Cont From the AAA Thread, but about warships not AA Guns

[Jennifer]

2 infantry was just an example.  Any two ground units would be the same cost adjustment for the transport.  6 IPC for a unit that can neither attack, nor defend, nor participate in a battle and cannot carry anything that can participate in a naval battle is pretty fair, and it’s only 1 different than how Larry Harris has them now.

The aircraft carrier is just a concern, not a lament. :P  They are fighter delivery platforms, nothing else really, and they shouldn’t be anything else really, which is why they have 0 attack value.  If we amend it so they cannot take hits until all other warships are sunk (something all the warships would have tried to do anyway by keeping the carriers back behind the lines on an attack and defending them as best they could against counter attack) I think the price is right at 12 IPC.

The submarine going up to 8 IPC seems more than fair to me.  Submarines cannot be hit without at least one attacking destroyer.  They get round 1 called shots on the vessel of their choice, provided there are no other types of units attacking with them, and can retreat before any return fire provided there are no defending destroyers (they have to retreat after one round regardless) and they do double damage on convoy raids, while doing the same damage as a destroyer on attack (cruiser with super submarines) so why shouldn’t they cost the same as a destroyer?

Battleships, Cruisers and Destroyers neither go up in price nor down in price using my formula.  Actually, neither do submarines if you take away the special attack price increases I gave them to account for their extra abilities.

Now yes, if we put the plunging fire back on battleships, the price does go up to 22 IPC.  With the 3rd hit, they go up much more, really.  3hits (4AttVal+4DefVal)+2 plunging fire = 26 IPC.  So it’s 24 IPC without plunging fire, but 3 hits to sink (same as your valuation) but there’s a mathematical basis for where that number comes from, and it works for all the ships, not just one or two of them.

So the chart goes to:

Super Battleships w/Plunging Fire: 26 IPC  <==3 hits, plunging fire round 1 only
Reg. Battleships no bonus: 20 IPC <== per current rules
Cruisers: 12 IPC <== per current rules
Aircraft Carrier: 10 IPC <== per current rules
Destroyers: 8 IPC <== per current rules
Submarines w/Called Sneak Shots: 8 IPC <== if attacking by themselves (no other units), during opening fire, may choose their target, may only engage in one round of battle  Return fire if destroyers present
Transports (2 ground unit carry): 6 IPC <== per current rules
Escort Carrier: 5 IPC <== defend at 1, carrier 1 fighter or tactical bomber
(units highlighted in red are denoted by a control marker under them.  ie: Aircraft carrier with control marker and 4 white chips = 5 escort carriers)

[Derek]

@Cmdr:

Super Battleships w/Plunging Fire: 26 IPC  <==3 hits, plunging fire round 1 only
Reg. Battleships no bonus: 20 IPC <== per current rules
Cruisers: 12 IPC <== per current rules
Aircraft Carrier: 10 IPC <== per current rules
Destroyers: 8 IPC <== per current rules
Submarines w/Called Sneak Shots: 8 IPC <== if attacking by themselves (no other units), during opening fire, may choose their target, may only engage in one round of battle  Return fire if destroyers present
Transports (2 ground unit carry): 6 IPC <== per current rules
Escort Carrier: 5 IPC <== defend at 1, carrier 1 fighter or tactical bomber
(units highlighted in red are denoted by a control marker under them.  ie: Aircraft carrier with control marker and 4 white chips = 5 escort carriers)

So cruisers and battleships are rarely purchased OOB, lets make them even worse by massively lowering the cost of carriers (to the same as fighters), and while were at it, add a carrier unit that costs less than tanks…  :-P

Genius

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

2 infantry was just an example.  **Any two ground units would be the same cost adjustment for the transport. ** 6 IPC for a unit that can neither attack, nor defend, nor participate in a battle and cannot carry anything that can participate in a naval battle is pretty fair, and it’s only 1 different than how Larry Harris has them now.

The aircraft carrier is just a concern, not a lament. :P  They are fighter delivery platforms, nothing else really, and they shouldn’t be anything else really, which is why they have 0 attack value.  If we amend it so they cannot take hits until all other warships are sunk (something all the warships would have tried to do anyway by keeping the carriers back behind the lines on an attack and defending them as best they could against counter attack) I think the price is right at 12 IPC.

I better see what you are trying to do.
You create a generic formula, then apply to every units on the board.
Of course, you know you are creating a somewhat different game and dynamics by doing this.
The modified cost can have a price: affecting the balance and be difficult to make it acceptable to other players.

Maybe your friends want it, but not mine. I know them.  Too much is too much sometimes.

However, Uncrustabble got a point about carrier vs battleship.
And this rise the question of your original intent.
What kind of game sea warfare do you want to play? A more tactical inspired one?
Many of your ideas let suggest, it is what you want.
But it is better you let us know for sure.
After, we can start formulating constructive suggestion to develop your own A&A naval games (like some triple A variation, which can include 6 IPCs TT or a CVE at 5 IPCs and other things).

For my part, my approch was different, I was trying to find the generic formula behind OOB rules to better adjust and keep the balance of new HR units and modified OOB units vs OOB units.

That’s the difference between what you want about a 6 IPCs TT and what I said to explain the rationalization behind the 7 IPCs TT.
I think I found some real ground about it, as well as for the cost of carrier and other warship units. (Ex.: 4 IPCs for 1 additional hit, adding 2 FG to the CV to rate is A/D ratio and cost., etc.)

By formulating it, I let everyone be the judge about the accuracy of my formula to explain OOB cost.

[Jennifer]

@Uncrustable:

@Cmdr:

Super Battleships w/Plunging Fire: 26 IPC  <==3 hits, plunging fire round 1 only
Reg. Battleships no bonus: 20 IPC <== per current rules
Cruisers: 12 IPC <== per current rules
Aircraft Carrier: 10 IPC <== per current rules
Destroyers: 8 IPC <== per current rules
Submarines w/Called Sneak Shots: 8 IPC <== if attacking by themselves (no other units), during opening fire, may choose their target, may only engage in one round of battle  Return fire if destroyers present
Transports (2 ground unit carry): 6 IPC <== per current rules
Escort Carrier: 5 IPC <== defend at 1, carrier 1 fighter or tactical bomber
(units highlighted in red are denoted by a control marker under them.  ie: Aircraft carrier with control marker and 4 white chips = 5 escort carriers)

So cruisers and battleships are rarely purchased OOB, lets make them even worse by massively lowering the cost of carriers (to the same as fighters), and while were at it, add a carrier unit that costs less than tanks…   :-P

Genius

You forget they cannot be used in battle to either soak hits, or attack/defense dice.  Tanks can be used to soak hits, have attack and defense dice.

[Jennifer]

I’m really looking to flesh out naval combat in such a way that you don’t necessarily end up with 1 fleet attacking another fleet, but you have many fleets around the ocean. I’d even consider slicing up each of the sea zones into 4 sea zones (just because it’s easier to draw a + in the middle of each and have 4, then screw around trying to cut them up randomly) and increase the speed of all ships to 3 sea zones (4 with naval base.)

The idea is to be able to attack and kill carriers, but not bring carriers into harms way on an attack.  I see the carriers as fighter delivery systems.

Cruisers, destroyers, battleships and aircraft launched from airstrips and carriers (not necessarily airbases, air strips, land side, you know) being the main focus of both attack and defense for all engagements.  So they have attack and defense values and are the units hit before carriers and transports.

Submarines I see more in the ambush role of naval warfare.  Sneaking around enemy fleets to snipe at reinforcements moving to the front, or trying to get around and shoot at under-protected transports and aircraft carriers, hence the first round called shot function.  They can engage with surface vessels and aircraft, but they lose almost all of their real utility (they still engage in combat, but they no longer have special powers) and while it may be important to bring them as extra punch, using them as cheap fodder is frowned upon (they are no longer cheaper than destroyers.)

Meanwhile, all these ships (And I have not yet looked at ground units and aircraft) all fall within a mathematical formula that can predict any future changes and tweaks.  If battleships suddenly get 5 hits and 30 attack dice round 1, we just input the new variables and get a new price out (yes that’s ridiculous, I am using it to demonstrate a point, not advocating that they should get 5 hits and 30 attack dice!)

[Derek]

Sounds like you need to go to A&A minis, war at sea

Either that, or design your own game from scratch

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

I’m really looking to flesh out naval combat in such a way that you don’t necessarily end up with 1 fleet attacking another fleet, but you have many fleets around the ocean. I’d even consider slicing up each of the sea zones into 4 sea zones (just because it’s easier to draw a + in the middle of each and have 4, then screw around trying to cut them up randomly) and increase the speed of all ships to 3 sea zones (4 with naval base.)

The idea is to be able to attack and kill carriers, but not bring carriers into harms way on an attack.�  I see the carriers as fighter delivery systems.� Â

Cruisers, destroyers, battleships and aircraft launched from airstrips and carriers (not necessarily airbases, air strips, land side, you know) being the main focus of both attack and defense for all engagements.�  So they have attack and defense values and are the units hit before carriers and transports.

**Submarines I see more in the ambush role of naval warfare.**�  **Sneaking around enemy fleets to snipe at reinforcements moving to the front, or trying to get around and shoot at under-protected transports and aircraft carriers, hence the first round called shot function.**�  They can engage with surface vessels and aircraft, but they lose almost all of their real utility (they still engage in combat, but they no longer have special powers) and while it may be important to bring them as extra punch, using them as cheap fodder is frowned upon (they are no longer cheaper than destroyers.)

Meanwhile, all these ships (And I have not yet looked at ground units and aircraft) all fall within a mathematical formula that can predict any future changes and tweaks.�  If battleships suddenly get 5 hits and 30 attack dice round 1, we just input the new variables and get a new price out (yes that’s ridiculous, I am using it to demonstrate a point, not advocating that they should get 5 hits and 30 attack dice!)� Â

If you want more little fleet and not just the big massive armada waiting for a massive slaughter with another one, here is what I can suggest, inspired by World War II Expansion rules form David Schwartzer (which I played many times, instead of revised rule, before cruiser and destroyer appear in A&A).

Split naval groups in 3 different groups. A-Surface warships, B- subs, C- escort ships and transports.

So, even if those 3 groups are in the same sea-zone, attacker have the following options:

First, Subs operate alone (attack and defense) and can no longuer serves as cheap fodder for warships. Attacking subs only group is a combat in itself.

Second, when Subs attack, they choose between TTs & escort or warships.

Third, when warships attack, they can choose to attack warships only, or warships + TTs & escort.

Fourth, planes group choose between TTs & escort (plus planes from warships group which can intercept attacking planes and defend TTs) or warships.

TTs can be escorted by DD and real CVE (slow escort carrier A0D1M2C? ASW + 1 plane)
You can also create DE Destroyer escort, if you wish (A1D2M2C8 +1 defense when paired with CVE).

That is the basic. Let’s think if it can get the result intended.

(By the way, now Subs operating alone should stay at 6 IPCs.)

[Jennifer]

@Uncrustable:

Sounds like you need to go to A&A minis, war at sea

Either that, or design your own game from scratch

Toying with designing one and sending it to Larry for approval and implementation, lol.  Axis and Allies: Atlantic or some such.

[Jennifer]

Baron,

Splitting it up like that is an interesting idea, but I can see the complaints from others already: “too complicated!”  (which was the primary complaint behind revising the tech trees into poor technologies building into better technologies.  Like tech A + tech B open up tech C as an option, etc.)

It might be easier to just limit naval engagements so that only the first 20 naval units with up to 10 fighters/bombers + any number of strategic bombers can engage the enemy.  So if you have 30 defending ships with 4 fighters on carriers and an airbase only 20 of those ships but all of those aircraft can defend.  If you have 20 aircraft carriers with 40 fighters, no matter what, only 10 of those fighters can defend, but all the carriers can since they are in the same sea zone and less than the 20 unit limit.

That would be for both attacker and defender.  So you could still put 50 naval units in a sea zone, but if you lost the battle, the 30 that did not engage would be forced to retreat one sea zone.  That might encourage divided fleets while not preventing players from keeping their units together?

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

@Uncrustable:

Sounds like you need to go to A&A minis, war at sea

Either that, or design your own game from scratch

Toying with designing one and sending it to Larry for approval and implementation, lol.  Axis and Allies: Atlantic or some such.Â

Why Atlantic?
In Pacific, there was much more japanese convoy destroyed by USA subs than Allies convoys by U-Boat.
Kind of Bushido code, don’t need to protect the weak or feeble. A warrior is made to fight warships (“knight”), not to protect cargo from subs.

I was serious about this way to generate more little fleet in the ocean.
For starter, you should read about these rules: probably someone can provide you a copy of World War II Expansion rules 1 for Axis and Allies from David Schwartzer. He was a real visionnary, he creates destroyer, destroyer escort and convoys for TTs, cruiser, anti-sub mission for them, air patrol mission against subs, and much more.

During these games, there was many different fleets: many subs in many sea-zone, at least 1 big warship fleet and many escorted transport groups.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

Baron,

Splitting it up like that is an interesting idea, but I can see the complaints from others already: "too complicated!"  (which was the primary complaint behind revising the tech trees into poor technologies building into better technologies.  Like tech A + tech B open up tech C as an option, etc.)

It might be easier to just limit naval engagements so that only the first 20 naval units with up to 10 fighters/bombers + any number of strategic bombers can engage the enemy.  So if you have 30 defending ships with 4 fighters on carriers and an airbase only 20 of those ships but all of those aircraft can defend.  If you have 20 aircraft carriers with 40 fighters, no matter what, only 10 of those fighters can defend, but all the carriers can since they are in the same sea zone and less than the 20 unit limit.

That would be for both attacker and defender.  So you could still put 50 naval units in a sea zone, but if you lost the battle, the 30 that did not engage would be forced to retreat one sea zone.  That might encourage divided fleets while not preventing players from keeping their units together?

I first think along this line. But then, I forsee many battles with the maximum ship in each fleet. How fix this maximum? According to which criterias? You say 20, but why not lower or higher? Why a larger group cannot gain advantage over a smaller one? Etc.

Then I remember unofficial Expansion Rules.
Separating subs and transports seems complicated but is not.
It is a way of creating “different sea-zone” in the same sea-zone instead of splitting it in 4.
Subs and transport have already different rules.
It is just a step further without creating a totally different game. The same pieces played just a bit differently.

[Jennifer]

Because there’s already an Axis and Allies: Pacific.  :P

Atlantic could be interesting as well, maybe prevent the allies from making submarines altogether to really focus on the German U-boat supremacy?

As for limit of 20, it was arbitrary mostly, but I could see 10 aircraft being a nice maximum and if those are half the warships involved then 20 is okay.  20 Really is a decent sized fleet too, come to think of it.  20 warships would be akin to 3 battleships, 5 cruisers, 8 destroyers, 4 submarines (since Aircraft Carriers have no attack value, you wouldn’t choose to bring them, right?)  Add in 10 fighter/tactical bombers and unlimited strategic bombers and you have a really good attack fleet right there.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

Because there’s already an Axis and Allies: Pacific.� � :P

Atlantic could be interesting as well, maybe prevent the allies from making submarines altogether to really focus on the German U-boat supremacy?� �

As for limit of 20, it was arbitrary mostly, but I could see 10 aircraft being a nice maximum and if those are half the warships involved then 20 is okay.� � 20 Really is a decent sized fleet too, come to think of it.� � 20 warships would be akin to 3 battleships, 5 cruisers, 8 destroyers, 4 submarines (since Aircraft Carriers have no attack value, you wouldn’t choose to bring them, right?)� � Add in 10 fighter/tactical bombers and unlimited strategic bombers and you have a really good attack fleet right there.

Why not just 1 unit of each kind of ship: 1 Sub, 1 DD, 1 Cruiser, 1 Carrier, 1 Battleship, 2 planes.
Here is a basic task force.
Maybe we can had 1 sub and 1 DD for additionnal protection and cheap fodder.
Sum: 7 ships + 2 planes.
If you have escort carrier, then 8 ships + 3 planes.
Any battle can add planes from nearby airbase for extra offensive punch.
No limit here for attacker. Scramble limit for defender.

We can rationalize that more units are too hard to coordinate.

So every group of warship is present, (don’t forget, each unit is standing for many similar ships).

It will be also an incentive to buy Cruiser and Battleship to get a complete Task Force.

That is a less arbitrary number because it is based on this rule: all type of units are part of a complete Task Force.
If you get large battle, you oppose full Task Force vs full Task Force and remaining ships vs remaining ships, all in the same turn.
So, it will be possible that ships from both sides survive after the battle.

Addendum:
If any task force is under 7 ships, then smaller one can be substitue for larger ship unit who is missing.
Example: 1 battleship is missing, but there is another cruiser in the sea-zone, then the Task Force will be: 2 Subs, 2 DDs, 2 CAs, 1 CV, 2 planes.

Actually, with 7 ships + 2 planes, it is near the 10.
Maybe we can limit the fleet to up to 10 units, never more than 2 of the same kind of unit.
It can be another way to get almost the same result.

[Jennifer]

I could do something similar:

• 2x DD, CA, AC, BB + 2 carrier based aircraft maximum in any attack force (does not include planes from other fleets or land based which may still engage the enemy.)
• 2 SS, 2 DD, CA, AC, BB + 2 carrier based aircraft maximum in any defense force (does not include any planes scrambled from eligible air fields)

If there are escort carriers, then they could be included as well, optionally, but would not be required.

You would be permitted to have MORE units than is allowed, but they would not be able to participate in the battle.

Just curious how to handle multinational fleets in this case.

[Derek]

This discussion has officially reached low-earth orbit lol

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

This discussion has officially reached low-earth orbit lol

Always the right word.  :-D

The prime question is : is this a real problem ?
Big massive armada waiting for a massive slaughter with another one massive armada.

Do we really want more little fleet over the board and not just those big and long awaiting battle between 1 axis and many allies joined together?

[Jennifer]

I want more little fleets on the board.  Actually a limit on number of units per territory and sea zone makes sense, just how many armadas can you shove into 1 square nautical mile anyway?

[Derek]

@Cmdr:

I want more little fleets on the board.  Actually a limit on number of units per territory and sea zone makes sense, just how many armadas can you shove into 1 square nautical mile anyway?

Well considering one game square equals thousands of nautical miles…

Honesty iplay a lot of42 and I spectate alotofG40…
I see many skirmishes both land and sea
Involving DDs, CAs, and SS

Certainly far more skirmishes than the huge battles you talk of

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

@Cmdr:

I want more little fleets on the board.� � Actually a limit on number of units per territory and sea zone makes sense, just how many armadas can you shove into 1 square nautical mile anyway?

Well considering one game square equals thousands of nautical miles…

Honesty iplay a lot of42 and I spectate alotofG40…
I see many skirmishes both land and sea
Involving DDs, CAs, and SS

Certainly far more skirmishes than the huge battles you talk of

That’s why I rather prefer a small split between three types of navy:

If you want more little fleet and not just the big massive armada waiting for a massive slaughter with another one, here is what I can suggest, inspired by World War II Expansion rules form Phillip Schwartzer (which I played many times, instead of revised rule, before cruiser and destroyer appear in A&A).

Split naval groups in 3 different groups. A-Surface warships, B- subs, C- escort ships and transports.

So, even if those 3 groups are in the same sea-zone, attacker have the following options:

First, Subs operate alone (attack and defense) and can no longuer serves as cheap fodder for warships. Attacking subs only is a combat group in itself.
Second, when Subs attack, they choose between TTs & escort or warships.

Third, when warships attack, they can choose to attack warships only, or warships + TTs & escort.

Fourth, planes group choose between TTs & escort (plus planes from warships group which can intercept attacking planes and defend TTs) or warships.

TTs can be escorted by DD and real CVE (slow escort carrier A0D1M2C? ASW + 1 plane)
You can also create DE Destroyer escort, if you wish (A1D2M2C8 +1 defense when paired with CVE).

That is the basic. Let’s think if it can get the result intended.

(By the way, now Subs operating alone should stay at 6 IPCs.)

To develop this idea, I will start with the most historically base element (and already touched earlier), (it is a slight variation of Schwartzer rules):
Subs operating as a separated group.
Subs cannot protect TTs or warships.

When subs attack, they choose target between warships or TTs and escort ships,
they cannot choose other subs.
It is a special subs combat phase which is previous to any others, so no other units can attack with them, specially planes.

After all subs attack are resolved, then warships and planes can follow as regular OOB combat rules.

During this subs combat phase, if sub get a hit, each successful specific sub unit get 1 option:
a) immediate submerge and cannot be retaliate � by defender (except by ASW like DD) or
b) stay for another round taking all defending shots along with other unsuccesful subs.

Of course as OOB, if no ASW present, the casuality cannot be part of the defending rolls against others unsuccesful subs.

To attack them, it is a declared action call: Antisub mission and air patrol.
Only DDs, cruisers and planes can do it, and Escort carrier, if created as ASW.

Planes to do it, as OOB, need to be with ASW like DD or CVE/CVL.

Cruiser can make it alone, but they cannot block the First Strike from subs like DD can.

AntiSub Mission is a one shot attack, unless subs decides to fireback instead of submerging.

Subs can defend at “1” only if they were hit, or the defending player decide to stay in the battle an additionnal round.

In which case, all attacking units get another round of firing if attacker choose, because as OOB he can rather retreat.

After there is a special move allowed, if the attacking group has 1 move left, it can either return to his previous sea-zone, or go to another adjacent one from the actual sea-zone in which he conduct Antisub mission and Air Patrol.
In this manner, DDs, Cruisers and Escort carriers can return within a group of warships or Transports to keep them protected while on defense.

[baron Münchhausen]

One consequence of this Antisub Mission rule is keeping one large group of subs was not a good strategy against it, so there was many sea-zone occupied by 1 or 2 subs only.

It was the way to prevent a massive slaughter from 1 succesful combined attack of air and sea units. So, unless you split your attack against them (reducing your chance of destroying them), the defender may loose only 1 or 2 subs at once.

Another consequence, is a rising number of DDs to destroy subs and to protect TTs and warships groups.

Rise the question of how to protect vulnerable transport.
In the original rules, there was a special token unit: _destroyer escort A1D2M2C8, defend @3 when paired with 1 TT._
And all additionnal DE defend @2 unless paired with 2 TTs.
So, 2 DE @3 when protecting 3 TTs. 3DE@3 for 5TTs, etc.
TTs were able to defend @1 against Air unit only.

What can be develop to distinguish DD escorting TT from those escorting warships?
Single A2D2M2C8, is it enough to defend OOB TT taken last?
Many aspects has to be work out.

Maybe we can keep everything the same, except for subs rules.

Keeping 1 fleet of all other surface ships.
So, it can be as simple as:
when subs choice is to attack TTs, all warships defend subs, except BB and Carrier.
Only DDs, Cruisers, [CVE/CVL also], and planes [if DD present as OOB rule] will be part of the defense.

If Subs attack warships, then if at the end they destroy all of them, then they get to destroy all TTs as OOB rule of Taken last.