Military History's Best Loser

[Imperious Leader]

New Carthage as it was known then was in the hands of the Carthaginian empire for a span of 19 years, hardly a pillar of the empire.

That’s like saying “my argument is full of hot air and in the event somebody proves it is even worse less, I’ll pull this 19 years thing…like it means anything”

The attack came from the Carthage Empire located in Spain, not from across some ocean. Just because the capital of Carthage is in Tunis, does not mean they can only conduct attacks or wage war from across the “ocean”.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

I never disagreed that the attack came from Spain.  So again, I am not sure what if any disagreement there is.

But the war was between an empire based in Africa against a European empire.  I don’t think you can say Carthage was a Spanish based Empire because it had a few belongings there for a few decades.

I think you are confusing battles with wars.

[Imperious Leader]

The disagreement is your issue that the war was “separated by ocean” it was not. Carthage was a coastline empire, much like Rome. Logistically, Hannibal launched his campaign from Europe against Rome. Not from across ‘the ocean’.

Get over it.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

If you insist there is a disagreement then you must be right.

[Imperious Leader]

Crunch writes:

I never disagreed that the attack came from Spain.  So again, I am not sure what if any disagreement there is.

Crunch also writes:

Carthage was indeed across the ocean and that is from where the attack originated from sans his European allies.

Well then it was not a war separated by “ocean”. It came directly from Europe to Rome.

Carthage had her capital in Africa, but the empire was all over the place ( both Europe and Africa)

[MrMalachiCrunch]

I suppose it depends on YOUR version of the meaning of war and battle.  shrugs

[Imperious Leader]

Naw it just depends on the facts, get over it.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

By your logic, the US did not fight an overseas war during WW I or II as it had bases in England.  Sure dude.  If you want to insist Carthage and Rome were not separated by the Mediterranean ocean you go girl.  Whatever you say.

[Imperious Leader]

By your logic, the US did not fight an overseas war during WW I or II as it had bases in England.  Sure dude.

More like some of your flawed logic.

In order to make any sense of what your saying and propose such an analogy, The US would need to own England as part of the United States.

Spain was part of Carthage, UK was not part of USA.

The attack was launched from the Carthage Empire which controlled Spain ( part of it).

Sure dude.

[Gargantua]

What about Honolulu? Phillipines?

I guess the war against Japan wasn’t overseas… because those were part of your territory.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

Splitting hairs comparing England as a base but not owned versus New Carthage.

Again, my point was that Hannibal was fighting Rome for Carthage and that the empires were primarily across an ocean.  We can politely agree to disagree on what degree Carthage was considered an African Empire.  Iberia was barely part of the Carthaginian empire, certainly not a key portion of the empire as say Italy was to the Roman Empire…western roman empire that is.

This was a fun polite debate IL, I encourage you to keep to that spirit and refrain from less than polite discourse.

I guess the war against Japan wasn’t overseas… because those were part of your territory.

Perhaps England is not overseas from Argentina and never fought a long distance across the ocean war since the Falkland Islands are close to South America and part of the British Empire.

But this debate as to whether or not Carthage is considered overseas from the Roman Empire should perhaps get a thread of its own and not hijack this thread.  We should discuss WHY Hannibal was the Best who Lost!  :wink:

[Imperious Leader]

Again, my point was that Hannibal was fighting Rome for Carthage and that the empires were primarily across an ocean.

Well it was across a sea, not an ocean.

It was ( the 1st and 2nd Punic wars) where Hannibal the General born in Turkey ( not Spain or Carthage) commanded an army dispatched from part of the empire in what was to become Spain in an attack against Rome.

These wars were not some fight “across the sea”

Get it right.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

With comments like “Get it right.” it implies to me you just want to be dick.  I think for me this topic is just about done. IL, see you in Oshawa.

[Imperious Leader]

it implies to me you just want to be dick.

And so does all the items you edited out of like 3-4 other posts, Like the “sure dude” comments that are mysteriously gone and forgot to edit this:

The was was between an African empire and a European empire.  Get over it.

“Get it right” only means, you still are trying to angle the comments you made which are wrong into somehow they are right.

This war was not separated by an ocean ( except for the 3rd Punic War– which was really a siege).

The capabilities of Carthage to wage war were from Spain, which was part of Carthage.

And it does not matter if Hannibal was not born in Spain, or that Carthage controlled Spain for 19 years. What matters is where did the war came from, certainly not across the “ocean” or silly arguments like “The majority of land controlled by Carthage was in Africa referencing that somehow it was a war across the ocean”

Only the capitals were separated by ocean. The empires were not.

see you in Oshawa

?

Is that something like Mutual of Omaha?…as in insurance? Wild Kingdom?

[Gargantua]

IL is afraid to come to Oshawa, and challenge the ranks of the best players at A&A.org.  He knows what will happen to him if he does.

:)

[Imperious Leader]

No such place exists. Mutual of Omaha does exist however.

[Gargantua]

Really?

I always thought Gaylord of California was where you were from.

http://www.tripadvisor.ca/Hotel_Review-g60713-d510378-Reviews-The_Gaylord-San_Francisco_California.html

[Imperious Leader]

No but i did stay at the Palace Hotel a few times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbJXzwURlRw

[Gargantua]

Wow thanks for sharing your family video’s with all of us at AA.org

Everything makes sense now. :)

[Last Jack]

Since IL did such an outstanding job of illustrating that Spain was indeed part of the Carthaginian empire and therefore refuting Mr. Crunch’s ridiculous US/UK analogy. I would like to point out that Hannibal spent the 8 years in Spain prior to MARCHING his army into the Italy. It is also important to remember that the Italian peninsula was not 100% hostile to the Carthaginians.

As far as a possible GDP comparison, I have to strongly disagree with Mr. Crunch. Carthage was not at all “puny.” It controlled vast tracts of some of the most productive lands in the Mediterranean. I find it difficult to conceive Carthage faced a greater GDP deficit than Napoleon’s France. After all Napoleon did fight against nearly ever industrialized nation in the world.