How many ships do purchase as Germany in a typical game?

[Jennifer]

NCSC, I had atrocious rolls.  I should have come out of that battle with a damaged BB and a Carrier, I came out of it with nothing.

Squire:  If your BB/TRN from Med are in range of UK’s fleet in SZ8, USA should block with a Transport.  That prevents you from attacking the British fleet effectively.

Also, I usually see games where some of the German Airforce are out of position and cannot make the attack in SZ8 due to fuel limitations.  This is normally because the German player wants to secure his land holdings near Russia and has chosen to use his air force to help enforce his claims.

Also, bear in mind, that US Fleet is with the UK Fleet.  That’s (on G2) 1 AC, 1 BB, 1 DD, 4 or 5 TRN (depending on the need to block the Med fleet from joining the battle), 2 FIG and 1 Russian Submarine vs at most, 6 fighters, 1 bomber, 1 AC, 2 Subs and 1 Tran.  That should be an easy victory for the Allies with minimal if any losses.  Meanwhile, a British attack on that fleet should, as I mentioned above, result in the United Kingdom keeping both her capital warships, maybe even a fighter if the dice arn’t too biased. (I always get biased dice, DAAK hates me…I must have insulted the founder’s mom in a past life or something, I dunno…)

Long story short, if Germany buys a Carrier it will end up on the bottom of the ocean and cause minimal, if any, delay in allied assaults.  Even if, by some miracle, the German fleet manages to sink the British fleet, the American fleet will finish the now severely weakened German fleet before it can be reinforced.  (BTW, you don’t need to kill the luftwaffe there, that’s senseless combat.)  And, say by some second miracle one of your ships manages to survive that, you have a Russian sub to contend with before you can even attempt to break through the Med to help out, or land new planes on your carrier.

In that case, you’ve delayed the allies 1 turn.  (As in one full turn of combat on European soil has been post-poned.)  They’ll just start on round two and now you have to either spend an entire paycheck on building a new navy, or build forces to take and hold Asia, if possible.

Unless I’m missing something.  Because even by my very skewed tactical assessments, that’s how it always comes out.  (I figure LL - 20% for hits against the enemy and LL + 20% for hits against me, and I’m usually NOT off by much.)

[trihero]

A carrier sitting in the Baltic really does not do you much good. It’s when you use it to link the med and baltic navies together that it gets to be quite powerful. Use the bid in Libya so Egypt can be taken without using the med transport, then send the med navy westwards and link with the baltic one on G2. That delays the Allies at least 2 turns because of how powerful that combined fleet is.

[Jennifer]

@trihero:

A carrier sitting in the Baltic really does not do you much good. It’s when you use it to link the med and baltic navies together that it gets to be quite powerful. Use the bid in Libya so Egypt can be taken without using the med transport, then send the med navy westwards and link with the baltic one on G2. That delays the Allies at least 2 turns because of how powerful that combined fleet is.

Exactly, but then you can block with the US Transport from Washington DC preventing the German fleets from combining until G3, giving Brition enough time to attack the Baltic fleet BEFORE it can join with the med fleet. (Allowing for US/USSR clean up should the dice be horribly against you.)

It makes sense later in the game.  I see no reason to harrass the German fleet in the Baltic as long as it stays there.  So building a carrier isn’t going to “save” your fleet.  After all, it’s just one transport, so you can move 2 units around Europe easier…not like that’s going to save you from 6 British, 6 American units + 8 -10 units from Russia.  I’d rather go for the jugular then a limb, if I can.

But you move that Baltic fleet out, or look like you’re moving to combine your fleets and I’m going to block you and then crush you like a grape.  Meanwhile, you’re down IPCs that you cannot really afford.  Brition doesn’t NEED to keep a strong fleet after UK2.  It also doesnt NEED to keep a strong RAF.  It’s MUCH easier if they do, but the US should, at that time, have plenty of capital ships near England to protect British assets.  Meanwhile, germany NEEDS that airforce.  It’s essential to the continued survival of the eastern and western fronts until Japan can get in to assist with it’s airforce.

[NoMercy]

@Jennifer:

It didn’t slow anything down in the last game. Yea, UK got delayed one turn, but the US took Fin/Nor anyway and the entire northern German fleet was scuddled.

So the Germans are short 26 IPCs (16 for purchases) 10 for a fighter. It could even be 36 if it lost BOTH fighters on that carrier - a very likely scenario. UK is down 3 Trans or 24 IPC worth to continue to be of aid to Russia. So 24 IPC loss to UK vs 36 IPC loss to Germany.

I understand that it’s 59 IPCs in units lost to England (2 Fig, 1 Bmb, 3 Trn) and 72 IPCs lost to Germany (1 CV, 2 FIG, 2 SS, 1 TRN, 1 DD) but realistically speaking, Germany doesn’t need the TRN, SS’s or DD and the CV isn’t needed either,but cost them 16 to produce. Meanwhile, England doesn’t need the two fighters and bomber to annoy Germany and defend Russia. They help in both cases, but they arn’t needed to win victory in either case.

Hey Jen,

The Delay by 1 turn is Huge… Gives me plenty of time to build-up Defenses
You played right into my hand the way I look at it.  I only bought 1 AC yes But with a 16 IPC purchase this is what was accomplished…

Also your losses were more significant.
3 Trn = [24] (you bought 1 of these)
1 AC = [16] (which you also had to buy) cancels my AC BUy.
2 Fgt = [20]
1 BB = [24]
1 bmb = [15]

Add it up = 99 IPC loss…

it also took you 2 full turns to get an already empty Norway (which I can take back at perhaps the loss of 1 inf.)

you perhaps are missing the knockdown effect. slowdown vs europe is also bad as it gives more time for Japan which is free-rolling cause of no opposition because of all the activity in the atlantic.

[Jennifer]

Mercy:

You got really good die rolls though.  1 BB, 1 CV, 3 TRN, 2 FIG, 1 BMB should get at least 3 hits, I got one on round one.  You got 3 on round one.  That’s friggin huge, dude.  I was lucky to have mutually assured destruction after that.

And let’s not forget the most likely result of that battle is:

19.7%: left with 1 Fig, 1 Bom, 1 Car, 1 dBat.

17.9%: left with 1 Bom, 1 Car, 1 dBat.

15.02%: left with 2 Fig, 1 Bom, 1 Car, 1 dBat.

12.54%: left with 1 Car, 1 dBat.

8.23%: left with 2 Fig, 1 Bom, 1 Tra, 1 Car, 1 dBat.

7.21%: left with 1 dBat.

3.13%: left with 2 Fig, 1 Bom, 2 Tra, 1 Car, 1 dBat.

0.54%: left with 2 Fig, 1 Bom, 3 Tra, 1 Car, 1 dBat.

0.07%: left with 1 Bom, 1 dBat.

0.05%: left with 2 Fig, 1 Bom, 3 Tra, 1 Car, 1 Bat.

0.04%: left with 1 Fig, 1 Bom, 1 dBat.

0.01%: left with 2 Fig, 1 Bom, 1 dBat.

15.56%: left with nothing.

That means, you loose 62 IPCs normally and Brition looses 34 IPCs normally, for that battle. (2 Fig, 1 Bmb, 1 BB, 1 CV, 3 Trn - England) vs (1 CV, 2 Fig, 2 SS, 1 DD - Germany)  According to the only AAR calcualtor I can find: http://frood.net/aacalc/  (84.4% in favor of England.)

If you do that in LL mode, you get:

33.33%: left with 1 Fig, 1 Bom, 1 Car, 1 dBat.

32.26%: left with 1 Bom, 1 Car, 1 dBat.

14.4%: left with 1 Car, 1 dBat.

12.34%: left with 2 Fig, 1 Bom, 1 Car, 1 dBat.

4.31%: left with 1 dBat.

1.38%: left with 2 Fig, 1 Bom, 1 Tra, 1 Car, 1 dBat.

1.98%: left with nothing

98% in favor of England.

So Germany looses 16 IPCs for the Carrier, 20 IPCs for the Fighters and England looses 24 IPCs for the Transports and 10 IPCs for a fighter.  36 IPCs lost by Germany in units that can be used on the land, vs 34 IPCs lost by England for units that can be used to attack the land.

Seems like a wash.  Maybe it’s a good strategy, maybe it is not.

[trihero]

Exactly, but then you can block with the US Transport from Washington DC preventing the German fleets from combining until G3, giving Brition enough time to attack the Baltic fleet BEFORE it can join with the med fleet. (Allowing for US/USSR clean up should the dice be horribly against you.)

Well I don’t think you can merely block the med fleet with one US transport. A German fighter or bomber can clear the transport while the fleet moves through during noncombat.

[Jennifer]

You know, I should stop arguing against this maneuver….especially given how I think it weakens Germany…I’d be much better off advocating it and then never using it myself. :)

[Guest]

Let me finish by saying this in response to your evaluation of the AC buy for the Baltic and not sailing it out to meet up with the Med fleet somewhere off France…

I buy the AC every game.  It almost never leaves the Baltic.
I am 9 out of 11 as the Axis since I joined DAAK, with losses to AAJax and Bebo.

Apparently, even just collecting dust in the Batlic, that AC must be worth something…

[Jennifer]

Don’t get me wrong.  I’m not saying the strategy is worthless.  What I am argueing about is the use of it on Germany 1 when I feel that the money can be better spent in land units to kill Russia faster.

Of course putting an AC in the Baltic helps.  Now your Baltic fleet isn’t merely a target to be destroyed by the RAF/USAF when they’re bored.  And that means you have more ships for Op Sea Lion after Russia falls.  But, it is probably NOT going to sink the British or Americans and keep the Atlantic safe.  It is definately not going to save France from Allied invasion threats.  And it may weaken you enough, given slightly biased die rolls against you, to allow Russia to pose immenant danger to Berlin before the Japs have enough in Evenki, Kazahk and Novosibirsk to truely threaten Moscow.

I just say hedge your bets and put everything you can to bear on Russia itself.  Diveriting almost half your income on round 1 to the navy seems risky to me.  Though, has anyone tried this with classic?  Does it work there, or does it only work in revised given somewhat normal if not blessed die rolls for Germany?

[Guest]

The idea is not to sink the Royal Navy in attack.

The idea is to sink large chunks of the Royal Navy, or shoot down large amounts of the Royal Air Force, when the Brits come calling.  And if the Brits happen to send TRNs along for fodder… so much the better.  Kill the TRNs as fodder instead of them being used to send troops to Europe or Africa.

Either way, presenting a target that WILL do damage to the British Fleet: in TRNs, in Capital Ships that defend the TRNs, and definitely in AF; is a GOOD move for Germany.

[jsp4563]

When I buy a carrier for the baltic the main purpose is secure the northern flank & prevent allied landings in E. Europe.  It also has the advantage of keeping any lightly defended allied fleets out of the English Channel & North sea.

[Guest]

@jsp4563:

When I buy a carrier for the baltic the main purpose is secure the northern flank & prevent allied landings in E. Europe.  It also has the advantage of keeping any lightly defended allied fleets out of the English Channel & North sea.

And that is usually enough to secure Berlin and Eastern from any attmpted amphibs until at least Turn 4 in most cases.

UK starts landing wherever it pelases in UK 2 if you do not reinforce the Baltic Fleet…

[Jennifer]

@jsp4563:

When I buy a carrier for the baltic the main purpose is secure the northern flank & prevent allied landings in E. Europe.  It also has the advantage of keeping any lightly defended allied fleets out of the English Channel & North sea.

But as the calculator points out, putting a carrier in the baltic isn’t going to stop anything.  England has plenty capability of destroying the fleet there with minimal losses and then having America follow up with an invasion force in pacified waters.

[Guest]

But not until T3 if you are plannign a USA follow-up.

Without the AC, the RAF can kill that fleet on UK1.

[Jennifer]

Well, on turn 2 you can destroy their fleet and have US forces landing in Fin/Nor.  Or you could have your transports go with on T2 and land them in E. Europe, just don’t use them as fodder.

[U-505]

The problem with a turn 2 UK attack on the Baltic fleet is that the UK won’t have enough navy built to prevent heavy casuatlies. And the secondary feature of the Baltic fleet is that if the UK gets within range of it on UK1 in preparation of a UK2 attack is that the UK navy is within range of not only the Baltic navy but also the entire German air force as well so a G2 preemptive strike is likely to occur.

[Guest]

You got it U-505 :-)

Just because I do not “normally” sail that fleet out of the Baltic does not mean that I will pass up a juicy little fleet to sink if it comes calling too close too soon :-)

[frimmel]

@ncscswitch:

When I buy a carrier for the baltic the main purpose is secure the northern flank & prevent allied landings in E. Europe. It also has the advantage of keeping any lightly defended allied fleets out of the English Channel & North sea.

And that is usually enough to secure Berlin and Eastern from any attmpted amphibs until at least Turn 4 in most cases.

UK starts landing wherever it pelases in UK 2 if you do not reinforce the Baltic Fleet…

I can certainly attest to that. Or if you take the fleet out of the Baltic too soon. Dumb, Dumb knowed it was dumb but got myself talked into it anyway. Then there were the bad decisions turn two…

[Grimelark]

If we’re playing with Heavy Bombers and I’mGemany I’ll start off the game with 4 dice going for it.  If I get them I will buy bombers and transports.

With that mix you can destroy the British fleet and harry the Americans into having to drop their troops deep into Africa.  Or they have to spend a lot of cash on working up a defense.  Either way the bombers and transports are dual useful.and at 23 a turn I can still buy inf to keep Russia at bay.by turn 5 I will own most of Africa, will have sunk most of anything in the atlantic and will be holding my borders firm from Russia.

[Jennifer]

@Grimelark:

If we’re playing with Heavy Bombers and I’mGemany I’ll start off the game with 4 dice going for it.  If I get them I will buy bombers and transports.

With that mix you can destroy the British fleet and harry the Americans into having to drop their troops deep into Africa.  Or they have to spend a lot of cash on working up a defense.  Either way the bombers and transports are dual useful.and at 23 a turn I can still buy inf to keep Russia at bay.by turn 5 I will own most of Africa, will have sunk most of anything in the atlantic and will be holding my borders firm from Russia.

Think that’s why most games forbid technologies. :(

HB’s are also good for counter strikes against Russia.  2 or 3 of them plus a couple infantry will obliterate 6 defending units no problem, and you probably wont loose your bombers in the process….or SBR (12 from Russia; 8 from Brition)