The aberration of the defenseless transport

  • '17 '16

    That is what I think:
    the simplest (no difference between casuality units (Fg vs Sb or BB) from TT fire),
    no more defenseless in mimicking the classic TT defensive roll for 1 round (1 single @1/TT)
    and nearer the OOB TT (Roll to destroy TT if no attacker’s unit survive, if any attacker survive then auto-kill):

    TTn2 Baron [Cow] A0D1C7, 1 hit value, can survive if no enemy after 1st round. No escape, auto-kill.

    Don’t you think?

    @KimRYoung:

    Garg had it right that transports used to be used as ablative armor for the fleet.
    This is why Larry changed the rules. Any concept that the TT has intrinsic support vessels went out with the addition of cruisers and destroyers. Protecting transports is part of their responsibility.

    This debate really needs to go one of two directions: 1. a House Rule that would at least have popular use, or 2. a viable change that might actually have a chance to find its way into future additions of the game (this would have to be a subtle change to have any chance with Larry).

    Kim

    Do you think this defensive only, 1/6 chance per transport, for 1 single round to destroy all ennemy’s unit, to get a chance to survive for them is THAT subtle change?

    Their is still risk and no more totally predictable endings.
    Because of the autokill, the attacker greatly overwhelms the transports defense.
    If their is many much more TTs units than attacking units, they still got a chance of survival.

    Do we need to increase the killing rate against TT by adding the maximum killing rate for 1 round?:

    If all attacking units are destroyed by TT’s fire, for each attacking unit, their is still 1 TT casuality.

  • TripleA

    Japan used subs as transports… those things attacked!

  • '17 '16

    @Der:

    Every “special rule” you come up with only further complicates the game.
    ou just do this, guys - you make transports the way they were for 24 years.

    In 2004 before all of this tinkering with the rules Larry Harris said on his site "Transports work well and always have."� �

    Transports defended @1 because they were assumed to be escorted.
    Now there are DDs in the game that defend @2.

    However, there were still many types of escorts that took part in WWII protecting transports that were not as good as DDs but still offered some protection. There were Merchant aircraft carriers, Catapult Aircraft Merchantmen, Armed merchant cruisers, Corvettes, Frigates, and Escort Carriers. These can be represented by making the transports defend @1 as they used to. This is 1/2 the strength of a DD escort.

    Stop the reminiscing “when we used to play back in the 80’s, blah blah” - it won’t work that way anymore - now BBs take 2 hits, subs cost 6 IPCs, and DDs are a purchase option. You bump the classic transport up to 10 IPCs and call it a troopship, which is what it is anyway. Nobody is going to be fool enough to use them as fodder anymore.

    And best of all: no special rules. They fit in nicely with the rules already in place. Plug them in and just play.� � �

    Now that I have done my part for finding a no defenseless OOB TTn, I will throw some mud in the fan against this hypnotical soothing call: “Come to the dark side… and revert back to classics trannies.” :wink:

    1- A direct reverting from OOB TTn to TTc (no change in cost: 7 IPCs stay the same.)
    will have great effect on the game. Maybe someone will try it and will tell us what happen. I hope.

    For sure, the screening or cannon fodder effect will take a part. Not as important it was in classical version of A&A but, nonetheless, any player seeing that the odds of survival will be against his/her defensive fleet, will do anything to protect is @3-4 units just expecting making maximum wreckrage before loosing all.

    2- If you agree, then rise the question: so what? If you like the changes of balance it creates in OOB Global. Fine. If you prefer to keep OOB balance, that is the problem.

    3- Now also rise a question of personnal taste: do you prefer transport which transports (quoting but who?) and warship which makes war, battle and escort?

    4- If this is the case, as it seems for many TTn likers criticizing transport screening, you will need some incentive which modify the unit and the rule so their will be no great reward in picking TT instead of warships as casualities. Hence, willingly creating similar combat dynamics as the OOB Global.

    5- What can be these adjustments?
    For now, 2 ways have been develop:

    1- Increase TTc cost because it is a more usefull unit than TTn. So loosing a higher IPCs TT unit vs cheaper (DD and Subs) seems a bad choice.
    However, this cost affects directly all amphibious strategies: higher prices mean less transports or lack of Inf to move on board.

    2- Minimize the usefullness of TT as cannon fodder in battle. That’s Uncrustable idea, Spendo02 and I followed. Their is also 2 ways: a) the number of casuality a hit make and b) the number of Def@1 each unit can do.

    (3- The third way will be a combination of both.)

    I think it increases the tactical fun when a player can choose himself is own casuality.

    Actually, the dilemma is more:
    whether loosing a future useful transport unit but protecting higher defensive unit and making a higher rate of damage on ennemy , because fearing the defeat  vs whether loosing immediate defending unit, because of higher hope of victory, for the sake of future.

    This tactical dilemma should be increase: loosing  a future valuable TT and expensive unit vs loosing a cheaper but immediatly valuable defending unit.

    Here is the interest of Uncrustable principle “2TTs are required to have 1 whole combat unit Def@1”:
    You can buy the same number of TT (7 IPCs) and have no effect on moving troops around the globe but TT becomes less usefull as a combat fodder unit and it will be at a higher price than 9-10 IPCs since 2x7=14 IPCs (more than a cruiser but far less effective combat unit).

    In essence, 1 hit killing 2 transports reflect the much higher combat value of other unit vs TT.
    Bomber (12 IPCs) unit @4 has not just a ridiculous 4 times killing ratio! than TT@1 (7 to 10 IPCs), it has at least similar destructive effect (14 IPCs).

    This will increase the caring for TTs but will generate a higher price to pay for the player in order to let them be fodder to obtain more firing rounds by protecting @3-4 warships and aircrafts.

    Where is the balance, I think it has still to be tuned.

  • '17 '16

    @Cow:

    Japan used subs as transports… those things attacked!

    No need to push forward. AKA was enough for me.
    Even though 1 Subs doesn’t embark as many troops than AKA, think now of 50.

    We need to stay at a global level, individual prowess and heroism can’t be use in A&A as a reference for building unit rules and specs.

    However, I find it a dangerous game braker, if you bring many TTs with a substantial fleet.
    1BB 1CV 2Fg 2DD 6TT.
    It means many 6@1 (at least 2, even 3 rounds) until all the 8 hits are taken against warships.

    And even after, you have the right as an attacker to retreat to another sea-zone (OOB rules), so no need to loose all TT in this assault.

  • TripleA

    well yeah that is cool. USA can now do something in both theaters.

  • '17 '16

    Since the beginning a lot of creative suggestions have been made.
    I feel it is the time to summarize all of these. The present post regroup all Pro-Classics, the next one shows the numerous possibility (and creativity of everyone) for a better Transport and less defenseless based on the new OOB rules.

    I will try to summarize the Pro-classic transport (TTc) options presented in this tread.
    (I bold the differences.)

    Optional rule for Transport develop upon this first base rule:
    Defender choosing casuality.

    TTc1 (Classic/Com. Jen./Der Kuenstler) @1 C8-9-10, 1 hit value each. No escape.

    TTc2 Baron M/Toblerone77 @1 C9-10 (as 1 upgraded unit near IC, NB made of OOB Global TT@0 C7+Escort Frigates/Corvettes C2/3 Coupled EF/ ECorvette to transport A0D+1 at time of purchase.) 1 hit value each.  No escape. Both TT C7 & TT+EF/EC C9-10 can be built.

    TTc3 Uncrustable @0 C7 no hit value for a lone TT, 2 TTs 1@1, 1 hit value for 2 TTs. No escape. Last single TT: autokill.

    TTc4 Baron M @0 C7, 1 hit value for single TT and 2-3 TTs 1@1, 4-5 TTs 2@1, 2 hits value (2 groups: 2TTs, 1@1/2-3TTs, 1@1). No escape.

    TTc5 Spendo02 @1 C7 as a group of 1 or more TTs, 1 hit value as a group. No escape.

    I think I put them in decreasing order of impact, the first will have much more and the fifth will be the nearest from the OOB 1940 Global Transport.

    I cannot hide I have a taste for TTc3&4 because of their middle position (which take account of proportionnality vs TTc5 and keeping the initial balance of OOB 1940 vs TTc1-2 but still trying to come back to the classic rules for TT).

    Maybe you have another evaluation about those five?

    If you have to try one of those, what will be your expectations?

  • '17 '16

    I will try to summarize the options for the New or No casuality transport (TTn) presented in this tread.

    TTn0 (OOB 1940) @0 C7, no hit value.
    Optional rule for Transport develop upon this first base rule:
    Transports are chosen last.

    These options are ordered upon the nearest from TTn0 (100% casualities & no defense, no hit value) to the farthest (1 regular attack/unit @1 to @4 & TT Def@1 vs specific unit, 1 hit value/TT).

    TTn0.5 Krieghund @0 C7, 1 hit value. Transport unit can be chosen as casualty when TPs number is above number of combat units.

    TTn1 Knp7765/BJCard/KimRYoung/Gekkepop @0, no hit value but max: 3, 2 or 1 TT per attacking unit is destroyed. (All auto-kills.) Can escape.

    TTn2 Baron [Cow] A0D1C7, 1 hit value, can survive if no enemy after 1st round. No escape, auto-kill. Variation: Each attacker’s unit destroy 1TT instead of rolling D, if TTs hit all of them.

    TTn3 Cow A1D1C7, 1 hit value, can survive on defense, if no enemy after 1st round. No escape, auto-kill. Historical background: Attack Cargo Ships, or AKA (KimRYoung)

    TTn4 Cow/Uncrustable 1AA@1, no hit value, treat as 1AAA preemptive shot per TT. No escape, auto-kill.

    TTn5 Admirable Admiral @0, no hit value. @1/TT against aircrafts only for 1 round, if any warships: auto-kill. No escape.

    TTn6 KimRYoung/Toblerone77 @0, 1 hit value each, no defense. Can escape.

    TTn7 Spendo02 1@1 as a group of 1+, 1 hit value as a group. No escape.

    TTn8 Baron Mun 1@1 as a group of 2+, 1 hit value each. 1 TT alone is @0. No escape.

    TTn9 Spendo02 1@1 as a group of 1+, 1 hit value each. No escape.

    TTn10 Elevenjerk 1@1 as a group of 1+, 1 hit value each. Must flee after 1st rnd.

    TTn11 Uncrustable @1 for 2 TTs, 1 hit value for 2 TTs. Last single TT: autokill, no hit value. No escape.

    TTn12 Baron Mun @1 for 2 TTs, 1 hit value each. 1 TT alone is @0. Attacker: 2D or 3D/ attacking unit. No auto-kill: can escape.

    TTn13 Baron Mun @0, 1 hit value each. Low defense fire: each TT is @1D but 2 hits @“1” to kill 1 attacking unit. No auto-kill: can escape.

    TTn14 (Philip Schwartzer & Gamers Paradise) @0, 1 hit value, @1/TT against aircrafts only. No escape against aircrafts until downed, or escape if only warships are present. Attacker: 2D/ attacking units. No auto-kill.

    TTn15 Uncrustable/Spendo02/Toblerone77/Gargantua @1, 1 hit value each, cost 8. No escape. Classic TT taken last.

    TTn16 Cow @1, 1 hit value each, cost 7. Can escape… (…instead of rolling D, Gargantua 7+1 IPCs).

    TTn17 Uncrustable @1, 1 hit value each, against Aircrafts and Destroyers. Auto-kill vs other warships. No escape.

    When escape is possible, it is either:
    Escape 1: take the form of “Scattering” in the same sea-zone.
    Escape 2: take the form of “Fleeing” in the next sea-zone (if not ennemy’s control).

    I tried to be genuine but if you see any mistake:
    Send a message or simply write a post (it could be erase after correction made.)

    I can let you a question for the sake of the discussion:

    According to you, which TTn seems able to be a somewhat less defenseless TT and to keep better the balance, no matter how imbalance are the initial settings?

    Which one will increase risk, decision making, fun without affecting other important aspect of the game?


  • Remember Sesame street?

    “One of these things is not like the other”

    BBs, CVs, CAs, DDs, SSs, Bombers, Tac, Fighters, Tanks, Mech, Art - choose your own casualties in the order you see fit as commander.

    Global Transport - NO CHOOSING! Transports MUST ALWAYS be taken last!

    BBs, CVs, CAs, DDs, SSs, Bombers, Tac, Fighters, Tanks, Mech, Art -
    All involve risk when attacking them

    Global Transport - NO RISK - all are swept away with no loss to the attacker. (even taking off from and landing on a carrier without doing any battle involved SOME operational risk)

    BBs, CVs, CAs, DDs, SSs, Bombers, Tac, Fighters, Tanks, Mech, Art -
    All battles resolved with dice rolls. Results are happy or sad.

    Global Transport - All battles are resolved by picking up the dead transports and dropping them back in your tray. Results are pre-decided and a bore.

    @Baron:

    1- Increase TTc cost because it is a more usefull unit than TTn. So loosing a higher IPCs TT unit vs cheaper (DD and Subs) seems a bad choice.
    However, this cost affects directly all amphibious strategies: higher prices mean less transports or lack of Inf to move on board.

    Not really, as I favor keeping the extra transport capacity of the Global unit. Plus the classic unit defending @1 will mean it will have to be replaced less often. So the extra cost should be negligible.

  • '17 '16

    @Der:

    Global Transport - All battles are resolved by picking up the dead transports and dropping them back in your tray. Results are pre-decided and a bore.

    @Baron:

    1- Increase TTc cost because it is a more usefull unit than TTn. So loosing a higher IPCs TT unit vs cheaper (DD and Subs) seems a bad choice.
    However, this cost affects directly all amphibious strategies: higher prices mean less transports or lack of Inf to move on board.

    Not really, as I favor keeping the extra transport capacity of the Global unit. Plus the classic unit defending @1 will mean it will have to be replaced less often. So the extra cost should be negligible.

    Very funny analogy. :-D
    Did you played Global once both Classic and Chosen last? I’m curious.
    Does this really have no impact on overall game (dis-)balance [some would say] when TT are at 8 IPCs?
    The same strategic moves even if battle outcomes vary and the number of TTs available is different?
    Will it be different?
    TT won’t be used in large masse as naval cannon fodder, just to get sea domination?

    Global Transport - All battles are resolved by picking up the dead transports and dropping them back in your tray. Results are pre-decided and a bore.

    Predictable results is what we want disappear: many will agree on this.

    However, their is two means to escape from defenseless transport.

    After that, even a no more defenseless transport didn’t solve the other issue.


  • If you dont want your transports being ‘swept off the board and returned to their tray’…
    LEARN TO COUNT and BUILD A FLEET TO ESCORT THEM.
    If they are ESCORTED and your opponent attacks them, he is taking a “risk” by battling with the escorts to get to the transports.
    If you choose not to escort them, YOU are taking a “risk” by leaving them defenseless.
    It ADDS to the game it doesnt take anything away from it.

    I absolutely hated the old transports, and was so relieved when Larry changed them to a defenseless unit.
    Naval battles were rare and dull transport fodder trade offs before the change.


  • @Uncrustable:

    If you dont want your transports being ‘swept off the board and returned to their tray’…
    LEARN TO COUNT and BUILD A FLEET TO ESCORT THEM.
    If they are ESCORTED and your opponent attacks them, he is taking a “risk” by battling with the escorts to get to the transports.
    If you choose not to escort them, YOU are taking a “risk” by leaving them defenseless.
    It ADDS to the game it doesnt take anything away from it.

    I absolutely hated the old transports, and was so relieved when Larry changed them to a defenseless unit.
    Naval battles were rare and dull transport fodder trade offs before the change.

    1000x this

  • TripleA

    The old transports did allow america to invade territories instead of sit around with boats n oceans.


  • @Cow:

    The old transports did allow america to invade territories instead of sit around with boats n oceans.

    Yes, now they have to purchase/operate/maintain fleets, and conduct battle on the high seas against the enemy in order to move troops from its mainland to the front lines. This makes the game more both more interesting/entertaining and historical.

  • Customizer

    I’d like to know what the poster’s preferred countries to play are.

  • TripleA

    If I play America… it is full pacific for me in global.

    The atlantic is not interesting. If you do anything in the atlantic you only buy for it up to the first 3 rounds. You pretty much are just supplying uk with some transports and naval to protect his stuff so he can load and off load units every other turn.

    That is it.

    It is simple, it is boring, and there is not much else you can do.  You can try to do other things sure, but it almost always never pans out. You are needed in the Pacific, Japan is powerful.

    Since you do not need many transports the pacific is where you got to be… plus you get help from anzac plus Japan is an island so you are both on equal footing… where as germany can just drop 10 inf and all of a sudden your 5 boat loads just got matched.

  • TripleA

    See when I am Germany and I see atlantic buys from America. I get three options, naval, air, or ground to defend against it. I see you coming. I can plan to attack your fleet if you do not get enough naval. I can plan to counter attack your ground if you do get enough naval.

    You need a high amount of luck for whatever plan you go with. Sometimes if you can get Germany to dedicate enough to defend against you, then you can contain him from advancing deep into russia… problem is… everything germany needs for Russia is bought and moved in the first 3 rounds.

    So that is a tight window and you only start with 1 transport in the atlantic with 1 cruiser.

  • TripleA

    It costs much to protect them, it would reduce the cost a little if they had some defense value.

    That is all people are getting at.

    It has nothing to do with how good their strategy is or is not. The fact of the matter is, USA spawns far away so no matter what USA does the axis know how they will react in advance.

    You get heavy transport, they plan to sink it, you get heavy naval, they ignore it.

    The pacific is much more forgiving for USA to do a variety of buys.

  • Official Q&A

    @Baron:

    @BJCard:

    @Krieghund:

    How about this for a house rule idea: leave the transport rules exactly as they are, except transports in excess of combat units can be taken as casualties.  This allows combat units to “screen” transports, but unscreened transports can be lost.

    Example:
    A fleet containing a carrier, 2 fighters, a destroyer, and 5 transports is attacked.  The first hit could be taken on the carrier, damaging it.  The next hit may be taken on a transport, as there are 5 transports but only 4 combat units.  However, the following hit must be taken on a combat unit, as the number of transports and combat units is now equal.  The remaining order of loss could be destroyer, transport, carrier, transport, fighter, transport, fighter, transport.

    I actually like Krieg’s solution a lot.  transports are defended on a 1-1 basis.

    I still cannot see why is this a solution?
    TT become a 1 unit value @0 like AAA after first round.

    They will play a similar role, mostly if defender thinks he couldn’t make it against attacker’s units.

    TT becomes cannon fodder or tampering unit for the defensive valuable unit (D2/D3/D4) like what many critics about classic pointed out.

    What it does, is only regulate the rate of attrition amongst TT.

    Exactly, but at a much weaker value than in Classic.

    @KimRYoung:

    Transports still get used as a cheap soak off, when in reality attacking units would go for capital ships. Transports should get the hell out of a combat zone ASAP since the only thing they want is to survive!

    Yes, but as someone pointed out, A&A is about choices.  This gives the transport owner more control over order of loss, without using transports completely as a shield.  However, it would probably be necessary to also outlaw attacking with transports unless doing an amphibious assault (and them only with loaded ones).

    @Cow:

    It costs much to protect them, it would reduce the cost a little if they had some defense value.

    That is all people are getting at.

    I believe that’s exactly what I proposed.  Allowing transports to be conditionally taken as casualties gives them “some defense value” by allowing preservation of some combat unit firepower for a little longer without using them completely as cannon fodder.  This leverages the value of your combat units, allowing you to purchase fewer of them for the same effect.  You still have to protect your transports, but it’s a little easier to do so.  It also preserves the requirement to give transports adequate protection, as they are still completely defenseless on their own.

    Another example may illustrate this.  Say you have a fleet consisting of a cruiser and three transports.  Under the official rules, all an attacker need do is sink the cruiser, and the whole fleet goes down.  Under my proposal, two of the transports can be lost before the cruiser.  This gives the defender some cushion, but not nearly as much as it would in Classic, as the transports can’t fire.  This extra bit of defense forces the attacker to bring more to the table than he would need to do under the current rules.  However, the defense is still relatively weak, as the defender only gets one shot per round, so it’s still wise for the defender to provide more warships.


  • Pretty good, Krieghund, except you won’t please all those shouting “warships are there to protect transports, not the other way around!” The transports you take early are essentially protecting the warships, aren’t they?

    I can point to another unit example for my argument.

    A bomber defends @1. Why? Doesn’t this represent a bomber getting caught on the ground like at Pearl Harbor? If you are OK with the transport having no defense, then to be consistent the bomber should also have no defense and be “auto-destroyed”.

    Surely the bomber parked on the runway did not have a viable means to defend itself in the war, at least not to the point that it could be represented in this game. What about AA? Well, the Liberty Transport ships each had 8 AA guns. Besides, you already get an AA roll at an airbase. So why is everyone OK with a bomber defending @1? No one seems to have a problem with that at all, despite its unreality. Probably because bombers are so danged expensive.

    My proposal does not create inconsistency. Rather it fits in with the rules of the rest of the game as it has been played since the early 80’s. I favor a 10 IPC “Troopship” which has the larger capacity of the Global ransport but with a classic attack of “0” and defense of “1”. It’s going to be too expensive to regularly use it as fodder, except in some desperate situations, and it has no new “special rule” baggage with it to fog your mind.


  • I would argue that a bomber would have time to get airborne, however at a severely reduced capacity.

    A bomber is a combat unit, a transport is not a combat unit (it is simply there to TRANSPORT). Please stop comparing apples to oranges to prove points.

    I for one, (don’t care if i’m the only one) hated classic transport rules. The naval system was stale and pungent. Naval buys (other than transports) were very rare and naval battles (the few of them there were) were mostly transport fodder trade offs. How stupid.

    The new transport rules have greatly improved the game.

    I would be happy to add a ‘frigate’ unit to the game that cost 4 IPCs A/D at 1/1, movement of 1 (+1 movement when paired with transports 1:1). Would make a great transport escort. But it still would be a COMBAT unit transporting a NONcombat unit.

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