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Paris Riots
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I really do hope they overcome this quickly and with as little violence as possible.
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I also think that several of the previous posters probably overemphasize the Muslim connection and underemphasize the economic.Thanks SUD.
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honestly falk, stop crusading. you insult the US as much, if not more so, than anyone who criticizes france/germany/anywhere else. personal insults detract from an argument, and they ruin the board for everyone. flaming stupidity, like “BURN FRANCE BURN”, only detracts from his credibility. you have different opinions from him. fine. there is a good chance hes just trolling. if not, fine. let him think that. its not important to have everyone believe like you, and hate the United States. just because your attacks are more passive-agressive and subtle, and his was more blatant and open, means nothing.
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A small point, but:
@Rune:
After all, in terms of contribution to the national debt, Red states are generally in the hole while Blue ones are in the black.
Dude, Blue states contain all the big cities. Big cities tend to generate more revenue thus more tax dollars. This is the only reason why the blue states would contribute more to the national debt. It has nothing to do with conservative or liberal politics, just demographics.
No, you misunderstand. Â Contribution to the national debt is calculated by subtracting the amount taken out from the amount put in. Â It doesn’t matter if you have demographically more people, if you have more debtors and failing businesses per capita, you’ll still be in the red.
IL, I’m not sure if Rune Blade really distinguishes between Socialist and Social Democratic parties. Â But, then we can ask him here, huh?
By the way, CC, I know Norris. Â She did some research for us a little while back. Â Very nice lady, and you’re right, her empiricism is top-notch. Â Not my particular flavor of political science, but very interesting nevertheless.
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Looks like the situation is finally improving, although certainly not yet good:
Hopefully this will finally die down now as seems to be happening.Â
But what can be done in France to prevent this from happening again? What lessons can be learned that we can apply here in the US (or in Canada, UK , etc. as well) so that this doesn’t happen elsewhere?Â
The answers to these questions really hinge on the main point of WHY this happened. Is it because the immigrants are mistreated or discriminated against (see the high unemployment)? Is it because they don’t like the French (considering themselves something different, perhaps Algerian or even Muslem :-o )? Is it some bad combination of these factors and perhaps other factors?
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…“BURN FRANCE BURN”… fine. let him think that.
Qui tacet, consentiere videtur.
And you even defend him.
And when did i “crusade” against the US the last time?
How much nationalistic BS did i have to suffer before and after that?@221B:
The answers to these questions really hinge on the main point of WHY this happened. Is it because the immigrants are mistreated or discriminated against (see the high unemployment)? Is it because they don’t like the French (considering themselves something different, perhaps Algerian or even Muslem :-o )? Is it some bad combination of these factors and perhaps other factors?
It seems like they consider themselves as very french, and just call for the rights than all Frenchmen have. That is, getting a job regardless of your name and where you were brought up and not being called scum. If you hear them talking, they show a lot of french republican spirit, with a great knowledge of french history.
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Falk,
Interesting to hear they consider themselves French - not what seems to be reported in the media here, although I have not seen or heard much about this point at all (granted that I haven’t had time lately to really look into what is happening). This makes it hard for me to form a considered opinion on the matter.
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You can read it “between the lines” in these articles:
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,383858,00.html
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,383910,00.html
and it is obvious in this arctivle, unfortunately i didn’t find a translation into english:
http://www.zeit.de/2005/46/Paris_Krawalleif you speak french, then you can look up the lyrics of the rappers “Psy4 de la rime”, coming from a Marseille suburb similar to the ones near Paris … they do give some idea what the rioters feel like
http://www.allparoles.com/psy4.htm -
@221B:
Hopefully this will finally die down now as seems to be happening.Â
Agreed. I would hate to be living through this. I am amazed at attitudes of some fellow board members. If one of us said “drown New Orleans drown!” i would be outraged. I really hope that the kind of misfortune wished upon others is visited upon those sadists enjoying this tragedy.
But what can be done in France to prevent this from happening again? What lessons can be learned that we can apply here in the US (or in Canada, UK , etc. as well) so that this doesn’t happen elsewhere?Â
The answers to these questions really hinge on the main point of WHY this happened. Is it because the immigrants are mistreated or discriminated against (see the high unemployment)? Is it because they don’t like the French (considering themselves something different, perhaps Algerian or even MusleMuslim )? Is it some bad combination of these factors and perhaps other factors?
Excellent question 221b.
One answer is “community”. We are getting further from community throughout the world - and it seems that the more industrialized nations are in more danger than those that are developing. My hometown of Winnipeg is nearly 700 000 people, however we have a “small town mentality”. Everyone seems to be connected to everyone else in some respect and i am reminded daily of just how small this city is. We have programs designed to enhance community spirit, and very active social programs designed to help immigrants to integrate well.
Having said this, we do have our share of problems - aboriginal and asian gangs which have not integrated well for a number of reasons i could elaborate on later. These operate outside the concept of community IMO and cause no end of problems.
Perhaps religion is more a key factor than we wish to consider? The places in my province where a large proportion of the populace attends sunday morning services have a very low incidence of this kind of problem. Is it possible that increasing secularism with decreasing communal spirit combine to enhance the social isolation and desperation people are feeling? Naturally “Christian” and “Muslim” services that promote violence and segregation rather than peace and helping out one’s fellow humans are not so useful . . . .Oh yeah - and Imp-y - quite funny. Of course you (as the whole world seems to) left out the Canadians.
"Canada increased it’s level of alert from “shear boredom” to “increasing taxes”. Paul Martin noted that this is something that the Canadian people want, particularly as “they do not wish an election at this time”. This is only two steps away from “increase diplomatic pressure” and “call a national inquiry”.
I grant - it’s not funny as at times it is so true it hurts. -
Yeah, I really can’t imagine what it is like to be living in these communities while this is going on. The closest thing I can relate to would be power outages, ice storms, or the tornados when I was growing up in Missouri - which is nothing in comparison.
I wouldn’t wish these on our shortsighted, selfcentered friends here on this board - I’d rather they mature enough to realize this is a real tragedy.
Community is a great answer to the WHY question! Its not an easy thing to do considering the barriers of location, economics, differing culture, and even differing languages. It is possible however - for example look at the radical changes in the US with regards to the racial segregation of the 1860’s to 1960’s and the great changes in the last 40 years with race relations. The fact that this isn’t happening in the US (there are nearly as many muslems here as there are in France) despite the Iraq war may be due in part because of our desegregation and equal opportunity efforts. Even with 5 million muslems in the US, AQ had to import bombers from Saudi Arabia for 911 (yeah, I know there were a few Americans in AQ - but not many considering the population of Saudi Arabia isn’t much bigger than this). I think it will take a great commitment on the part of French society (similar to the EO and discrimination laws the US enacted) to really solve the root of the problem.
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Oh yeah - and Imp-y - quite funny. Of course you (as the whole world seems to) left out the Canadians.
I thought the French and Canadians were the same thing… ooops my bad!! :? :-D
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I keep thinking of the movie “Natural Born Killers”. At one point the 2 sociopaths befriend an Indian. The indian tells a story about a woman who found a snake frozen in ice. She thaws the ice, and nurses the snake back to health. Than the snake bites her, and she yells out “how could you do this after all I have done for you!” The reply from the snake was “bitch, you knew I was a snake!”
Its been at least 7 or 8 years since I seen the movie. So some of what I said may not be percise. But that was the jist of it.
I don’t fear or hate muslims in this country. There may be some terrorist cells, but they are the exception. I am not Muslim, but I don’t think for a second that the same kind of hate mongering that is happening in Eurupe happens here.
Look at france, really think about it. They love to be “better than you”. That is part of their mentality. American, British, German, Italian (even muslim) they think that they are more “evolved” than everyone else, and we are all ignorant savages. Part of the thinking is the socialist utopia. Which may seem nice on paper, (we don’t care about where you come from) but the reality is they care more than almost anyone else. They look down on people. The arabs and africans they welcomed into their country decades ago was a sign of their “evolvedness”. But when it came time for some real social equality, “screw them…”
The rioters may have french citizenship, but they are not French. Neither side has tried to integrate because the french are arogant, and the rioters are brainwashed.
For the most part in the US our muslims are integrated. The only recruiting place for muslim nuts are our prisons. In France it is the local mosque (sp?).
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@Imperious:
(social democrat…)
Britain
France
Germany
Sweden
Italy
Finland
Norway
Denmark
Netherlands
Belgium
SpainYeah… seems like some really unsuccessful countries to me.
The distribution of the United States actually makes the most wealthy country in the world look like an Agrarian nation in terms of level of human security. I’d quote you the line from the excellent book Sacred and Secular, by Norris and Inglehart (probably the two best empircal political scientists in the world).
He is speaking about socialist nations. Only France and Micheal Moore fits the bill as a true Socialist nation. Spain is getting close, while the others have some policies but are really “mixed economies”.And BTW a line from a book does not make something “the truth” in spite of sales to Berkely students or Rush Limbaughs book store.
To correct you, socialism can work. It “worked” in Nazi Germany. The economy got better blah blah blah. I won’t go into a huge history lesson over why the nazis were wrong, because anyone posting on an axis and allies board should know that. But what people like falk equate socialism to a welfare state, and that does not work.
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Sorry, I stopped reading at that point.
Sorry, I also stopped reading after this point as well, Mary. Victory was won a while ago with you.
F_alk, I don’t even bother responding to your posts anymore. It is not worth my time.
I am a firm believer in my philosophy. Whether you agree with it or not is not my concern. What I will say to all of this is this: When a great nation such as the United States will stand up for anyone in need and never ask for a thing in return except friendship and then have those so-called friends (i.e. France) to stab us in the back every chance they get because of their arrogant nature, yeah, I’m going to curse out at France. Especially France.
Look what those idiots in the French press said about America after Katrina hit. It was all a bunch of celebratory banter congratulating themselves on what a find nation they have and that they don’t have the problems America has while enjoying the misery of the citizens of New Orleans. Now all of a sudden, Muslim terrorists are burning schools, buildings, cars, property in over 300 cities with no end in site thanks to a weak-kneed, liberal pandering, social inept French governemtn under Chirac.
Yes, Now France gets theirs! Thousands of US servicemen died to liberate that country and they have not paid one whit in return.
So yes, I say with much glee……“BURN FRANCE BURN”…and I will smile when I do it, especiallly if it makes the libs angry.
Rune Blade
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To correct you, socialism can work. It “worked” in Nazi Germany. The economy got better blah blah blah. I won’t go into a huge history lesson over why the nazis were wrong, because anyone posting on an axis and allies board should know that. But what people like falk equate socialism to a welfare state, and that does not work.
I think that if history serves me correctly that even France was more productive as a country while under Nazi occupation. Hmmmm…
Rune Blade
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"So yes, I say with much glee……“BURN FRANCE BURN”…and I will smile when I do it, especiallly if it makes the libs angry.
Rune Blade"
"I think that if history serves me correctly that even France was more productive as a country while under Nazi occupation. Hmmmm…
Rune Blade"
This is much worse than what Falk got a warning about. Do we really need this type of trolling in the forum?
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@cystic:
One answer is “community”. We are getting further from community throughout the world - and it seems that the more industrialized nations are in more danger than those that are developing. My hometown of Winnipeg is nearly 700 000 people, however we have a “small town mentality”.
Yes and No. The suburbs that are rioting are very communal. They are just not allowed to participate in France’s everyday life and wealth.
I agree though that the invasion of the market into areas where it has nothing to do is dangerous and IMO has already overstepped many lines.Perhaps religion is more a key factor than we wish to consider? The places in my province where a large proportion of the populace attends sunday morning services have a very low incidence of this kind of problem. Is it possible that increasing secularism with decreasing communal spirit combine to enhance the social isolation and desperation people are feeling?
Religion “helps”, probably the main reason why Marx called it “opium for the people”. Yet, i don’t think it explains the riots. It explains why “the bearded” can calm down the protests. But to say “more religion would help” might be very counterproductive, as the “More religion” offered there is only offered by muslim fuindamentalists. The secularised societey has to find other ways to tackle this problems, and it has to change in itself, by letting actions follow the words of “Egalite” and be equal to the people. That is something where the US is ahead of us, when many questions are illegal in your job interview and on application.
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This is much worse than what Falk got a warning about. Do we really need this type of trolling in the forum?
Mary, Mary, Mary, If you don’t like what you read, just turn the page. :roll:
Rune Blade
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The kind of shit you post gives us all a black eye. If we allow that, what do we say if some nutjob comes on posting “DIE, Marines, DIE!” everytime we lose a guy over in Iraq?
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Okay, lets get back on topic.
The riots appear to calming down.
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I think Germany will have similiar problems, just not as bad. And if push really came to shove they could tell the turks there to get the hell out. Neither the original people who came to germany were made citizens nor their children are citizens. If this kind of insane crap goes on they could theoreticaly find themselves on a boat back to Turkey ((and REAL poverty) at least as of 5 years ago according to my old college prof.)
What is happening in Eurupe (France specificaly) is the exact reason that GWB and anyone who agrees with an amnesty program should be politicaly crucified. No work program what so ever should be instated. There is no such thing as “cheap labor”. The criminals who broke the law getting into this country illegaly have children here that won’t be content with min. wage the way their parents are. They will grow up bitter and resenting the US and you will see much of the same here as is going on in France.
Either you come to this country legaly or you get out. However, anyone found coming in illegaly should have to serve a year hard labor than deported so as to have a detterant to people trying over and over again. The law of being an American citizen just for being born here should be removed, and anyone who claims citizenship based off that have that citizenship removed. You are from the country that your parents were citizens of.
This myth of “they do work that Americans will not do” is just that - myth. They do work that Americans won’t do for crap wages. That is the truth. These jobs must get done, and w/o the criminals doing them companies will be forced to raise the wages of these jobs to attract AMERICANS to do them. Criminals doing the jobs pay higher profits for the companies, and they in turn influence the government to do nothing.
I welcome anyone who comes to this country legaly. Immigrants made this country great. But people crossing our borders illegaly should not be given one iota of consideration. If they are hit by a car they should recieve no help, just a hertz to get the body off the road. Companies who hire illegals should have their CEOs who made the decision serve hard time (not a white collar jail). Politicians who support aiding the law breakers in ways like giving the licenses, and being against common sense approaches like making forging documents harder - should be run out of office (and some jail time).
If these things had been done in Eurupe than they would not have the problem they have now. If we don’t do these things now you can expect the same thing here in a decade or 2 with Mexicans complaining that the South West is really theirs.
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