Do you need that many distinctions?
I mean besides letting a team’s units travel thru or stay in their territory, and income (like Swedan to Germany) what other effects are there?
We could go all the way and have situations like Allies can’t invade a “neutral” which is minor Axis, unless Axis units are there…
OK heres an example:
Somehow Spain falls from neutral -2 into -3 which is slightly pro axis.
-3= Air units can fly over this neutral
-4= You gain the neutrals money (consider it aid)
-5= Your armed forces can move thru this neutral w/o penalty
-6= The neutral now allows its armed forces to be involved in attacks against adjacent country’s
-7= The neutrals economy and armed forces are now in direct control of the coalition they are aligned with… these forces can be sent anywhere the player wishes.
this would be the same hierarchy for axis or allies.
the allies would be positive integers
specific events would trigger a neutral status roll… e.g. taking a neighbor over by conquest would allow a roll.
the “die roll” consists of each side rolling once … whoever wins gets the status moved up or down the neutral scale… modifications for as i said taking a country next to the neutral or taking out a major player or VC… many things could happen.
possibly too much to monitor
though I the levels/distinctions you’ve outlines is quite reasonable
but you’ve left out the case of just air bases
so air units can move through as well as stay
was there a historic case, or is it a reasonable hypothesis…of a “neutral” letting both axis AND allies aircraft to fly though it?
Their is no such case. I thought further on this…
Germany gets 2 rolls
USA gets 2 rolls
UK gets 1 roll
japan and USSR get zero rolls
each turn one neutral can be targeted for change in status: if you roll a 6 or higher the neutral nation moves closer to align with your camp. Only one roll per neutral and each territory you own adjacent to this territory gives you a +1 modification on the roll.
some neutrals are at perfect zero, while others are either up or down the scale. Once a nation passes into your camp… then the other side cannot convert it back. so if a neutral is at -3 its in the axis camp no matter what.
I will prepare other modifications based on if you own a specific nation to model history.
the idea works very well… because say the allies move argentina toward becoming an ally… the axis can counter on its turn and attempt to move it back into neutrality.
this sounds cool!
adjacent territories
eg. being surrounded by Axis, Switzerland is not going to switch to pro-Allies
frequent switching
ensure neutrals don’t keep switching sides…because that wouldn’t be right :|
occupying forces
the status of a neutral should freeze if there is occupying forces
levels
how about just
-3 full axis, no longer neutral, invadable by allies
-2 axis forces can go thru
-1 income to axis
0 neutral
+1 allies ditto
+2 allies ditto
+3 allies ditto
income
Afghanistan, Asia: 1
Angola, Africa: 0
Argentina, South America: 1
Eire, Europe: 0
Himalaya, Asia: 0
Mongolia, Asia: 1
Mozambique, Africa: 0
Peru, South America: 1
Rio De Oro, Africa: 0
Sahara, Asia: 0
Saudi Arabia, Asia: 2
Spain, Europe: 3
Sweden, Europe: 2
Switzerland, Europe: 1
Turkey, Europe: 2
Venezuela, South America: 1
They cant “switch”… reread my last post… once its in your camp thats it… On the issue of switzerland they would be at zero which requires 3 movement points to get it in your camp, plus they would only get about one infantry as forces and a economic value of say 1…so bottom line it would be a waste of your roll for the value in return. The battleground would be turkey, sweden, spain, south america and naturally some are closer to the axis camp than allies while others are pro allies or neutral +1 or +2
I was editing my post and took 2 minutes too long haha
adjacent territories
eg. being surrounded by Axis, Switzerland is not going to switch to pro-Allies
frequent switching
ensure neutrals don’t keep switching sides…because that wouldn’t be right
occupying forces
the status of a neutral should freeze if there is occupying forces
levels
how about just
-3 full axis, no longer neutral, invadable by allies
-2 axis forces can go thru
-1 income to axis
0 neutral
+1 allies ditto
+2 allies ditto
+3 allies ditto
++++ this can work but the neutral needs to be three clicks so both axis and allies can “compete” for support…
example: axis move argentina from neutral to -1… now the allies dont have any chance to counter to bring it back into neutrality…
the values should be either 3 or 5 for each catagory… how much different is it under my system, plus it allows more possible situations that are historically accurate. having 3 choices … its allmost like no graduations within each status…
at least the 5 spot choice has a bit more flavor dont you think?
income
Afghanistan, Asia: 1
Angola, Africa: 0
Argentina, South America: 2
Eire, Europe: 0
Himalaya, Asia: 0
Mongolia, Asia: 1
Mozambique, Africa: 0
Peru, South America: 1
Rio De Oro, Africa: 0
Sahara, Asia: 0
Saudi Arabia, Asia: 2
Spain, Europe: 4
Sweden, Europe: 2
Switzerland, Europe: 1
Turkey, Europe: 3
Venezuela, South America: 1
OK lets try a 11 step tier:
+5= They become your full ally they fight your battles
+4= you can move your forces thru them.
+3= You gain the neutrals money (consider it aid)
+2= slightly less neutral, but Allied Air units can fly over the airspace ( still neutral)
+1= less neutral
0 = perfect neutral
-1 = less neutral
-2 = slightly less neutral, but axis Air units can fly over the airspace ( still neutral)
-3= You gain the neutrals money (consider it aid)
-4= you can move your forces thru them.
-5= They become your full ally they fight your battles
USA rolls 2 dice a turn, UK one
Germany rolls 2 dice per turn
success on a 6+ modification for each NEW additional adjacent territory you control =+1
new Control of the nation that is adjacent=+2
conquering a major power= +3
Example: Sweden starts at -2 and on Germanyy turn they wish to make her a better ally… she uses one roll to convert… no modifications because the german controlled territories that are adjacent are not NEWLY controlled… germany rolls a 5 and misses… she will try next time…
OK now the allies took out Finland /Norway and wish to push Sweden back down the other direction… they get a +1 and also roll a 5 but the +1 makes it a six and now Sweden is at -1 and now germany cannot move planes into its airspace.
to sum up neutrality is technically 5 slots which can be affected by rolls by either side. Secondly once the neutral is in the camp of the other side it cannot be moved back.it can however be further moved in the alliances direction.
Ok in your 5 slot system, at which point can you invade them?
Sweden gave income to Germany in WWII right? But Allies didn’t invade them did they?
adjacent territories - fixed, you’ve got a +1 +2 +3 scheme
frequent switching - fixed, can’t go back towards netural as soon as level +3 or -3?
occupying forces - fixed, since you can only have occupying force if you become full Axis or full Allies
But I worry 5 steps is too long for Neutrals to join up.
Now about back to 3 steps again, but air space before income.
+3 Allies control
+2 Allies income
+1 Allies air space
0 Neutral
-1
-2
-3
Now you have time to counter before physical advantage such as income comes into effect.
Ok in your 5 slot system, at which point can you invade them?
++++ you can invade any neutral at any time… this makes the neutral automatically join the other side as an ally.
Sweden gave income to Germany in WWII right?
++++ yes they did
But Allies didn’t invade them did they?
++++ no and latter in the war when finland fell sweden was pressured in going back to neutrality ( not pro- axis)
adjacent territories - fixed, you’ve got a +1 +2 +3 scheme
frequent switching - fixed, can’t go back towards netural as soon as level +3 or -3?
++++ yes +3 or -3 right thats the boundry line.
occupying forces - fixed, since you can only have occupying force if you become full Axis or full Allies
++++ well yes.
But I worry 5 steps is too long for Neutrals to join up.
Now about back to 3 steps again, but air space before income.
++++ the reasoning why the neutral stands at 5 and allies are 3 tiers is due too provide more decisions… example: the US player has shifted the neutral 2 one notch toward allies but the german can have a chance to reverse this with its own roll. many neutrals are not at zero… in fact perhaps one would be at zero… all the rest are 1-2 notches from either axis or allied camp. if we go with 3 possible outcomes we lose the “back and forth” action because it will be much harder to neutrals to get pulled back in line due to the one in 6 outcome. it will take about 3-4 rolls to succeed.
secondly i would not like to see too many neutrals change positions in the game…
+3 Allies control
+2 Allies income
+1 Allies air space
0 Neutral
-1
-2
-3
Now you have time to counter before physical advantage such as income comes into effect
+++under that system their is no reaction time to possibly have any chance to make the ally move back the other way. its kinda like tech… once you get the heavy bombers… the other player has little chance to get the same unless he could have earlier chances to address the issue with his own rolls. play test the rules . do it for a 10 turn run and post results.
@Imperious:
in fact perhaps one would be at zero… all the rest are 1-2 notches from either axis or allied camp. if we go with 3 possible outcomes we lose the “back and forth” action
Oh yeah I see. I guess we do need 5 slots.
you can invade any neutral at any time… this makes the neutral automatically join the other side as an ally.
And if you fly units through them, maybe free rolls for the other side?
Turn seqeunce
When do you decide on the rolls and when do you roll?
I think diplomacy is not like technology? So don’t need to decide at the beginning of the turn and see result at end of the turn.
Maybe a “Phase 8: Diplomacy”.
Income, Military, starting neutrality
We have drafted the income list.
For military…so far I notice Argentina, Spain and Turkey should have a few INF?
And for starting neutrality…so far I notice Argentina and Sweden is pro-Axis?
Afghanistan, Asia: 1 IPC
Angola, Africa: 0 IPC
Argentina, South America: 2 IPC + 2 INF?
Eire, Europe: 0 IPC
Himalaya, Asia: 0 IPC
Mongolia, Asia: 1 IPC
Mozambique, Africa: 0 IPC
Peru, South America: 1 IPC
Rio De Oro, Africa: 0 IPC
Sahara, Asia: 0 IPC
Saudi Arabia, Asia: 2 IPC
Spain, Europe: 4 IPC + 4 INF?
Sweden, Europe: 2 IPC
Switzerland, Europe: 1 IPC
Turkey, Europe: 3 IPC + 3 INF?
Venezuela, South America: 1 IPC
That looks good… some of the forces are not accurate with my sources… ill convert these armies…
you can invade any neutral at any time… this makes the neutral automatically join the other side as an ally.
And if you fly units through them, maybe free rolls for the other side?
Turn seqeunce
When do you decide on the rolls and when do you roll?
I think diplomacy is not like technology? So don’t need to decide at the beginning of the turn and see result at end of the turn.
Maybe a “Phase 8: Diplomacy”.
Income, Military, starting neutrality
We have drafted the income list.
For military…so far I notice Argentina, Spain and Turkey should have a few INF?
And for starting neutrality…so far I notice Argentina and Sweden is pro-Axis?
Afghanistan, Asia: 1 IPC, one infantry
Angola, Africa: 0 IPC
Argentina, South America: 2 IPC + 2 INF yes good
Eire, Europe: 0 IPC
Himalaya, Asia: 0 IPC
Mongolia, Asia: 1 IPC +1 infantry
Mozambique, Africa: 0 IPC
Peru, South America: 1 IPC + 1 infantry
Rio De Oro, Africa: 0 IPC owned by spain ( colony)
Sahara, Africa: 0 IPC
Saudi Arabia, Asia: 2 IPC
Spain, Europe: 4 IPC + 5 INF, 1 art, 1 tank, 1 fighter, 1 DD, 1 transport
Sweden, Europe: 2 IPC + 3 infantry, 1 art
Switzerland, Europe: 1 IPC+ 1 infantry
Turkey, Europe: 3 IPC + 4 infantry, 1 tank, 1 fighter,1 art
Venezuela, South America: 1 IPC+ 1 infantry
Spain, Sweden, and Turkey has significant military. Should they have a Victory City too?
Rio De Oro being a colony of Spain, any attack on either the colony or Spain by one team should bring them both to the other team?
Where shall Spain’s navy be and can you attack them?
Spain, Sweden, and Turkey has significant military. Should they have a Victory City too?
++++ those nations had significant military… id add a victory city in ankarra and madrid… most strategic wargames like this have that
Rio De Oro being a colony of Spain, any attack on either the colony or Spain by one team should bring them both to the other team?
++++ right attack on either is an attack on spain
Where shall Spain’s navy be and can you attack them?
++++ in port
++++ those nations had significant military… id add a victory city in ankarra and madrid… most strategic wargames like this have that
So no VC for Sweden.
Any of the Neutrals with insignificant or close to non-existent military deserve a VC?
Where shall Spain’s navy be and can you attack them?
++++ in port
So in effect these naval units are out of the game until Spain joins Axis or Allies.
Starting position
We are moving along great. Lets start plotting some starting positions of the neutrals. As mentioned so far identified are pro-axis Switzerland, Sweden, Spain, Argentina?
So no VC for Sweden.
Any of the Neutrals with insignificant or close to non-existent military deserve a VC?
++++ possibly persia ( mosul) as an oil center… problem is its easy to capture w/o military forces. Sweden is not so important its below the abstraction level ( not a primary important center)
So in effect these naval units are out of the game until Spain joins Axis or Allies.
Starting position
We are moving along great. Lets start plotting some starting positions of the neutrals. As mentioned so far identified are pro-axis Switzerland, Sweden, Spain, Argentina?
++++ yes thinking same… switzerland should be one notch (-1) toward axis
@Imperious:
Any of the Neutrals with insignificant or close to non-existent military deserve a VC?
++++ possibly persia ( mosul) as an oil center… problem is its easy to capture w/o military forces.[/quote
Um…Persia is not Neutral?
By the way I do have Persia as a Victory City in my version of VC list.
As for oil center…are you talking about “oil rules”?[/quote]
Sorry gaffed… persia is UK… lets just use the VC list from phase one … BTW where is Duke? hes been gone for like 3 weeks with a few posts here and there.
