Taranto vs "defend Malta"

[innocentbystander]

Maybe its because I haven’t played nearly enough and I’m missing something so totally obvious, but I just don’t understand why you need to do Taranto?  I think the British player has absolutely everything to lose and almost nothing to gain by going after Italy’s isolated capital ship.  Seriously, if Italy scrambles (the German fighter as well) and both sides roll “par” the British player will lose the transport, the cruiser, the destroyer, and strategic bomber, and the carrier will be left there (mighty lonely) with a couple spitfires on it.  The 3 Italian ships to the West ignore the carrier and wipe out the French with the bomber, and the transport drops off more troops into Africa, and the forces in Tobruk pop Alexandria.  On German 2, the Luffwaffe has nothing better to do but obliterate the lonely carrier (while they are prepping for Sea Lion on Ger-3) and now the Italians are in complete control of the Med without so much as building a ship.  And I think (at this point) the Allies are now fighting from behind.  The Axis is in a position of advantage and that was with a successful Taranto raid (forget it if the roll bad.)

My question is, if you are the British player, why on Earth do you do this?

I agree totally with Grasshopper, build 6 inf and 1 fighter all for London.  Hunker down in London.  Okay, so what do you do in the Med?

1 Egypt artilery & inf to Tobruk via transport.  malta fighter to Tobruk, land on carrier

2 inf & artilery & tank from Alexendria to Tobruk.  1 mech in Egypt to Tobruk.  1 Tac bomber from carrier to Tobruk, land on Malta for scramble.  You should pop Tobruk like a zit.

1 cruiser in 91, 1 fighter in Giblatar land on carrier, 1 bomber from London (land on Malta), 1 carrier, 1 transport, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer from sz98, attack Italian fleet in Malta.  If the destroyer hits lose the strategic bomber.

Fly on fighter from London to Giblatar.  Move fighter from Scotland to London.

Now, look at the board.  You have 1 transport, 1 destroyer, 2 cruisers, 1 carrier with 2 fighters and 1 tac bomber on Malta for scramble in defense.  If the Italians attack, they must send… EVERYTHING.  You have far too many good dice in defense.  And even if they win, the victory is entirely pyrrhic.  They will have a hit on the battle ship and at most one cruise left and probably lose their planes.  Their navy is completely gone next turn, they get no troops to Africa, and you have complete control of Africa.

Am I missing something?

[TheUnknownSoldier]

Well first off there is no airbase on Malta.  :-)

[TheUnknownSoldier]

Secondly it is not the job of the Italian fleet to sink or scare away the British fleet in the Med. The Luftwaffe will still perform that task. So you got ac, dd, 2 cc and 2 fig in sz96? Even if Germany lost 2 fig & 2 tac their remaining 3 fig, 3 tac and 2 bmb will still sink the British fleet. Now Italy have a much easier time dominating the Med with the extra cc, bb and trn. Time to wave goodbye to Egypt and the Middle-East?

[Chris_Henry]

I have to agree with TheWell-KnownSoldier here. Even if your scenario is played out, the German air force can finish the job, leaving an Italian navy in the Med that is still formidable.

Put into a bigger perspective, remember Italy only makes 10 IPC’s to start with. Losing those ships in Taranto is a blow that they can’t easily replace. Even bigger perspective, that means that many less ships in the Med whenever the Americans come.

[Narvik]

FLEET-IN-BEING
There is of course the Defensive Fleet-in-being strategy, strafe the Italian fleet in sz 96 with planes, sail all ships to the safe sz 81, even evacuate the inf and AAgun from Malta to Egypt, and stack as many units as possible in Egypt. Now set up to reinforce Egypt from your factories in UK, South Africa and India. But of course, priority nr. one must be to secure UK from a possible Sea Lion. Very boring strategy with less action, but it can pay off in the long run

[teslas]

@innocentbystander:

absolutely everything to lose and almost nothing to gain by going after Italy’s isolated capital ship.

You kill the capital ship, which Italy can never replace, ever. Nearly as crucial, however, is killing the transport. If you do Taranto as well as kill the dest/TT off of Malta, Italy’s ability to project its power throughout the med is stunted horribly. It’s the package deal that you get to kill most of Italy’s navy that is the draw, not just the battleship.

@innocentbystander:

the British player will lose the transport

You don’t send the transport to Taranto. That does something else useful, like killing Italians in sub-saharan Africa, or taking Iraq, or even killing the Tobruk Italians if you’re feeling feisty and Germany didn’t land a fighter there to save them.

Italy cannot afford to quickly rebuild its navy, and this buys you time. Lots of time. The British navy, however, is somewhat less crucial. You can use it to rob Italy of its 5 IPC bonus/turn, sure, or you could join it with your tiny Pacific fleet for something pretty respectable, but all in all stopping Italy’s ability to threaten Egypt without heavy German aid, stopping its ability to dump a lot of troops into Syria to get a quick Iraq, or to stop them from holding Gibraltar far outweighs the loss of the UK Pac fleet… for most players.

Not doing Taranto is valid, sure, but Taranto is kind of a safe, calculated play. It removes variables that the Allies need to consider when trying to crack the Europe nut.

As far as what you’re missing, others above and possibly more below will tell you why the Malta gambit might not be as good as you think.

[Narvik]

All good points, T.

But, another way could be for UK to prepare for a Turn 3 slaughter of the Italian navy. Sink the ships in sz 96 and take Tobruk in T1, and move all ships in safety to sz 81. Build 3 Subs in South Africa T1 and 3 Bombers in UK T2, and stage them for a T3 attack. I don’t think the Italians can stand against this. And, take surface ships as casualties, let the Subs survive and the Luftwaffe that is based in Germany cant do anything. Buy more planes for the next turn attacks, and with the surviving Subs Italy will be in trouble for sure

[calvinhobbesliker]

If you just buy 3 bombers in London, Germany can probably do Sealion without losing ground to Russia.

[Narvik]

OMG I didn’t see that comin. That strategy need some more playtesting.

[Frederick II]

I think what British should do in the Med is attack Toburk and the DD and TT that is off of malta and do Taranto.
When it’s Italy’s turn they have lost a great portion of their fleet and their strong point in north africa is eliminated and it’s matter of time before British kicks the italians out of east africa. Also in Taranto for british casualties I would take out the fighter that came from London and the ships so at the end of the battle you should likely have a fighter, tac. bomber, and a strat. bomber at the end and than land them in Malta and now you can destroy what ships the Italians build. Plus it’s likely the left of the Italian fleet is going to attack the french DD and CV that are off Southern France (can’t think whats the number of the seazone) so they can try to gain the NO about no allied ships in the Med. It also would great if the axis scramble in Taranto because then those fighters that italy loses is really hard for them to rebuild them so if that happens then the Italians have barely have a airforce and navy and their strong point in north africa is eliminated like I said before. That’s why I think you should do Taranto because it helps this strategy. Hope that was helpful. :-D

[calvinhobbesliker]

How do you do Taranto and Tobruk at the same time? Are you assuming a bid?

[madscientist]

I just played a game where Germany had landed all their fighters and bombers in Holland at G1, then UK did Taranto and had an AC with 2 planes and a cru left in sz 97 (they rolled well). Germany simply attacked the sz 97 fleet with all their planes and took them out and only lost 1 ftr (Germany rolled well).

[teslas]

@calvinhobbesliker:

How do you do Taranto and Tobruk at the same time? Are you assuming a bid?

1: I never assume bids. Bids are for pansies (this is not an invitation to begin talking about bids).
2: This is from memory, so forgive me if I’m off:

Do the standard Taranto crap like you’d always do it:

DD/CR/CA + tac from off of Egypt -> SZ 97 (lands on malta)
Fighter from Malta -> SZ 97 (lands on malta)
Optionally, 1x Strat bomber from London -> SZ 97 (lands on malta)
Optionally, 1x fighter from London -> SZ 97 (with the intention of landing on the carrier in 97)

This should be able to have favorable odds against SZ 97 with or without a german plane there to scramble. Bringing the fighter puts London in a weaker position against a possible Sea Lion, but if you go 6x inf/1x fighter on UK1 you’re very probably still fine.

Fighter from Gibraltar -> SZ 96 (to land in malta)
Cruiser from off of Gibraltar -> SZ 96

This should be able to kill one destroyer with zero issues.

Move all of your Alexandria forces -> Tobruk
1x Mech from Egypt -> Tobruk
Use your transport off of Egypt to pick up inf/art and land them in Tobruk.

With that, the odds are something like 60% in your favor. Even if you lose, you’ve murdered a lot of Italians. If Germany puts a fighter on Tobruk, then you shouldn’t do this as the odds drop down to something dismal. If you can afford to bring an extra plane into the fight, say because you want to be ballsy with Taranto (because there’s no german plane on S. Italy?), use your tac bomber from your carrier to instead do Tobruk. Your odds shoot up significantly, or it allows you to attack the Tobruk stack even with a German fighter there.

If you want to try to save your shit in SZ 96, you can build an air base on Malta, though this puts London at serious risk. The potential cruiser and transport there usually aren’t worth the risk to London. You’re saving 19 IPCs by spending 15, but risking your capital, and keeping the transport alive isn’t crucial to any britain med tactic I am aware of.

[Frederick II]

@teslas:

@calvinhobbesliker:

How do you do Taranto and Tobruk at the same time? Are you assuming a bid?

1: I never assume bids. Bids are for pansies (this is not an invitation to begin talking about bids).
2: This is from memory, so forgive me if I’m off:

Do the standard Taranto crap like you’d always do it:

DD/CR/CA + tac from off of Egypt -> SZ 97 (lands on malta)
Fighter from Malta -> SZ 97 (lands on malta)
Optionally, 1x Strat bomber from London -> SZ 97 (lands on malta)
Optionally, 1x fighter from London -> SZ 97 (with the intention of landing on the carrier in 97)

This should be able to have favorable odds against SZ 97 with or without a german plane there to scramble. Bringing the fighter puts London in a weaker position against a possible Sea Lion, but if you go 6x inf/1x fighter on UK1 you’re very probably still fine.

Fighter from Gibraltar -> SZ 96 (to land in malta)
Cruiser from off of Gibraltar -> SZ 96

This should be able to kill one destroyer with zero issues.

Move all of your Alexandria forces -> Tobruk
1x Mech from Egypt -> Tobruk
Use your transport off of Egypt to pick up inf/art and land them in Tobruk.

With that, the odds are something like 60% in your favor. Even if you lose, you’ve murdered a lot of Italians. If Germany puts a fighter on Tobruk, then you shouldn’t do this as the odds drop down to something dismal. If you can afford to bring an extra plane into the fight, say because you want to be ballsy with Taranto (because there’s no german plane on S. Italy?), use your tac bomber from your carrier to instead do Tobruk. Your odds shoot up significantly, or it allows you to attack the Tobruk stack even with a German fighter there.

If you want to try to save your ���� in SZ 96, you can build an air base on Malta, though this puts London at serious risk. The potential cruiser and transport there usually aren’t worth the risk to London. You’re saving 19 IPCs by spending 15, but risking your capital, and keeping the transport alive isn’t crucial to any britain med tactic I am aware of.

teslas is right calvinhobbesliker, he said what I was going to say and more.

[innocentbystander]

@TheWell-KnownSoldier:

Well first off there is no airbase on Malta.  :-)

Thanks.  I noticed the base and thought it was for air.  Ooops.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@innocentbystander:

@TheWell-KnownSoldier:

Well first off there is no airbase on Malta.  :-)

Thanks.  I noticed the base and thought it was for air.  Ooops.

Malta doesn’t have an air base either…just an AAA.

[Young Grasshopper]

I always buy 6 infantry and a fighter for London UK1, then I hit Taranto and worry about Sealion when it comes.

[csaw]

I know a common alternative to Taranto is to defend sz 92 instead of Malta. The safe buy for England would be 1 AB and the rest inf. The AB would go in Gibraltar and the inf in London.  The idea is that you kill the Italian transport off of Malta with planes and then park all of your navy that can reach in sz 92 along with three fighters in Gib.  This will give you enough defense to keep the Italians from being able to destroy your ships alone as well as all but eliminate any threat of sea lion.

There are a couple of things that you need to consider in doing this though.  One is that any German planes in Western Germany can hit sz 92 if the Italians take Morroco or Algeria.  The axis could also strafe you with Italy and then finish you off with the German air.  Also if Germany bought any trans on T1 and placed them in sz 112 right off of W. Germany you need to watch out for an amphibious assault from the Germans on T2 since you most likely wont have much for land units in Gib.  This can be prevented with a easily with a blocker.

I personally always do Taranto but I also usually wont play any sort of serious opponent with out at least a bid of 9-12 towards the allies.  This will give me better odds for both Tobruk and Taranto.

[Munck]

csaw,

How are your English fleet in the Med supposed to reach SZ92 in turn 1 when there are Italian blockers in SZ 96?

The way I see it you’re giving the Italians a shot at you navy with everything they’ve got including 3 planes + they can even get 4 ground troops into the Middle East.

Am I missing something? :?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Munck:

csaw,

How are your English fleet in the Med supposed to reach SZ92 in turn 1 when there are Italian blockers in SZ 96?

The way I see it you’re giving the Italians a shot at you navy with everything they’ve got including 3 planes + they can even get 4 ground troops into the Middle East.

Am I missing something? :?

You can kill the blockers in combat and move the fleet in noncombat.