I don’t understant the 1-2 or 1-3. Isn’t it 2 or less and 3 or less?
Yes.
And forgive the old man. :-D He is getting mixed up between all those boardgames he created varients for.
I don’t understant the 1-2 or 1-3. Isn’t it 2 or less and 3 or less?
And for the tanks battles, Thats a great idea too. It’s more strategic like that.
IN air combat all attacking fighters fight at 2 or less, all defending fighters are at 3 or less… all other planes are at 1 ( bombers)
yeah definitely don’t want bombers downing lots of fighters
right one is the lowest value that can be assigned so one it is.
So Infantry kills infantry, until there is no more ennemy infantry. Tanks kill tanks, air units kill air units first and then pound ground units without possibility of being fired at. If there are no defending fighters, tanks and planes attack at 4 on a one to one basis.
yeah
and if it was the defender with air supermacy, it would be tank at 3 and fighter at 5?
or does the bonus only go for attacking?
So Infantry kills infantry, until there is no more ennemy infantry. Tanks kill tanks, air units kill air units first and then pound ground units without possibility of being fired at. If there are no defending fighters, tanks and planes attack at 4 on a one to one basis.
In land combat their is a possiblity for any units to be hit… if the infantry hit something the defender can destroy a tank instead of another infantry… only when a tanks hit the hit allocation must go against another tank artillery unit… In this way your tank armies are very important… you must have an advantage in tanks just like in real combat or you get the back door.
If their are no air units left… then air units pound the ground units AS LONG AS YOU HAVE ENGAGED LAND FORCES AND BOTH SIDES DO NOT RETREAT… then air units fight at normal values ( attack at 3). so we change the attack value of planes when they fight other air units and not when engaged in air combat.
@Imperious:
if the infantry hit something the defender can destroy a tank instead of another infantry… only when a tanks hit the hit allocation must go against another tank artillery unit… In this way your tank armies are very important… you must have an advantage in tanks just like in real combat or you get the back door.
INF hits can allocated on any land units.
ARM hits must be allocated on ARM or ART units first.
I wonder if ART should be able to target ARM/ART and lose its ability to give infantry +1 bonus?
NO artillery should keep its bonus, but its hit allocations are against infantry… however, when your tanks score hits the defender CAN allocate artillery as loses instead of tanks. this is the only case where artillery are involved like this.
so its
INF hits on any land units
ARM hits on ARM or ART units first
ART hits on INF first (or is that any land units?)
now, back to air units combating without ground control
any updates Imperious Leader?
A fixed number of turns would be unrealistic, even when defending thus “inactive”.
I sugguest some sorta dice rolling, air units individually forced to retreat, related to number of enemy land units, different values for attacking or defending.
It shall be quite a full solution.
Yes lone attacking air units is covered too. Air power is not unlimited. You don’t have one single air division repelling a sizable army.
air only attack:
Defender rolls a dice for each defending land unit excluding AA in step 5, for every roll of 1 roll another dice. For every roll of 2 or less attacker retreats an air unit.
_On average 18 units/cycles to retreat one air unit. Assuming defender holds at all costs. Rough maths, dead land units not removed, more would be killed in practice.
1 FTR attacks 18 INF……0.5 INF would be killed
1 FTR attacks 9 INF…0.5 + 0.5 INF = 1 INF would be killed
1 FTR attacks 3 INF…0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 1.5 INF would be killed
4 FTR attacks 18 INF…2 + 1.5 + 1 + 0.5 = 4.5 INF would be killed
4 FTR attacks 9 INF…2 + 2 + 1.5 + 1.5 + 1 + 1 etc = ALL INF would be killed_
air only defend:
Attacker rolls a dice for each attacking land unit excluding AA in step 4. For every roll of 1 attacker retreats an air unit.
_On average 6 rolls to retreat one air unit. Assuming attacker pushes at all costs. Rough maths, dead land units not removed, more would be killed in practice.
6 INF attacks 1 FTR……0.66 INF would be killed
3 INF attacks 1 FTR…0.66 + 0.66 INF would be killed
6 INF attacks 2 FTR…1.33 + 0.66 = 2 INF would be killed
6 INF attacks 3 FTR…all INF would be killed
12 INF attacks 3 FTR…3 INF killed_
so its
INF hits on any land units
ARM hits on ARM or ART units first
ART hits on INF first (or is that any land units?
This is better:
All attacking infantry hits are the choice of defender
All attacking armor hits are allocated to defending armor or artillery before the selection can be made to any other land unit.
now, back to air units combating without ground control
any updates Imperious Leader?
A fixed number of turns would be unrealistic, even when defending thus “inactive”.
I sugguest some sorta dice rolling, air units individually forced to retreat, related to number of enemy land units, different values for attacking or defending.
It shall be quite a full solution.
Yes lone attacking air units is covered too. Air power is not unlimited. You don’t have one single air division repelling a sizable army.
air only attack:
Defender rolls a dice for each defending land unit excluding AA in step 5, for every roll of 1 roll another dice. For every roll of 2 or less attacker retreats an air unit.
++++ air only attack does not involve land units. if you move your air units into a space where only defending air units are they combat according to air combat values ( see other material). If you attack a territory with land units and air units they each combat seperatly. If AA guns are present and they roll first before aerial combat begins ( hitting on two rolls of one, and forced retreats on two rolls of 2–- all other results are ignored. They may also recieve more than one roll depending on the territory under attack. I will reword my previous post on this.
On average 18 units/cycles to retreat one air unit. Assuming defender holds at all costs. Rough maths, dead land units not removed, more would be killed in practice.
1 FTR attacks 18 INF…0.5 INF would be killed
1 FTR attacks 9 INF…0.5 + 0.5 INF = 1 INF would be killed
1 FTR attacks 3 INF…0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 1.5 INF would be killed
4 FTR attacks 18 INF…2 + 1.5 + 1 + 0.5 = 4.5 INF would be killed
4 FTR attacks 9 INF…2 + 2 + 1.5 + 1.5 + 1 + 1 etc = ALL INF would be killed
air only defend:
Attacker rolls a dice for each attacking land unit excluding AA in step 4. For every roll of 1 attacker retreats an air unit.
On average 6 rolls to retreat one air unit. Assuming attacker pushes at all costs. Rough maths, dead land units not removed, more would be killed in practice.
6 INF attacks 1 FTR…0.66 INF would be killed
3 INF attacks 1 FTR…0.66 + 0.66 INF would be killed
6 INF attacks 2 FTR…1.33 + 0.66 = 2 INF would be killed
6 INF attacks 3 FTR…all INF would be killed
12 INF attacks 3 FTR…3 INF killed
@Imperious:
++++ air only attack does not involve land units.
No I meant an attack where the attacker only brings air units, rather than a purely air to air combat.
Its a long post I guess you didn’t read all of it :lol:
In that case its a voided attack… the planes cannot attack land units preemtively w/o supporting land units. WE can also just allow one free attack but it looks better the first way. Its just too decisive to allow it will cripple game balance. thats one of the problems we playtested and air power really killed land units to the point where the infantry commander was pissed.
@Imperious:
the planes cannot attack land units preemtively w/o supporting land units.
Oh why? Does it make a difference since all land units can’t hit the air units anyway?
Or are you saying you can’t have an attacking force of purely air units?
WE can also just allow one free attack but it looks better the first way.
Oh, you ARE saying you can’t have an attacking force of purely air units?
My post is about both attacker and defender having only air units.
purely air attack
Neither side has ability to contol land hence can fight forever. My proposal is that land units (not air units) force air units to retreat.
P.S. Did German fighters and bombers actually landed on grass during Battle of Britain?
the planes cannot attack land units preemtively w/o supporting land units.
Oh why? Does it make a difference since all land units can’t hit the air units anyway?
Or are you saying you can’t have an attacking force of purely air units?
the second works better… you need land forces in order to have attacking planes that get preemtive attacks. What do you think?
Quote
WE can also just allow one free attack but it looks better the first way.
Oh, you ARE saying you can’t have an attacking force of purely air units?
My post is about both attacker and defender having only air units.
++++if purely air attack then both sides use the aerial combat values… thats it. it can continue as long as both sides want.
purely air attack
Neither side has ability to contol land hence can fight forever. My proposal is that land units (not air units) force air units to retreat.
++++ how do land units force air to retreat?
P.S. Did German fighters and bombers actually landed on grass during Battle of Britain?
+++++ yes they did they landed in the desert as well as long as the runway was flat and firm. Of course this was ad hoc airfield. but in war everything in improvisation.
@Imperious:
the second works better… you need land forces in order to have attacking planes that get preemtive attacks. What do you think?
Let me get this straight.
Air units need friendly land units to get preemptive strike?
Or air units need friendly land units to get to strike at all?
the planes cannot attack land units preemtively w/o supporting land units.
There is no difference at all if land units (besides AA, but AA can’t be hit anyway) can’t hit air units anyway? No planes without supporting land units (ie. air units only, no land units) should still fire in opening-fire…whether dogfighting or not.
I think it makes sense especially now you are thinking of making your excess dogfighting hits leak onto enemy ground units.
++++if purely air attack then both sides use the aerial combat values… thats it. it can continue as long as both sides want.
Yes. Purely air combat. But “battle of britain” won’t be purely air combat when London has land units. Once dogfighting is over German fighter pound the land units I think?
++++ how do land units force air to retreat?
This is my proposal to solve the problem of
*one FTR attacks and performs killing forever,
*one FTR defends and performs killing forever, or
*if the last case should have the FTR retreat…then one INF forcing 10 FTR to retreat
My proposal gives land units a small chance to force air units to retreat (modelling finally no where to relocate mobile airfield) in a combat where one side purely air units.
yes they did they landed in the desert as well as long as the runway was flat and firm. Of course this was ad hoc airfield. but in war everything in improvisation.
Ok good.
Was playtesting today
Indeed air units (with air supremacy) firing in opening-fire is quite strong. Germany’s eastward push to Russia is now easier.
And with the land combat part of amphibious assault….that rule that only infantry fight in first cycle…
we’ll state more clearly:
An amphibious assault attack force must contain INF.
All INF start fighting from 1st cycle.
All ARM and ART are “unloaded” and start fighting in 2nd cycle.
If no attacking INF remain at the end of 1st cycle, attacking ARM and ART do not unload and do not enter combat.
(In reality they remain on the transport ships, haven’t been able to secure the coast for landing.)
Shore Bombardment and Infantry Support
During Ground Combat, for amphibious assaults, all surface warships with a primary combat value of two or higher have one preemptive “shore bombardment†attack. In order to support landings you must land four Land units to receive one shore bombardment shot. Defenders losses do not fire back. In addition, each warship (whether supporting or not) improves one attacking infantry unit with an attack die roll modifier of +1 on the first round only. So if you only land 3 Infantry, you still get each of them with a +1 modifier provided you have at least three warships with an attack value of two. Warships that participate in Naval Combat may not shore bombard or provide infantry support for amphibious assaults.
Defending Artillery fire in Amphibious Assault
Following shore bombardment attacks, any defending artillery units present then receive one round of preemptive fire upon invading enemy units. Hits are taken first (chosen by the attacker) and removed from play. Land combat then follows in the normal manner starting with section #2.
First Round land combat restrictions
The attacker’s first land combat phase is restricted to Infantry only (including Airborne).
So to summarize invasions:
4) Shore bombardment (preemptive).
5) Defender artillery fire support (preemptive).
6) Tactical Air Command missions against defending air units/ land units (preemptive if only land units are defending).
7) Attacking Infantry can attack on round one; all other land units can attack on round two or latter.
Cool Defender rolls for all land units (except Artillery which fired).
9) Continue combat rounds until one side is destroyed or retreats from battle.
um…why did you post all that again?
they don’t answer my questions :?
they are:
under air supremacy, what difference does it make whether air units need supporting land units to fire in opening-fire if enemy land units can’t hit them anyway?
how do you like my proposal of a low chance of land units forcing air units (without supporting land units) to retreat? This is to solve the “1 FTR attack and kill 10 ARM” and the “1 INF attack forcing 10 FTR to retreat” situations in the latest rules. It represents land forces rounding up their airfield or preventing them from relocating their moible airfield.
@Imperious:
During Ground Combat, for amphibious assaults, all surface warships with a primary combat value of two or higher have one preemptive “shore bombardment†attack.
So destroyers can bombard now without technology upgrade?
I guess thats reasonable. Their guns would have enough range.
Warships that participate in Naval Combat may not shore bombard or provide infantry support for amphibious assaults.
I question this OOB rule.
I understand its so a unit don’t fight twice.
But what does this map to in reality? Ships ran ot of ammunition/fuel?
From other thread:
@Imperious:
IMO each turn = 6 months… each round of combat is say 1 month?
What do you think of limiting combats to 6 cycles?
This would get rid of “1 FTR attack and kill 10 ARM” situation.
under air supremacy, what difference does it make whether air units need supporting land units to fire in opening-fire if enemy land units can’t hit them anyway?
++++++Air units need land units to attack territories and land units cannot gain from the bonus +1 with armor… I think that if air units alone attack a territory they should have modified combat values ( prob fighters attack at 1, bombers attack at 2 ) after one round of this nonsense the land units can retreat. This would be my proposal to solve this.
how do you like my proposal of a low chance of land units forcing air units (without supporting land units) to retreat? This is to solve the “1 FTR attack and kill 10 ARM” and the “1 INF attack forcing 10 FTR to retreat” situations in the latest rules. It represents land forces rounding up their airfield or preventing them from relocating their moible airfield.
++++++Ill come back to this is a second post…
Quote from: Imperious Leader on June 24, 2006, 11:15:05 AM
During Ground Combat, for amphibious assaults, all surface warships with a primary combat value of two or higher have one preemptive “shore bombardment†attack.
So destroyers can bombard now without technology upgrade?
I guess thats reasonable. Their guns would have enough range.
++++++ on shore bombardment only BB, CA and DD get a shot, but again its one shot for every 4 land units in the opening invasion combat round
Quote
Warships that participate in Naval Combat may not shore bombard or provide infantry support for amphibious assaults.
I question this OOB rule.
I understand its so a unit don’t fight twice.
But what does this map to in reality? Ships ran ot of ammunition/fuel?
+++++ no not at all. it represents the reality of playability and abstraction:
From other thread:
Quote from: Imperious Leader on June 22, 2006, 12:46:49 PM
IMO each turn = 6 months… each round of combat is say 1 month?
What do you think of limiting combats to 6 cycles?
This would get rid of “1 FTR attack and kill 10 ARM” situation.
+++++ i am not sure why that is such a big deal. Just limit the whole affair to: 1)fighters cannot attack land forces w/o your own land forces or
2) fighters can attack land forces alone with a modified attack of (1 for fighters, 2 for bombers) or 3) air forces get one free attack alone against air forces after which point they retreat after one combat round.
@Imperious:
1)fighters cannot attack land forces w/o your own land forces or
2) fighters can attack land forces alone with a modified attack of (1 for fighters, 2 for bombers) or 3) air forces get one free attack alone against air forces after which point they retreat after one combat round.
I think 3) would be most realistic.
That one can be justified by loss of land control.
It would get rid of 1 FTR attack and kill 10 ARM.
Or 1 INF attack and forcing 10 FTR to retreat.
