AARe Tech Question

[Aretaku]

In AARe, can Combined Arms BBs fire as AA guns on both offense and defense, or is it strictly a defensive capability?

–-

5. Combined Arms
-Your DDs can now conduct bombardment at 3 during an amphibious assault
-Enemy SUBs’ DD-to-detect values increase by 1
-Your BBs now fire as AAGuns do. During any Combat Move phase where an enemy air unit enters or flies over a territory containing a BB, the BB rolls 1 die at 1 for each attacking air unit (first cycle of combat only). Casualties are removed IMMEDIATELY in Opening Fire. Only 1BB/ territory may fire. BBs still get their regular roll during the Defending Units Fire Phase.

–-

The Green underlined portions seem to suggest that the technology can be used offensively, while the Red portions suggest that it is defensive only.

So…  :?

[axis_roll]

I can understand the source of your confusion.  I look at the very first sentence of the third bullet point:

@A&ARe:

Your BBs now fire as AA Guns do

AA guns do not fire in combat (unless you have rockets… no BB’s can NOT become the rockets of the sea :)  )

[Crazy Ivan]

:-o
They should have an advanced tech that allows the BB to be a rocket launching platform too. That would be way cool  :-D.

[Jennifer]

Instead of a new thread, I’ll just ask another question, if’n ya all don’t mind.

If you attack a sea zone containing a defending submarine and you FAIL to detect it with any of your present destroyers AND the defender opts to submerge immediately after firing in Opening Fire phase.  Then the attacker wins and has his or her ships stuck in the sea zone.  When it comes time for the submarine to move, does it get to move out of combat without giving the enemy ships present a chance to detect it again?

For example:

Japan hits SZ 52 on J1 with a Battleship, Carrier, 3 Fighters, Bomber, Destroyer and Submarine.  Japan rolls a 5 on the detection, failing to find the American submarine.  The American Submarine Captain, not being suicidal, says “screw this!” and dives for the bottom of the harbor.

Japan now has a destroyer + aircraft present in SZ 52 which happens to be where America’s submarine is.  Can America move the submarine out undetected, or do the defending boats get to try and detect it and engage?

Reason I ask is because you cannot just sail a submarine under a destroyer to engage units behind it without giving the destroyer a chance to detect you.  So I think that the submarine in this case should have to withstand another detection attempt before it can escape to freedom in SZ 55 or whereever it wants to go.

[Crazy Ivan]

:roll:
Just let them drift out with the current , it’s a big sea zone after all.  :wink:

[trihero]

Japan now has a destroyer + aircraft present in SZ 52 which happens to be where America’s submarine is.  Can America move the submarine out undetected, or do the defending boats get to try and detect it and engage?

Reason I ask is because you cannot just sail a submarine under a destroyer to engage units behind it without giving the destroyer a chance to detect you.  So I think that the submarine in this case should have to withstand another detection attempt before it can escape to freedom in SZ 55 or whereever it wants to go.

My answer is yes the sub can run away. It is not attempting to bypass the destroyer; i.e. it is not trying to sail under it. Its combat move can simply be to run away, like any other naval ship. Any other ship can simply run away from a situation like that without having to go through detection.

From LHTR 2.0

At the beginning of the combat move phase you may already have sea units in spaces containing
enemy units that were there at the start of your turn.
This situation will require you to do one of the following:
 Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat;
 Leave the sea zone, load units if desired, and conduct combat elsewhere;
 Leave the sea zone to load units and return to the same sea zone to conduct combat;
 Or, simply leave the sea zone and conduct no combat other than sailing out of harm’s way.

You only roll detection if the sub is actually engaging them in combat, but it is not doing so. A destroyer does not prevent the sub from moving away; it would only do so if the sub enters that seazone. It starts in that seazone, it does not enter it. Its combat move is like any other naval unit (all naval units are already detected after all).

[Aretaku]

@axis_roll:

I can understand the source of your confusion.  I look at the very first sentence of the third bullet point:

@A&ARe:

Your BBs now fire as AA Guns do

AA guns do not fire in combat (unless you have rockets… no BB’s can NOT become the rockets of the sea :)  )

I’m not looking to use them as rockets…I want to know if my BBs get to shoot at the planes on my enemies carrier if I attack him, instead of him attacking me.

Also…

http://boards.avalonhill.com/showpost.php?p=192866&postcount=8

LAND COMBAT SEQUENCE

1. Place Units on Battle Board
2. Conduct Opening Fire
2a. Roll for any FTR Interceptors (Jet Fighters) - 1st cycle only
-For SBR and Rocket attacks only. FTRs may still defend against Regular attacks
-Roll one die/intercepting FTR. Casualties are removed IMMEDIATELY if hit
2b. Roll for AAGuns - 1st cycle only
-FTRs, and BMBRs are all rolled separately and removed IMMEDIATELY if hit
2c. Roll for Bombardment (BBs and Combined Arms DDs) - 1st cycle only
-Casualties are removed at the end of Opening Fire.
2d. Roll for any German 88s - 1st cycle only
-Any attacking Ger 88 RTL roll 1 die @3
-Casualties are removed at the end of Opening Fire
3. Remove Opening Fire Casualties
-Remove all Bombardment and German 88 casualties
4. Attacking Units Fire
5. Defending Units Fire
6. Remove Casualties
7. Press Attack or Retreat
8. Capture Territory

NAVAL COMBAT SEQUENCE

1. Place Units on Battle Board
1a. Declare targets for any Kamis or Kaitens - 1st cycle only
1b. Attempt Sub Detection - 1st cycle only
-Each SUB is assigned a DD-to-detect value, starting with a baseline of 3, and taking into account positive modifiers (AIR,LRA,CA) which increase the DD-to-detect value of all SUBs and negative modifiers (SS, Kaitens) which decrease the DD-to-detect value of only certain SUBs. When groups of DDs have different positive modifiers they should be rolled separately. When groups of SUBs have different negative modifiers, it becomes possible that the higher DD-to-detect value group is detected, but not the lower DD-to-detect value group.
-Roll 1 die for each attacking DD, a roll of the DD-to-detect value or less detects ALL defending SUBs requiring that DD-to-detect value
-Roll 1 die for each defending DD, a roll of the DD-to-detect value or less detects ALL attacking SUBs requiring that DD-to-detect value
2. Conduct Opening Fire
2a. Roll for any FTR Interceptors (Jet Fighters) - 1st cycle only
-For Kami attacks only. FTRs may still defend against Regular attacks
-Roll one die/intercepting FTR. Casualties (Kamis) are removed IMMEDIATELY if hit
2b. Combined Arms BBs - 1st cycle only
-Kamis, FTRs and BMBRs are all rolled separately and removed IMMEDIATELY if hit
2c. Roll for Coastal Defense (Atlantic Wall) - 1st cycle only
-A single Ger RTL in WEur rolls 1 die @ 2 (3 with Ger 88s)
-Casualties are removed at the end of Opening Fire
2d. Roll for Kaitens - 1st cycle only
-Attacking Kaitens roll 1 die @ 3 (4 with Super Subs)
-Kaitens and casualties are removed at the end of Opening Fire
2e. Roll for Kamis - 1st cycle only
-Attacking Kamis roll 1 die @ 4
-Kamis and casualties are removed at the end of Opening Fire
2f. Roll for Regular SUBs (ie. non-Kaiten)
-Attacking SUBs roll 1 die @ 2 (3 with Super Subs)
-Defending SUBs roll 1 die @ 2
-Casualties are removed as per Step 3
3. Remove Opening Fire Casualties
-Remove all Kaitens and their casualties (regardless of whether Kaitens were detected or not)
-Remove all Kamis and their casualties
-If Attacking SUBs were “Undetected”, remove all their casualties during this step(enemy DD does not cancel this). If “Detected”, their casualties return fire and are removed in step 6.
-If Defending SUBs were “Undetected”, remove all their casualties during this step(enemy DD does not cancel this). If “Detected”, their casualties return fire and are removed in step 6.
3a. “Undetected” SUBs may submerge - 1st cycle only
-Any “Undetected” SUBs not electing to submerge are considered “Detected” at this point
-Combat resumes as per normal rules from here on out
4. Attacking Units Fire
5. Defending Units Fire
6. Remove Casualties
7. Press Attack or Retreat
-SUBs may submerge again here, but since they’re now all “Detected”, enemy DDs can cancel this. As per regular rules, SUBs may also retreat with the rest of your naval vessels.
8. Occupy SZ

…your statement that AA guns do not fire in combat confuses me greatly.  :?

[axis_roll]

@axis_roll:

I can understand the source of your confusion.  I look at the very first sentence of the third bullet point:

@A&ARe:

Your BBs now fire as AA Guns do

AA guns do not fire as part of an attacking “group”  AAA guns are defensive only

I should have left it at that.

AA guns do not fire on offense.

So the answer is to your question is no, the AAA capability of a BB from combined arms does not occur when the BB is attacking.

I was trying to mention the exception and confused you, my apologies.

[Jennifer]

But if the Submarine in SZ 52 decides to “run away” from the Japanese fleet to engage the Japanese fleet in SZ 60, that’s going under the destroyer present for sure.  After all, the Japanese KNOW there’s a submarine present in their area, it FIRED at them when they invaded.  So I don’t think they’re just going to turn off their sonar and keep their planes on the decks of their carriers, either.

Honestly, my opinion is that the submarine(s) gets another free shot, the defending destroyer(s) get to try to detect him/them and if it survives that, then it may retreat one sea zone. (Or it can be used in conjunction with invading naval and air forces.)

[trihero]

Honestly, my opinion is that the submarine(s) gets another free shot, the defending destroyer(s) get to try to detect him/them and if it survives that, then it may retreat one sea zone. (Or it can be used in conjunction with invading naval and air forces.)

But if you think this way, then you are not just arguing subs running away, you are arguing every single naval unit running away. If for instance you have a destroyer that starts in the same zone as an enemy battleship, do you think each side should have a free shot as well? Why not, they are both already detected anyways?

I’m just going straight by LHTR, your combat move may simply be to run away, which does not incur combat. You have to end your combat move in a contested zone in order for there to be combat, do you agree? The only way in which your scenario works is if the sub sits there. You do not get to fire just because you think it is nice. The sub is not attempting to sail under the destroyer any more than a destroyer is trying to sail under a battleship. Subs can make normal movement like a normal naval unit, it just has a special condition that nothing except destroyers can stop it moving if the sub makes a combat move into it. Every other naval unit is immediately stopped when it encounters another surfaced naval unit.

Because the sub is not making a combat move into the seazone, there is no stopping and no combat.

[Jennifer]

But this is AARe not LHTR.

I could maybe see it if the submarine was prevented from attacking another sea zone and was allowed to retreat to safety only or remain in the sea zone to engage with reinforcements.  But even then, if it reengages, then the defender would get a chance to detect it.  If the submarine was to sail under the destroyer, starting from a different sea zone and going through, then you’d get a chance to detect it.

So why should the submarine be allowed to move from SZ 52 to SZ 60 (in the case of my example) to attack more units when a destroyer is present in SZ 52?  We certainly wouldn’t allow a submarine from SZ 55 to attack in SZ 45 if an enemy destroyer was present in SZ 52 without at least giving the destroyer a chance to detect the submarine.

[trihero]

But this is AARe not LHTR.

But AARE clearly defers to LHTR if you read the rules.

So why should the submarine be allowed to move from SZ 52 to SZ 60 (in the case of my example) to attack more units when a destroyer is present in SZ 52?  We certainly wouldn’t allow a submarine from SZ 55 to attack in SZ 45 if an enemy destroyer was present in SZ 52 without at least giving the destroyer a chance to detect the submarine.

I already told you why.

First, there is the logical contradiction - why do you pick on subs? For instance, a destroyer would be stopped by another destroyer if it ran into it along the way, so if there is a destroyer starting in an enemy zone, can it not run away either without fighting?

Second, LHTR clearly states that you can make a combat move out of a seazone which is enemy occupied at the beginning of your turn. You only resolve combat (i.e. roll dice and attack/defend) if your combat move ends in a contested area (or aa guns along the way, but that is irrelevant). Since the sub’s combat move does not end in a contested area, then there is no resolution of combat. There is no firing, and in the case of AARE, there is no detection roll. Of course, the sub could choose to stay and fight, but there is nothing in the rules to suggest that naval ships are forced to fire if they started in a contested zone.

Third, there is a very big distinction you are not making in your example. The distinction is whether the sub is attempting to move into a seazone occupied by a destroyer - or if it already started in a seazone occupied and decides to move away. Think of it this way; if in Monopoly you land on Go or pass Go then you collect $200 dollars (if you land on a destroyer or try to pass the destroyer then you have to stop and fight it). But if at the beginning of your turn you are on Go, you do not again collect $200, you roll to move on (if you start in a zone with a destroyer, you do not have to fight, you can run away).

If this is still too confusing, think of it like this: in AAR destroyers detect on a 6. I.E., they always immediately detect subs. Yet that does not prevent the sub from running away like other naval units if at the beginning of the turn the sub started in a contested seazone with a destroyer in it. The only difference in AARE is that destroyers detect on a 3 (without techs or support). Detecting on a 3 has nothing to do with them being able to run away like the situation states, because detecting on a 6 also has nothing to do with them being able to run away.

[axis_roll]

@Cmdr:

But this is AARe not LHTR.

Enhanced doesn’t alter the ability to move out of a contested sea zone as part of a combat movement.  Bean is correct.

Look at the Sequence of play as well.

Buy units
Combat movement
Resolve combat  <==  detection occurs here, AFTER combat movement.
non combat movement
etc

Hopefully you get the point.