1942.2 & G40 Improving historical accuracy of amphibious assault

[baron Münchhausen]

OOB amphibious assault is not very different from an attack coming from an adjacent land-zone.
Ok you need to bring Transport and can have shore bombardment with Cruisers and BBs, but everything else is as normal.

Making a little step at a time, do you think that introducing this HR, it will better represent the difficult time of the invaders by sea without too much compromising the balance (since it is already a task to land in Europe for Allies.)?

During the first round of an amphibious assault, all Artillery units rolls are considered preemptive @2 instead of regular.
In addition, 1 Infantry (and only 1) can also get a preemptive roll @2.
During the rest of the round all other surviving attacking units and the rest of the defending units get a regular rolls.

P.S. It is inspired by the discussion in the 1914 Thread but the 1914 rule is clearly different because the Artillery units get a full preemptive strike and can roll again during the regular combat.

[Razor]

I love pure and simple rules, so no additional infantry in my HR.

the way I see it, landings can be resolved in two ways

Round 1. The attackers are debarking from ships, and swim ashore to establish a beachhead. And they cant roll dice when swimming. Only Battleships and Cruisers that do Shore Bombardment roll dice, and this may feel like preemptive if other units than artillery are taken as casualties. Attackers from adjacent territory don’t participate in this round.
Defending artillery roll D2, since this is the only unit with range to hit invaders in boats. Infantry rifles don’t have the range until the invaders hit the beach. Since the invaders did not roll dice in this round, it feels like preemptive fire, but it is not.

Round 2. All attacking land units roll at standard values, no matter if they come by ship, from adjacent territory or were airdropped.
All defending units roll as usual

The other suggestion is
Round 1. All units that are amphibious assaulting only hit on a 1. Except Marines and Paras, that hit on 2 or less. Battleship, Cruiser and Destroyer shore bombard boost one matching unit + 1. Attackers from adjacent territory attack as usual.
All defending units roll as usual.

Round 2. General combat as usual

[baron Münchhausen]

@Razor:

I love pure and simple rules, so no additional infantry in my HR.

the way I see it, landings can be resolved in two ways

Round 1. The attackers are debarking from ships, and swim ashore to establish a beachhead. And they cant roll dice when swimming. Only Battleships and Cruisers that do Shore Bombardment roll dice, and this may feel like preemptive if other units than artillery are taken as casualties. Attackers from adjacent territory don’t participate in this round.
Defending artillery roll D2, since this is the only unit with range to hit invaders in boats. Infantry rifles don’t have the range until the invaders hit the beach. Since the invaders did not roll dice in this round, it feels like preemptive fire, but it is not.

Round 2. All attacking land units roll at standard values, no matter if they come by ship, from adjacent territory or were airdropped.
All defending units roll as usual

The other suggestion is
Round 1. All units that are amphibious assaulting only hit on a 1. Except Marines and Paras, that hit on 2 or less. Battleship, Cruiser and Destroyer shore bombard boost one matching unit + 1. Attackers from adjacent territory attack as usual.
All defending units roll as usual.

Round 2. General combat as usual

I love pure and simple rules, so no additional infantry in my HR.

No problem.
There is always a dilemma between simplicity and increasing historical accuracy by adding just a little detail (which imply an additional rule, of course).

Since the invaders did not roll dice in this round, it feels like preemptive fire, but it is not.

Do you allow defending artillery fire again in “round 2”?
If it is the case, it is like 1914 and much more than a simple preemptive strike like subs surprise strike (since subs cannot fire twice in the same round.)

Treating amphibious this way will seriously compromise beachlanding in ETO. Because Allies will not be able make their first attack and will lost a lot of Inf against Fortress Europe.
In my HR, at least, there is only the other defending units which can fire during the remaining of the first round.

Example #1 (my HR): 3 Inf+3 Art vs 3 Inf + 3 Art.
3 Art (+1 Inf) can make a preemptive fire, (suppose 1.33 casualty on average) then 5 attackers and 2 remaining Infs rolls (.67 casuality on average).
Results: 2 attacking Inf casualties.
(In your more 1914 inspired HR)
3 Art can make a preemptive fire, 1 Inf casualty is removed.
Then 5 attackers rolls vs defending units: 3 Inf + 3 Art. 2 additionnals hits.
Results 3 attacking Inf casualties are removed.
At the end, with both method defender loose almost the same number of unit.
But, the attacker loose much more units with your Amphib HR.

The other suggestion is
Round 1. All units that are amphibious assaulting only hit on a 1.

Actually, OOB Inf get A1 when single. What do you do with them?

I’m guessing you want to discuss amphibious from a 1914 POV background with Inf attacking @2 on a reg basis.

I’m still open to discuss about it, but why not discuss all this in the specific Adapting A&A1914 rules for G40 thread?

[baron Münchhausen]

I’m still open to discuss about it, but why not discuss all this in the specific Adapting A&A1914 rules for G40  thread?

I suggest this because it will be easier to follow the development of your project. Instead of going back and forth in different threads which won’t necessarily be near from one another in the House Rule section.

I’m partisan  of a specific 1914 House Rule Forum because it can be quite confusing having two types of game mechanics and, in addition, talking about modification of mechanics and rules.

The starting point is very different when you talk from 1914 amphibious assault POV and OOB G40 amphibious assault POV.
Incoming grounds from adjacent territories need to be separated in 1914, for determining casulties but in G40 it is for determining Shore Bombardment capacity, etc. Armor units are not played the same way, etc.

[Razor]

I was not talking 1914 here

[baron Münchhausen]

@Razor:

I was not talking 1914 here

Then take your time to answer some of the my last questions. Here an example:

The other suggestion is
Round 1. All units that are amphibious assaulting only hit on a 1.

Actually, OOB Inf get A1 when single. What do you do with them?

I’m guessing you want to discuss amphibious from a 1914 POV background with Inf attacking @2 on a reg basis.

[Razor]

The headline is very clear on this being the G40 game, so infantry A1D2, Artillery A2D2, Tanks A3D3 etc etc. My suggestion is that all landing units attack on a 1 in the first round of combat. You are correct in noticing that the infantry will not be affected since it attack on a 1 in every case. My philosophy is that infantry fight in close combat, with short range, and the infantry fighting power will be almost the same no matter if he fight in a city, on a field, in a forest, in mountains, or he swim ashore doing an amphibious assault. The infantry will always be a man with rifle, walking on his feet.

Artillery and Tanks are another issue. An Artillery piece can not barrage an enemy position when it is still on the landing craft, it need to be towed across the beach before it can do something useful. And when a tank drive off the landing craft, it has the same fighting power as an infantry. The tanks A3 is when it do a Blitzkrieg attack, not when it is stuck on the beach as a helpless whale. But from the second round of combat, they are being organized in their usual combat formations, and then they attack on 2 and 3.

Yes, I of all people know so far too well that the defending artillery preemptive roll come from the 1914 game, indeed. But I love that rule, and want to see it in a HR.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Razor:

The headline is very clear on this being the G40 game, so infantry A1D2, Artillery A2D2, Tanks A3D3 etc etc. My suggestion is that all landing units attack on a 1 in the first round of combat. You are correct in noticing that the infantry will not be affected since it attack on a 1 in every case. My philosophy is that infantry fight in close combat, with short range, and the infantry fighting power will be almost the same no matter if he fight in a city, on a field, in a forest, in mountains, or he swim ashore doing an amphibious assault. The infantry will always be a man with rifle, walking on his feet.

Artillery and Tanks are another issue. An Artillery piece can not barrage an enemy position when it is still on the landing craft, it need to be towed across the beach before it can do something useful. And when a tank drive off the landing craft, it has the same fighting power as an infantry. The tanks A3 is when it do a Blitzkrieg attack, not when it is stuck on the beach as a helpless whale. But from the second round of combat, they are being organized in their usual combat formations, and then they attack on 2 and 3.

Yes, I of all people know so far too well that the defending artillery preemptive roll come from the 1914 game, indeed. But I love that rule, and want to see it in a HR.

That is sounds to me.
It makes sense.
At first glance, it is interesting to limit all Art and Arm to A1 during Amph. Ass.
Now come the other question: balance?

Another possibility if it seems too much, can be reduced by 1 all attackers but keep it to a minimum of 1. So, at least Armor can get A2.

Need more time to think about the outcome.
It is clear that the first round is extremely important on offence. Making ineffective many units which can not survive to the second rounds is a great defensive advantage.

so far too well that the defending artillery preemptive roll come from the 1914 game, indeed. But I love that rule, and want to see it in a HR.

I like this rule also, but think it need some restraint to be applied in a game which never take account of this aspect.
That’s why I limited to a preemptive strike (like subs). (Just a small twist vs OOB).
(About the defending Inf. Your explanation about the short range of Inf weapon can easily make the job. So forget about this exception.)

---

Combining both HR (all Art and Arm A1 & Art D2 preemptive strike) is clearly rising the difficulty of amphibious assault.
Even if each HR can work and are reflecting some interesting historical aspects, maybe both will be too much.
Unless you input some way to compensate the initial disadvantage of attacker…

[baron Münchhausen]

@Razor:

The headline is very clear on this being the G40 game, so infantry A1D2, Artillery A2D2, Tanks A3D3 etc etc.

Artillery and Tanks are another issue. An Artillery piece can not barrage an enemy position when it is still on the landing craft, it need to be towed across the beach before it can do something useful. And when a tank drive off the landing craft, it has the same fighting power as an infantry. The tanks A3 is when it do a Blitzkrieg attack, not when it is stuck on the beach as a helpless whale. But from the second round of combat, they are being organized in their usual combat formations, and then they attack on 2 and 3.

Yes, I of all people know so far too well that the defending artillery preemptive roll come from the 1914 game, indeed. But I love that rule, and want to see it in a HR.

At the strategical level of A&A games, I think giving A2 to Tank in Amph. Ass. is better.
Tank units can be a mix of some kind of amphibious motorized Armored vehicule when invading island and doing beachlanding.
Armor unit are somewhat more mobile than just Artillery, which need to be pulled somehow.
That explain why Art get only A1 on the initial assault.

So instead of saying all A1 for the first round of an Amph. Ass… Just say all -1A to a minimum of A1.

[Razor]

OK, all attacking units minus 1 point, to a minimum of A1, that may work. After all the Royal Marines Armor Support Group did make a successful amphibious assault with Centurion and Sherman tanks during D-day, the famous Hobbarts funnies. And the Americans that attacked with infantry only did take some heavy casualties.

Exactly how weak the Amphibious assault are, and how strong the defense are, depends on a lot of things.

HBG make Paratroopers, Marines and Landing Crafts that may strengthen the landing. But they also make Coastal Guns that may help the defender. Then you have the Shore bombardment, that in this game is far more stronger than in real life. Then you can use the 1914 rule and let aircrafts land in a newly taken territory, representing combat air patrol and air cover, like it were in the real war. Or take with US and land UK fighters next turn, but I prefer the 1914 rule.

It is important to me that the H. rules are simple, smooth, elegant and historical correct. Then, it will be the players decisions if they want to defend a coastline heavy, or vacate it and build up a strong counter attack force in the adjacent and interior territory.

[baron Münchhausen]

Combining both HR (all Art and Arm A1 & Art D2 preemptive strike) is clearly rising the difficulty of amphibious assault.
Even if each HR can work and are reflecting some interesting historical aspects, maybe both will be too much.
Unless you input some way to compensate the initial disadvantage of attacker…

Battleship, Cruiser and Destroyer shore bombard boost one matching unit + 1.

Maybe the later is the response to the former.

During the first round of an Amph. Ass.
Destroyer give +1A boost to any 1 ground unit.
Cruiser give +1A boost to any 1 ground unit, in addition to the shore bombardment.
Battleship give +1A, to any 2 ground units, in addition to the shore bombardment.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Razor:

OK, all attacking units minus 1 point, to a minimum of A1, that may work. After all the Royal Marines Armor Support Group did make a successful amphibious assault with Centurion and Sherman tanks during D-day, the famous Hobbarts funnies. And the Americans that attacked with infantry only did take some heavy casualties.

Exactly how weak the Amphibious assault are, and how strong the defense are, depends on a lot of things.

HBG make Paratroopers, Marines and Landing Crafts that may strengthen the landing. But they also make Coastal Guns that may help the defender. Then you have the Shore bombardment, that in this game is far more stronger than in real life. Then you can use the 1914 rule and let aircrafts land in a newly taken territory, representing combat air patrol and air cover, like it were in the real war. Or take with US and land UK fighters next turn, but I prefer the 1914 rule.

It is important to me that the H. rules are simple, smooth, elegant and historical correct. Then, it will be the players decisions if they want to defend a coastline heavy, or vacate it and build up a strong counter attack force in the adjacent and interior territory.

That could be much easily simulated by the weak or strong presence of Artillery units.
Instead of adding some “bunkers unit” for Atlantic Walls, a player could just adds a lot of Art unit along the Western European coast.

In itself Art worth more on the offensive with Inf. 7 IPCs giving 4 attack points.
But this added element of preemptive Art strike, it is a way to amplify the defensive value of Art. unit.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Razor:

OK, all attacking units minus 1 point, to a minimum of A1, that may work.

**After all the Royal Marines Armor Support Group did make a successful amphibious assault with Centurion and Sherman tanks during D-day, the famous Hobbarts funnies.

And the Americans that attacked with infantry only did take some heavy casualties.**

Good historical reference from ETO.
I don’t have any from PTO, but I’m sure Pacific Marines corps had some motorized landings crafts.
And could have done better if such a similar D-Day task had arisen in Japanese Islands campaign.

[Razor]

@Baron:

During the first round of an Amph. Ass.
Destroyer give +1A boost to any 1 ground unit.
Cruiser give +1A boost to any 1 ground unit, in addition to the shore bombardment.
Battleship give +1A, to any 2 ground units, in addition to the shore bombardment.

I like this, but think that shore bombardment should boost infantry only. Shore bombardment are naval artillery, and it makes no sense to let artillery boost artillery. No matter how heavy barrage or many shells, they shoot holes in the air unless the suppressing barrage are followed up by infantry charge. And only Tacs should be able to boost tanks.

I think all warships should Shore bombard on A2, and boost a inf unit +1.
A naval shell is designed to sink ships and are different from an artillery shell that is designed to kill men. During the attack on Narvik in 1940, HMS Warspite and several destroyers shore bombarded the city of Bjerkvik for hours and only 9 civilians died, and no German defenders. They used the wrong type of shells.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Razor:

@Baron:

During the first round of an Amph. Ass.
Destroyer give +1A boost to any 1 ground unit.
Cruiser give +1A boost to any 1 ground unit, in addition to the shore bombardment.
Battleship give +1A, to any 2 ground units, in addition to the shore bombardment.

I like this, but think that shore bombardment should boost infantry only. Shore bombardment are naval artillery, and it makes no sense to let artillery boost artillery. No matter how heavy barrage or many shells, they shoot holes in the air unless the suppressing barrage are followed up by infantry charge. And only Tacs should be able to boost tanks.

I think all warships should Shore bombard on A2, and boost a inf unit +1.
A naval shell is designed to sink ships and are different from an artillery shell that is designed to kill men. During the attack on Narvik in 1940, HMS Warspite and several destroyers shore bombarded the city of Bjerkvik for hours and only 9 civilians died, and no German defenders. They used the wrong type of shells.

I will not name it shore bombardment, maybe Supporting debarkment or something else.
Let the Shore bombardment be as it is for Cruiser and Battleship.

You said, they don’t have the good ammunition. But maybe some (US) BBs did, once they see that their main role was to support marines debarkment? IDK.

You can certainly HR all shore bombardment @2 but you will cripple the costly BB.
Do you have something else to give some value to BB? Maybe as I suggested below.
(I also suggested elsewhere to give 2 rounds of fire to BB: so 2 rounds @2, because I think BB guns have a greater range than cruiser guns.)

Probably more interesting to give:
During the first round of an Amph. Ass.
Destroyer give +1A boost to 1 Infantry unit.
Cruiser give +1A boost to 1 Infantry unit, in addition to the shore bombardment.
Battleship give +1A, to up to 2 Infantry units, in addition to the shore bombardment.

[toblerone77]

The only thing I would interject upon is that IF the goal is to move closer to historical accuracy, you must remember the that scale and scope of the game does not represent just one battle, but a macroscopic representation of a campaign of a specified region. In other words a battle on the board for one territory represents a much bigger campaign on a relatively “large” section of the world. However the idea could be very fun. I particularly find the aspect of dissecting the battle mechanic via round compelling.

[Imperious Leader]

The map should be marked for possible landing sites. It is not a fact that major landings could take place “anywhere”.

First, the attacker should only be able to attack with infantry only on the first round ( and air units). This would be rolled after SB is performed

Second, Defending Infantry and Artillery should fire preemptively ( loses taken first do not fire in subsequent rounds)

Third, all remaining attacking units roll, then remaining

The attacker should be able to retreat, however all mech units are converted into infantry ( they leave the beaches with equipment…ala Dunkirk)

This is all in AARHE 2004 ( look it up for other ideas)

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

The map should be marked for possible landing sites. It is not a fact that major landings could take place “anywhere”.

First, the attacker should only be able to attack with infantry only on the first round ( and air units). This would be rolled after SB is performed

Second, Defending Infantry and Artillery should fire preemptively ( loses taken first do not fire in subsequent rounds)

Third, all remaining attacking units roll, then remaining

The attacker should be able to retreat, however all mech units are converted into infantry ( they leave the beaches with equipment…ala Dunkirk)

This is all in AARHE 2004 ( look it up for other ideas)

Thanks IL for your ideas. I’ve just take a look on the AARHE about ASW.

Your four ideas are interesting to compare with what has been develop 'till now.

And Toblerone77 post is just the way I look upon all your suggestions:
@toblerone77:

The only thing I would interject upon is that IF the goal is to move closer to historical accuracy, you must remember that the scale and scope of the game does not represent just one battle, but a macroscopic representation of a campaign of a specified region. In other words a battle on the board for one territory represents a much bigger campaign on a relatively “large” section of the world. However the idea could be very fun. I particularly find the aspect of dissecting the battle mechanic via round compelling.

I can say that your ideas are quite nearer a tactical perspective than the macroscopic representation implied in such a strategic game.

In addition, some of your changes can probably affect the balance to be much more in favour of the defensive side of the amphibious assault, something which may implies some kind of modification to the start-up board.

I cannot go that far, even if the steps you proposed give a better picture of the historical hardiness of any amphibious assault.

So, before a detail exam of all your points, I will take another look to AARHE2004 on amph. assault, nonetheless I will kept in mind the advice of Toblerone77 and if I introduce any mods this HR, it will be at the strategic level, not tactical.

Thanks again.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

The map should be marked for possible landing sites. It is not a fact that major landings could take place “anywhere”.
True but it is too much zoom-in tactical level geography.
Let’s suppose the amphibious assault is made in an appropriate places.
The bad or good luck of the first roll of dices in combat is making for a good or bad landing place.

First, the attacker should only be able to attack with infantry only on the first round ( and air units). This would be rolled after SB is performed.
AAA fire then Shore Bombardment are the first two steps. At a tactical level, artillery and armor have a bad moment to pass through during landing phase. The issue is to figure it all at strategical level and keep balance.
I suggested this penalty can be enough:
instead of saying all A1 for the first round of an Amph. Assault
Just say all attacking ground units get -1A to a minimum of A1, for the first round.
Hence, Artillery get A1.
But, at least Armor can get A2.
And according to this HR, even an Inf getting A2 for being paired with Art is reduced to A1.  
But, at a strategical level, the SB can give a little support to Infantry unit trying to land.
That’s why:

During the first round of an Amph. Ass.
Destroyer, on a 1:1 basis, give +1A boost to 1 Infantry unit.
Cruiser,  on a 1:1 basis, give +1A boost to 1 Infantry unit, in addition to the shore bombardment.
Battleship, on a 1:2 basis, give +1A, to up to 2 Infantry units, in addition to the shore bombardment.

So the warships heavy guns can make a difference (even Destroyer’s one), on landing round.

Second, Defending Infantry and Artillery should fire preemptively ( loses taken first do not fire in subsequent rounds)
This is a tough one, do we give it to Artillery unit only or to both units?
Here I followed Razor and also you, at the strategical level, and for balance (too much Inf vs Art), and for simplicity and also because 1914 give it only to Artillery unit. And it will be a weaker ones however:
All Artillery units get a preemptive strike (like subs) against incoming units.

Third, all remaining attacking units roll, then remaining

The attacker should be able to retreat, however all mech units are converted into infantry ( they leave the beaches with equipment…ala Dunkirk)
That one is new. It is alien to A&A system to convert 1 unit into another.
However, a retreat possibility could be interesting…
But usually the better units will survived last. This means it will probably be armor or artillery…

Instead, it can be something like this:
If amphibious assault units needs to retreat (at the beginning of the round), attacker must loose 1 Armor unit or 1 Art unit before any other 1 casualty.
Basically, attacker must loose 1 additional ground unit (the costlier and valuable one), and this unit cannot fire, then return the surviving units on landing barge (transports).
On most occasion this will mean 1 armor unit, an A3D3, 6 IPCs unit.

Thanks for this idea about amphibious assault retreat.

It can even more create an incentive for the defender, to throw an air/naval assault on transports to get ride of the surviving retreating units. Rarely see, ground troops going into the bottom of the ocean with transports units.