Fast answers? Same day service isn’t fast enough? I can’t stay on-line 24/7. I do have a life, ya know! :wink:
German Factory Placement
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Mmm . . . well, it really isn’t a topic that can be covered in one or two short posts, although I did mention how I thought the mechanics would work out (I’ve tried it myself, but without the W. Eur IC).
I would think, though, that the Allies should be able to force Germany to commit either to the Mediterranean or the Baltic (the German fleet doesn’t actually have to be IN the Med or the Baltic, but the German player will play differently depending on if Africa or a push through Archangel is the focus.
If Germany concentrates on Africa with a unified fleet, it gets Africa and security for Western Europe, but trades off most of the eastern front and allows the Allies to attack Norway/Karelia/E. Europe or fortify into Archangel.
If Germany goes into the Mediterranean to help attack Caucasus, Western Europe is put at risk.
If Germany concentrates on the Baltic, it gets security for Western Europe, but is vulnerable to a major landing at Algeria that threatens S. Europe the next turn.
Both scenarios are vulnerable to Allied air/naval buildup.
Germany’s threat of 5 transports at Western Europe on G2 is pretty good, but the Allies SHOULD be able to defend; it’s an attack that can be seen coming after the G1 naval moves and IC build.
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Don’t hink short term. Think long term.
Forget massed TRNs (they only need a few). Think AC’s for Germany… AC’s that can be dropped with an existing fleet that is in the Atlantic, not caged in the Baltic of Med.
Africa is cut off for quite a while. Allies can make ONE landing there before their fleet is sunk. Germany retreats to SZ7 or 6 and rebuilds.
Northern Europe is cut off. UK sends fleet to SZ3 or 4, Germany kills it, then back to Western to reinforce what is left.Britian basically can’t build navy AT ALL early on. Even SZ2 is within range of teh German fleet and Air. They can build FIGs and BOM, but for Navy, they have to accumulate enough cash to do a massive drop all at once. And the US has to build up for several turns before THEY can move.
So Germany is left with just Russia. And I mean JUST Russia, because the Allies can;t touch Germany without losing their fleets and taking even LONGER to get to Europe.
Germany starts out with a major advantage in offensive units. After G1, Germany is building about 2/3 land, 1/3 naval. That puts them even with Russia in terms of INF. But with the ARM advantage Germany can, if played well, leverage thsoe ARM into solid gains against Russia.
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TripleA much? Why not see how it works out, is what I say.
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I am sure I will test it sometime in the not too distant future.
Just can;t pre-declare it. Need R1 to go off “as normal” :-)
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@ncscswitch:
I am sure I will test it sometime in the not too distant future.
Just can;t pre-declare it. Need R1 to go off “as normal” :-)
Funny, that’s how I feal about American Pac Strat. :)
Seriously though, I don’t think Germany can pull it off. You’d most assuredly loose the entire Med Fleet with your positions, Switch, I’d see to it knowing exactly what you plan to do with that solitary battleship. Meanwhile, if you don’t do it that way and move the Transport and shut off Gibraltar, I’d still know what you are doing and set up to take out your fleet that way with a 1/2 punch from England/America and maybe a follow up with a Russian sub if you happened to have anything left standing.
I just don’t see it being fiscally possible, strategically possible or realistically possible given the strategies today.
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Only Playtesting will ever tell :-o
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Yea, it will. I honestly don’t see how Japan can both keep America at bay and move into Russia. Russia is too vast in Revised. And if America moves fast enough, Japan’ll loose out trying to do a land grab in Asia before committing in the sea.
Same things with the German factory in W. Europe. You built an AC on G1. A factory on G2. On G3 you have nothing to fight back against the Russians with. On G4 you have no fleet due to RAF/R.Navy, Army Air Corps/US Navy and now you have to protect Germany, Western and Southern from invasions, thus limiting your ability to jostle back and force from Western to Eastern and back building up a large stack of men to feed into the furnace on a push to Moscow.
In other words, I think the IC gives you nothing back and ties you down too much. You cannot allow America or England to take and hold it for a turn, which means you have to defend it or committ to retaking it after every landing.
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If America goes KJF in this situation, then a Candian Shield variant opens up for Germany.
And it si real darn tough to build ships to send after Japan as the US when you have German INF, ART, and ARM pounding at Washington.
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I definently think it is possible because you only need to match Russia and they can’t break your line and if US is going after Japan then UK will definently have to save up for about 3 turns to build an effective navy which gives Germany some more time to build up assuming 1/3 income goes to Navy so I think it would be a realy fun game!
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@ncscswitch:
Only Playtesting will ever tell :-o
I’ve had that idea a year ago and played it twice. It was pretty funny, but I was too inexperimented to fully explore the possibilities as Germany.
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I tried doing a German Navy strat by playing all 5 powers on TripleA and the dice always seem to be bad for me on there but basically what happened was pretty early on America could out produce Germany in Navy and was ready to take the Kriegsmarine out pretty quick
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It comes down to the other element of the strat…
Germany ahs to ALSO get forces into Africa. They ahve to take those IPCs from UK as quickly as possible, while also forcing UK to biuld expensive naval units. IPC losses early will cripple UK’s navy, and the Kreigsmarine/Luftwaffe take out the navy, the remnants reinfroce to hold the Americans back another round or 2, and UK is left with needing to build both TRNs and land units with an income under 20. THAT takes a while.
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@ncscswitch:
If America goes KJF in this situation, then a Candian Shield variant opens up for Germany.
And it si real darn tough to build ships to send after Japan as the US when you have German INF, ART, and ARM pounding at Washington.
I think I didn’t explain myself well. I meant that just as the American Pac Strat cannot be proven until a game that no one suspects it happening occurs, likewise you cannot test this one until the same circumstances occur.
I wasn’t saying that America should do a Pac Strat if Germany builds an IC in France. Actually, Brition should make all effort to get that IC and let America reinforce them heavily with fighters, armor and infantry to prevent a recapture and then use that IC to build massive forces to attack Germany forcing them to either sacrifice more men and equipment holding it, or retaking it, then they would normally need to do when offering to trade the land.
Here’s what I see happening:
G1 Aircraft Carrier, move BB to SZ 13
UK1: 3 Fighters, 2 Fighters, 1 bomber attack SZ 13 (most probably case BB gets to hits and is sunk), BB returns to England
USA1: 2 DD, 4 TRN in SZ 10 (2 tran purchased)G2: SZ 5 fleet moves to SZ 7 or 6, build IC in W. Europe
UK2: BB, 2 TRN, 3 FIG, 1 BMB attack Germany Fleet, worst most likely case England left with a damanged Battleship, German fleet sunk
USA2: Move to Sea Zone 8, unload in England 4 full transports, build 1 transport, and move BB/Trn from Panema up to E. USAThe only way to stop that is to invade Gibraltar in which case England cannot legally bring her fighters to SZ 13 (since there’s no where for them to land). 1 BB, 1 TRN vs 1 BMB is a loosing proposition for the bomber.
If you do that, you might have a chance of a unification in SZ 7, but you’re still going to get slammed by 5 Fighters, 1 Bomber, 1 Battleship, 2 Transports on UK 2 which is a 58% chance of reducing you to a damaged Battleship. Add a second strike by America with a fighter and a bomber and you loose that battleship before you can build more fleet.
As I mentioned, I really, REALLY don’t see you pulling this off. Sure, if you can manage to decieve the allies and get your fleet unified in SZ 7 with an IC in W. Europe you can start putting a sub +/- a transport or a destroyer in the water every so often to annoy them. Maybe even a second carrier and 2 more fighters. But don’t try it against me, your fleet will be rusting before you even get the paint dry.
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Here’s what I see happening:
G1 Aircraft Carrier, move BB to SZ 13
UK1: 3 Fighters, 2 Fighters, 1 bomber attack SZ 13 (most probably case BB gets to hits and is sunk), BB returns to England
USA1: 2 DD, 4 TRN in SZ 10 (2 tran purchased)G2: SZ 5 fleet moves to SZ 7 or 6, build IC in W. Europe
UK2: BB, 2 TRN, 3 FIG, 1 BMB attack Germany Fleet, worst most likely case England left with a damanged Battleship, German fleet sunk
USA2: Move to Sea Zone 8, unload in England 4 full transports, build 1 transport, and move BB/Trn from Panema up to E. USAIf you do that, you might have a chance of a unification in SZ 7, but you’re still going to get slammed by 5 Fighters, 1 Bomber, 1 Battleship, 2 Transports on UK 2 which is a 58% chance of reducing you to a damaged Battleship. Add a second strike by America with a fighter and a bomber and you loose that battleship before you can build more fleet.
As I mentioned, I really, REALLY don’t see you pulling this off. Sure, if you can manage to decieve the allies and get your fleet unified in SZ 7 with an IC in W. Europe you can start putting a sub +/- a transport or a destroyer in the water every so often to annoy them. Maybe even a second carrier and 2 more fighters. But don’t try it against me, your fleet will be rusting before you even get the paint dry.
Yeah, if it was pulled off like that,. But -
1. I think it was actually a G1 IC allowing immediate reinforcement of the W. Europe fleet on G2. As far as I could tell, that was the whole point of a W. Europe IC.
2. It isn’t UK bomber 2 fighters vs lone battleship. Every time, it should be German sub from Atlantic, German battleship and transport from Med at Gibraltar. Germany attacks with a few fighters, and kills the UK battleship with no losses in most cases. But notice that a German bid is essential because you can’t really leave Anglo-Egypt alone without paying a heavy price. So this pretty much ASSUMES a German African bid that lets Germany hit; should be at least 2 units placed to hit Anglo G1. So you have 3 inf 1 tank 1-2 fig 1 bom vs Anglo, you take Gibraltar with probably no losses, and ignore the UK destroyer, so it’s battleship, transport, sub against UK destroyer and bomber.
Everything else depends on those initial assumptions. Change them, and you change the analysis.
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You are correct, it IS a G1 IC purchase.
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adding a factory for germany is a must!where to put that factory depends on how you play.if you want to pressure the USA and UK deploy in west Europe. if you want to reinforce the USSR deploy near the front.if you want to link up with japan deploy in Egypt or India. most of the time your own attacks will show were to deploy. :wink:
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adding a factory for germany is a must!where to put that factory depends on how you play.if you want to pressure the USA and UK deploy in west Europe. if you want to reinforce the USSR deploy near the front.if you want to link up with japan deploy in Egypt or India. most of the time your own attacks will show were to deploy. :wink:
i would like to see one of your games
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Oh m’goodness, it’s worse then I thought!
Now you’re spending 31 IPCs out of 40 on your fleet on G1???
16 for the carrier, 15 for the IC.
And, let’s pretend you did BB/SS + 3 fighters (you said a few, so that’s usually representative of 3). Remember, Switch wants his transport to go to Egypt, so that isn’t present.
1 BB, 1 SS vs 2 Fighters, 1 Bomber:
10 vs 4 (2 Hits R1, 1 Def Hit R1)
7 vs 4 (1 Hit on R2, 1 Def Hit R2)Germany SZ 13 fleet sunk, 1 bomber lands in England. 3 New Fighters added to pool.
UK2:
you have 3 fighters, 1 battleship, 1 bomber, 2 transports a russian submarine and an American destroyer and 2 transports at least confronting the AC, TRN, SS, SS, DD, 2 FIG that is moving out of SZ 5 this round (out of attack range of the Allied fleet.)
I see this as a death to the northern fleet still. And a free IC for the allies on R3 or R4 of game play.
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But you’re assuming the Germans won’t buy EVEN MORE navy at W. Europe, which is, IMHO, the point of the Western IC.
Gets awful expensive for Germany, though. Still, constant reinforcement from W. Europe, the usual Allied air raid doesn’t work anymore. (Usually if the German fleet stays at W. Europe, it can’t stay there because the Allied fleet is building up. But the German fleet also can’t be reinforced because any new Baltic navy can be hit by US and UK fighters from London. So the W. Europe fleet has to retreat to the Baltic or Mediterranean to add to their fleet.)
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In a Russian fighters at Moscow game, 2 Baltic transports cost 1 IPC more, make the Mediterranean fleet more difficult to attack from air, and move 4 units into Ukraine from S. Europe each turn. In a Russian fighters at Caucasus game, MAYBE a German IC at Ukraine
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But any purchase of navy with Germany, short of another AC to land 2 more fighters on, is just money being sent to the bottom of the ocean.
Great, so you have 1 DD, 2 AC, 4 Fig, 1 Trn, 2 SS. Yay! Meanwhile, Russia has all of eastern europe and is directly threatening both Germany and Southern Europe because you have nothing to send after them to stop them.
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