?? Best way to take France ??

[Starlight Sniper]

Unfortunately, we ended up playing the Europe side of the Global Axis and Allies. I achieved a Victory by Surrender playing as the Allies. A steady purchase of cheap destroyers as the UK prevailed against the Axis navy.

I’ve been reading some of the replies on this posting and I’m getting the idea that attacking France is not the way to go. I am in agreement. Russia is the easier, hitable target and best to get out of the game early. But this is such an easy and standard option, I was looking for a new way to beat up on my friends, lol. On the next game night I’ll suggest the 1914 edition and hopefully I can put some of the suggestions to good use.

If France does nothing but defend and retreat then it’ll be a very hard nut to crack. We’ll have to see what purchases the French player makes (they sometimes try for an attack force instead of a defensive core).  Sticking to the coast seems the safest way to go as long as you’re not short on men for defense. I’d try and hit Paris a little later than Turn 5, maybe allow the Ottomans to take the first strike or at least knock out the air force in Paris (a great sacrifice move I call "The Gord Maneuver )  If somehow you can clear the Med of allied forces, you could also transport Ottomans or Austrians to France. Like I said, I’ll post the results on the next game of 1914 we play. Wish me luck in the takedown of Paris . . . . .

Starlight Sniper

[Flashman]

Thinking of making it a hard rule that the USA will not declare war unless Russia is defeated or has collapsed.

This represents the fact that Wilson did not want to align America with the absolute Tzarist monarchy. Using PTR any collapse represents the fall of the Tzar and a republican Russia, meaning USA can declare war (though still not before turn 4).

How would this effect the KRF strategy outlined above?

Would CP players push Russia to the brink of collapse, but deliberately avoid tipping it over?

Would a KFF strategy become more viable given the indefinite postponement of US intervention, or do the CPs still need the income from a conquered Russia to defeat the western europeans?

In other words how important is the ticking clock of American involvment in determining CP strategy?

[Chacmool]

Flash, you were absolutely right. The US-war-declaration just followed the February Revolution in Russia.

But why not say US only enters war after it loses its income because of USW ?

If I do remember it correctly, THIS was the reason told to the world.

If the Germany player doesn´t start USW, this game won´t see an US intervention!

And here we are again - reconsidering the useless USW rules…

[WILD BILL]

On the topic of going Paris first:

We took this route a couple of times OOB, only change was reducing French sz15 fleet to just a cruiser, by swapping out BB, and removing the transport (we were doing this even before the tourney rules). The eastern crush Russia first strat gets boring (and also seems to fail), so we wanted to look at the west. It didn’t go well, but to be honest we only did it a couple times, and I think it could be improved.

We basically had Germany go full tilt West, and A/H go East (with some assistance to both). As stated one very strong axis army tends to work better then two weaker multinational armies side by side when on the attack.  All available German units went west except Prussia and part of Silesia (needed to help def against Russia). You also need to have a small 9-12 unit A/H contingent with you in the west to watch your flank (probably hit the Italians in Venice to weaken/threaten them, then move into Switzerland etc…).

The Germans can gain temporary control of the North Sea OOB w/o a major navy build up (reduction of French sz15 fleet helps), but I have to say we didn’t buy BB’s for Germany to prolong it, interesting idea though (could this be a key to success?). Yeah buying a couple BB’s would weaken your reinforcements coming in from Berlin, but if you had long term control of the sea, besides keeping the Brits out of France you could transport German units to Picardy from Kiel faster then if they had to make the long walk. The problem here of course is that the English mines from sz9 could cost you the game when your transports move back-n-forth to Picardy, even if you have full control of sz9 w/escorts. This happened in one of our games, the Germans kept loosing transports to mines (not saying this is a flaw, but if you have establish complete control of an enemy mined sz and are simply moving transports back-n-forth the next turn should they be subject to mines? or should the sz be considered cleared of mines).

Anyway, the French can put up a monster defense by themselves by pulling back/turtling, buying mostly inf, and pulling in reinforcements from Portugal etc… It is also next to impossible to put a dent in the French income because of untouchable territories in Africa/Portugal etc…, plus the French territories along the border are only worth 2 IPCs (unlike their counterpart German border territories worth much more).

Once the Italians figure out you aren’t gunning for them, they can also reinforce thorough the Med (could send inf/planes by transport?).  The Brits may not be able to put many boots in France, but if they manage to get a couple ground units over, they might be able to send a couple planes to Brest via Whales  to help gain air superiority (might need to sacrifice A/H air to tip the scales for the main German assault for Art boost). Just a thought, but a bold French player might even take out Spain turn2 (from Portugal/Bordeaux) to collect 4 more IPCs (risky, maybe wait and have an ally weaken it first?).

A/H will have their hands full w/Russia, but if they are patient and get a little help I have seen them rival what the Russians can bring (and even turn the tables). Italy does become a problem though, and they will start to invade the Balkans, and can also help out the French by Sea. This is why I think an early German navy build could work. It could draw much of the allied Med ships to the Atlantic, then would the A/H navy have a chance? (probably not, but would make for an interesting game none the less).

BTW, I also think that USW is a joke in this game (non existent). They should look at couple things. Add sz’s that can be attacked by USW, and have a threshold of USW that needs to be crossed to bring in the Americans, and/or make it harder to kill subs. The allies didn’t have an answer to sub warfare especially in the early days (couldn’t spot them). The allies main defense against subs were threats that the US would join the war (the Germans would back off, then reengage to test the US resolve). Even destroyers weren’t effective at this time, but they used air to spot subs though.

Maybe expanding the the roll of a fighter should be looked at. Fighters are already used to spot for art (boost attack/def), so maybe you should also be able to use fighters to spot subs in adjacent sz’s. This would cause a bit of a problem with the one movement phase, and would create an exception (might be worth it). You would have to allow fighters a NCM, but they can only use it if they use just one move in the normal move phase. This would allow a fighter to fly out 1 space to an adjacent sz, spot subs for their warships to attack (at full values), and move 1 more space afterwards to land (plane still only moves a total of 2 spaces max). It would also allow a fighter to move 1 space in a ground battle, then retreat if it chooses to (could retreat or stay depending on situation). If the fighter moves 2 spaces to get to a ground battle it must stay in that territory (used all its movement).

IDK, maybe you have a rule that says if an enemy sub submerges, you can’t hit it, unless you have a fighter spotting for you (maybe a submerging sub can only be hit with a roll of 1 if not using a plane to spot, still defenders choice?). If you have a fighter spotting for you, then all your warships fire at their normal values. That way if the enemy sub stays on the surface to fight (maybe fodder for other ships), then it can be taken out at normal attack values. This would have no effect on subs used in an attack, because all defending ships would defend at normal values because the sub attacked, didn’t submerge (gave up its position).

[Preussener]

Good discussion. I see a few things:
1. Focus on Russia.
2. Hold off France (Deutsche Army).
3. Hold off British (Kaiserliche Marine).

Yes, guys, I have been slightly changed on my position (for the better, right?). If France retreats all its forces, let it go.
However, I still hold that whenever France starts trying to go on the offensive (and losing more troops than you), punish it soundly.

Going after the British Navy is very rewarding, also…
@WILD:

We basically had Germany go full tilt West, and A/H go East (with some assistance to both). As stated one very strong axis army tends to work better then two weaker multinational armies side by side when on the attack. Â

The Germans can gain temporary control of the North Sea OOB w/o a major navy build up (reduction of French sz15 fleet helps), but I have to say we didn’t buy BB’s for Germany to prolong it, interesting idea though (could this be a key to success?). Yeah buying a couple BB’s would weaken your reinforcements coming in from Berlin, but if you had long term control of the sea, besides keeping the Brits out of France you could transport German units to Picardy from Kiel faster then if they had to make the long walk.

This is the strategy that has worked for me to keep Britain from the coasts of France (even when I play against experienced players).

By buying all/mostly navy on its turns, Germany has been able to accumulate ten battleships by the time the US becomes involved, with the UK hopelessly attempting to challenge them with their purchase of two BB’s a turn. This forces UK to focus on the Turks instead, who can then simply contract and pile infantry (sort of like France).

From the discussion, it seems that many have fallen into the trap of “following France into its den”. If France retreats, just focus on Russia until the French gain back their nerve.

[McJesusBane]

For one, taking russia out first is always a good idea, france and italy don’t have the power to overrun germany and AH unless they receive A LOT of british help within 3 turns. Play defensive on the western front and focus on crushing russia, it can easily be done if all three CP’s collaborated. Once Russia is down it is essential for AH do establish a front with France by controlling Piedmont. This means AH needs to focus on taking the northern reaches of Italy. this can be done by using the ICP’s gained from Russia and the Wave of extra troops coming from the eastern front. By establishing a border with france you extend the front line they must hold up, therefore reducing the amount of troops per territory. Once this occurs they are more spread out and less compact, making them more susceptible to collapse after constant pressure. In conclusion, France will be able to hold off germany unless the frontline gets extended beyond what they can comfortably defend.

[questioneer]

Take Russia first but keep steady punches on France til you can mount a force of tanks!

[Cow]

If you are going after France, you are gonna have a bad time. Expect to lose.

The best you can do is go after Italy first and knock it out. That way you are not fighting four countries on your western front, you are only fighting 3. USA, France, and Britian.

The most optimal strategy in general is going after Russia, because once that is done… you no longer have to put troops on that side of the board. It is done, you have a one front war.

When you have only one front, all of Hungary and all of Germany goes in one direction. Hungary will give Italy a hard time and eventually take it over if the two are left alone to fight. Same with Germany and France. So the Allies are forced into a defensive role. Meanwhile Turkey is going to go after the British Economy so France is not going to get the full might of the British to help out.

America is almost a non factor in this game, because it simply does not ship 10 units a round every turn starting in round 4, it takes a freaking long time before they have a stack of units that can be considered a threat to anything.

The Italy first strategy is a bit trickier, because after you take Italy with Hungary, Hungary and/or Germany will always have to invest into Russia. You want it to be mostly Hungary dealing with the Russians, because Germany has to deal with the French. Turks have to deal with the Brits. That is just how that works. So it is pretty much up to the Russians and Americans to come up with some kind of game changer.

~

Why France first means you are going to have a bad time?

1. That is the easiest thing for the allies to defend.

2. America’s closest landing spot is on your western front, you will end up dealing with them sooner as opposed to later down the road, later down the road the 12 units they managed to advance mean absolutely nothing.

3. The British can drop men off if necessary.

4. The Russians will pressure your eastern income.

Germany just has too much to deal with going after France.
~

Similarly when going after London. If you do go after london, have Hungary deal with the Russians so Germany has the same stack of units defending against France and Rome, without pressure from Russia. If you do get london, America will do its thing eventually, so you are going to pick everything up and ship it to Northern Russia and you will take out Russia in the end anyway.

Every Central Powers strategy has Russia as Step 1 or Step 2. You need an answer to Russia, because they are isolated making it difficult for them to receive help from the allies and if left alone they will come to you and make things difficult for you to fully invest into attacking any other power.

[MarineIguana]

Cow’s explanation regarding Germany attacking France makes sense from me. It seems much more profitable for Germany to commit against Russia, which is isolated. Allies defending france can combine France, UK, and Italy in a way that seems unrewarding for Germany to attack.

Disclaimer is that I’ve only played 1 game of this, but I’m very experienced A&A mechanics with hundreds of games with top tier players.

@Preussener: I hope you don’t take offense, but it’s very likely your opponents aren’t strong. I note repeated mentions of destroying large numbers of units or surprise. This is evidence that opponents are placing units in a deadzone allowing the opponent to make profitable attacks/trades. Evidence of highly competitive play is a drawn out game with opposing stacks and trading border territories with minimal troops. An experienced player also can project purchases and movements 3-10 rounds out, such that “surprise” doesn’t figure into the game.

[Preussener]

@ MarineIquana: Don’t worry. In fact, my opponents have gotten a lot more experienced and I use a different plan now.

@Cow: If you do not reinforce the Western Front, then France, UK, and US become an ENORMOUS powerhouse.
*Also, you eventually need to take Paris to win the game.
*As you said, the Western Front is the most easily reinforced place for the Allies, so it eventually becomes filled with planes, artillery, and even tanks since France and UK have nothing else to do but create a horrific OFFENSIVE machine.

In other words, unless the Allies make a colossal mistake (which happens…), the Centrals eventually lose the game.

[Imperious Leader]

Don’t waste planes in that attack. you got enough. Leave Normandy for turn 2 or let Italy take it on I2 if they lose their fleet they will need that income

[Cow]

USA is never a powerhouse. Maybe round 10.

UK is better off investing in India.

Taking out Russia is generally the way to go. If you do go for France. Get AH going to paris with its two closest starting stacks, go through the Italy units. Buy all fighters with Germany. G5 Paris. AH can take a territory for you to allow you to stack up next to paris with all your planes. Then you attack round 5 paris. Send AH in first to suicide. Germany follows it up. The end.

Yeah Russia is a pain in the butt for awhile, but you have to take out a country before round 6 or you lose.
~
USA is not even in this game, lalalalalala dont know what you guys are talking about. The piece of crap country does nothing for the first 6 rounds.