt.  Axis went on to win.

In the two Allied victories, The Italians sent EVERYTHING they had at the malta fleet of UK Carrier, 2 fighters, 2 cruisers 1 dd, and 1 transport.

First game, they retreated after one round losing ONLY 2 empty Italian transports and the sub, but destroyed the UK transport, dd, and carrier (planes landed safely in malta.)  Built transport.  France moved their two ships to 92.  UK-2, finished Italians in Libya (had total control of Africa), UK moved their two cruisers to 92, flew bother fighters and tac bomber in Malta to Gibraltar, build airbase in Gibraltar and just “sat there” for the next 2 turns.  Italy never tried to attack it (never enough ships and planes.)  Germany was never in position with the Luftwaffe to attack it until Ger-4, and by then, the US was getting ready to move to the Med.  Italy never got any objective bonuses, Egypt never fell (always had far too many pieces), and the Middle East was never threatened.  Italy finished the game with an intact BB in defeat.

Second game the Italians stayed and wiped out Malta fleet entirely, Italy left with just 1 cruiser and 1 damaged BB in 96.  Two fighters and bomb flew back to Rome.  France moved ships to 91. UK-2, Strat bomber and Tac Bomber in Malta sacrificed themselves to finish the limp Italian fleet (all UK and Italian ships and UK planes destroyed in med), captured Libya (had total control of Africa) but on Italy-2 they started getting bonuses of no allied ships in Med.  Big whoop?  That was the majority of their income, It was Italy 3 before they even tried for Syria.  Game was over on US-5.

I think I need to play more.  So far all I’ve seen is even if UK wins Taranto, they still lose the war.

[drummerinheat]

@innocentbystander:

In the two Allied victories, The Italians sent EVERYTHING they had at the malta fleet of UK Carrier, 2 fighters, 2 cruisers 1 dd, and 1 transport.

First game, they retreated after one round losing ONLY 2 empty Italian transports and the sub, but destroyed the UK transport, dd, and carrier (planes landed safely in malta.)  Built transport.  France moved their two ships to 92.  UK-2, finished Italians in Libya (had total control of Africa), UK moved their two cruisers to 92, flew bother fighters and tac bomber in Malta to Gibraltar, build airbase in Gibraltar and just “sat there” for the next 2 turns.  Italy never tried to attack it (never enough ships and planes.)  Germany was never in position with the Luftwaffe to attack it until Ger-4, and by then, the US was getting ready to move to the Med.  Italy never got any objective bonuses, Egypt never fell (always had far too many pieces), and the Middle East was never threatened.  Italy finished the game with an intact BB in defeat.

Transports cannot be taken as battle casualties before other units, filled or empty.  They are the last casualty selection of battle.  It seems, based on your sample size, that defend is a workable strategy.  The only difference is the Taranto raid sort of forces Germany to send air turn 2.  All of this helps side track Germany a bit which is a good thing for the allies.

[innocentbystander]

@drummerinheat:

@innocentbystander:

In the two Allied victories, The Italians sent EVERYTHING they had at the malta fleet of UK Carrier, 2 fighters, 2 cruisers 1 dd, and 1 transport.Â

First game, they retreated after one round losing ONLY 2 empty Italian transports and the sub, but destroyed the UK transport, dd, and carrier (planes landed safely in malta.)  Built transport.  France moved their two ships to 92.  UK-2, finished Italians in Libya (had total control of Africa), UK moved their two cruisers to 92, flew bother fighters and tac bomber in Malta to Gibraltar, build airbase in Gibraltar and just “sat there” for the next 2 turns.  Italy never tried to attack it (never enough ships and planes.)  Germany was never in position with the Luftwaffe to attack it until Ger-4, and by then, the US was getting ready to move to the Med.  Italy never got any objective bonuses, Egypt never fell (always had far too many pieces), and the Middle East was never threatened.  Italy finished the game with an intact BB in defeat.

Transports cannot be taken as battle casualties before other units, filled or empty.  They are the last casualty selection of battle.  It seems, based on your sample size, that defend is a workable strategy.  The only difference is the Taranto raid sort of forces Germany to send air turn 2.  All of this helps side track Germany a bit which is a good thing for the allies.

Boy do we not know the rules then.  Are there any other “casualty selections” that are forced in A&A Global that are outside our control?

[barney]

planes can’t be hit by subs, but I’m sure you already knew that :)

It’s hard to win with the allies

[innocentbystander]

@barney:

planes can’t be hit by subs, but I’m sure you already knew that :)

It’s hard to win with the allies

but can subs still be hit by planes?

[barney]

if a destroyer is attacking also