Operation Barbarossa Prevention 2nd Edition

[capnstak]

In the last game I played with my friends Germany gained a lot of IPC points from taking neutral territories and most of France. On G2 he then invades Russia, gains more IPCs and by G3 or G4 he took Stalingrad. He seemed to focused on the southern root to Moscow because Leningrad held firm and is well defended (depending on the buys).

Speaking of purchases, what would be the best to prevent or slow the German Rush? Mechs can reach the front faster (we allow them to blitz without a tank, a personal rule), Art can give the bonus and inf can take the hits when stacked. What should be my purchases for R1 and R2 and where should I concentrate them?

[Eqqman]

I’ll be curious to hear what other people say.  I had actually thought it was impossible for Russia to buy anything that would allow them to defend against Germany going heavy ground, but I found this was not the case.  What happens is that a Russian stack has to retreat every turn in the face of a German stack that has 95% - 100% odds of victory.  Then in the turn that the Russians fall back to Moscow and you get another 10 Inf buy there (R5), suddenly the odds flip and Germany has a 0% chance of victory over the Russian stack.  This assumes that the Russians abandon Leningrad, buy max Infantry every turn, and don’t waste a lot of men trying to leave a guy behind in every space they are abandoning.  This doesn’t take into account the effects of SBR on Russian factories or a potential further reduction of income by having Japan gobble up Siberia.

I think it is possible to buy units that will slow the Axis advance in Europe by a few turns, but doing so means that once they break your line (and they will) you don’t have enough left to hold Moscow, so the trade-off may not be worth it.  It will depend on what the rest of the Allies did to make Russia’s sacrifice worth it.

EDIT: Whoops, I forgot the is the Europe-only thread, so ignore the stuff about Japan.  Since you won’t be likely to lose the NO from holding Novosibirsk for quite some time, it is very easy to turtle Russia up with max Infantry buys that will delay the loss of Moscow for quite some time.

[Zhukov44]

@capnstak:

Speaking of purchases, what would be the best to prevent or slow the German Rush? Mechs can reach the front faster (we allow them to blitz without a tank, a personal rule), Art can give the bonus and inf can take the hits when stacked. What should be my purchases for R1 and R2 and where should I concentrate them?

The game is so variable that its difficult to give concrete advice.  It should be hard for Germany to get Stalingrad before G6.  If that is happening, it sounds like Russia is unwisely dividing its forces.  It sounds like Germany concentrates in East Poland on G2 and then Western Ukraine on G3.  What Russia needs to do is concentrate on Belorussia and Western Ukraine on R1.  Make sure every possible unit can hit East Poland…  If Russia doesn’t have odds to effectively counterattack East Poland on R2, then fall back to Bryansk.  From there, you might be able to hold Bryansk (which makes things awkward for Germany) or you might have to fall back to Moscow.  Assuming Allies are playing smart, Germany must capture Moscow.  If they can’t get Moscow within a certain amount of time (I’d say G8 or G9 at latest, and that is late), then against a strong Allies they are likely to lose, because by that time USA should be a beast.

Even if Germany captures Moscow on G5 or G6, Allies have a good chance of winning anyway–though certainly not as good a chance as they have if Russia holds out till G8 or G9.

Generally, if it’s a dedicated “Barbarossa”, then Russia’s best bet is buy infantry–all inf every round.  But it depends–sometimes you will want artillery, sometimes mech, sometimes even tanks.

[capnstak]

It was suggested that I just buy inf all the time, but where do I deploy them? Do I just have them hold up in their respective cities and wait for the onslaught to come? If he can take and reach Stalingrad by G4 before, if I were stack inf than would the probability be in my favor (I say probability because everyone gets bad dice)?

[Eqqman]

@capnstak:

It was suggested that I just buy inf all the time, but where do I deploy them?

Pretty much stack in Moscow and then place anything over that in Novgorod or Ukraine.  But they don’t get left there, when Germany moves up enough men to defeat your stack, you have to pull out.  If you went all or nearly all Infantry you will have a stack of 70+ units in Moscow by the time Germany moves next to it.  That should take you past G6.  I wouldn’t worry about losing Stalingrad before this as it is too far away.

Because of this problem I think Russia is one of the least interesting countries to play… you very seldom get any options beyond constant retreating.

[capnstak]

Okay, i pulled all my units back to Moscow and bought nothing but infantry (except for 2 AAAs). Do I just wait for the Western front to be opened and hold up until then? Is there any chance I can build a counter force and push back? it’s the beginning of G5 now, so maybe have a force up by R6 or R7?

[Eqqman]

What happens next is entirely dependent on the rest of the Allied strategy.  By round 6 USA/UK should have done something that will warrant Axis attention.

If the UK held on to the Middle East, then you can use ICs in Egypt, Iraq, or Persia to dribble up units to help the Russians hold the south.  Usually you might be doing this by vectoring them over to the Ukraine.  You can also produce Fighters that then get transferred up to Moscow.  UK air based there can provide the attack power for Infantry or Mech coming up from the south, while being available on defense for the capital.

There (may) be a US fleet off Gibraltar or in the channel.  If Germany still has some navy or a lot of planes, or if Italy is too tough to attack in the short-term, then you may be stuck a few turns until you can build up your power some more.  Be sure the Allies are holding both Gibraltar and Morocco so you can deny Italy 2 of its NOs (this assumes you hold Egypt).  If the Allies decide to attack Italy, you can park your fleet inside the Med next to Gibraltar and place an Air Base there to support a Fighter scramble.  If the Axis took Morocco and the Allies took it back, awesome!  Build an Air Base in Morocco as well and you can have up to 6 Fighters scrambling on defense, this is 2 IPC less than the price of two Carriers, and the two Carriers only give you 4 Fighters on defense.  With your capital ships sitting there you deny Italy another one of its NOs, in the meantime, you can dribble in some subs to keep the Italian fleet down and convoy away their money.  If the Axis start adding Destroyers to the Med, you have all those Fighters there to support Allied Subs on the attack.

If you’re not going to hit the Med, then you either need to get the US fleet into the Channel so that the UK can make direct drops into France, or you have to move up to Norway.  If you go the Norway route, then I recommend that the UK places an IC in Iceland so that the USA can shuck troops E. USA -> Iceland -> Norway rather than E. USA -> Gibraltar -> Norway.  Shucking through Iceland is more efficient since you won’t have to leave ships behind to guard the TTs at the halfway point like you do going through Gibraltar.  Landing in Norway also takes a German NO, so it effectively cancels out the loss of Leningrad.  This also provides more immediate relief to Russia since German units will have to be left behind to counter the Allied presence there.  If you can hold Norway right after taking it, build a Naval Base there at a minimum so your TTs can head back to Iceland in 1 move in future turns.  Then you can make an IC later.  If it’s safe, you can have the first batch of TTs go to Gibraltar in order to still be able to reach E. USA in two moves.

You’ll have to be very leery of what Russia does while this is going on.  Once you’re down to just having Moscow and Stalingrad as your ICs, you can keep stacking Infantry in Moscow while you place Mech in Stalingrad.  Possibly you can start to work a little ART into the mix.  Use your air power in making local counter-attacks on places that only require you to commit about the same amount of troops that Germany will lose.  If you have access to a battle calculator you can figure out exactly how many men you can spare to make counterattacks while giving yourself 95%+ odds at holding Moscow.  But if a German stack is right outside Moscow, I think the general advice for Russia is to continue to turtle as much as you can until you have enough units that you can challenge the German stack directly.

[capnstak]

He Eggman, just to follow the Current situation look up the other thread I have about European Stalemate. And thanks for the Help!  :lol:

[Sire Fred]

Tanks for Russia!

Last game I played with the Allies, my strategy with Russia was to buy six tanks a turn ( 3 to Novgorod, 3 to Ukraine) as well as pulling every inf, mech arty, tanks in Belarus or Western Ukraine to strike back at a German push in East Poland. By doing this, I hoped to delay Barbarossa until G4, thus buying time for the Siberian troops to get to Moscow (First 6 reinforcement R6).

At first, it worked perfectly. My opponent could not start invading Russia without fear of being killed by my counterstrike. He launched a heavy Barb G4. I stricked him with everything I had and got really good dices but stayed in the fight for too long, taking Eastern Poland with 8 tanks who got smashed by Luftwaffe/Wehrmacht attacks G5. My initial idea was to not take the territory and retreat to Western Ukraine under Inf cover but I’ve been to greedy. My opponent was at Moscow’s gates by G7 and I attacked him again, this time with bad dices, and lost too many men so he got my capital G8 (still won the game by dominating the Pacific and preventing Germany from taking Cairo). My Siberian troops doesn’t made it back also because I choose wrongly to annoy Japan with them.

I think that my initial idea of buying tanks for Russia, start retreating R4 (mixed with full Inf/Art buys in Moscow) and catch with the Siberians R6 is a good one. Had I not been so aggressive, it would have worked better for Russia. What do you think of this strategy?

[BJCard]

While I admire Russia’s aggressiveness, I am not sure buying 6 tanks per turn is viable against an experienced Germany.

First off, Germany can build more tanks than you can. 
Second, Germany shouldn’t worry about Russia’s counterattack- in fact they should set up a ‘counter-counter’ because if Russia wins the counter, she will have a small stack of tanks that are vulnerable to German reinforcements and German Air.  Once Russia’s tank stack is gone- its army is broken. (barring amazing dice).

[Sire Fred]

That’s what happened. I got counter/countered because I stayed in the fight for too long in Eastern Poland instead of retreating my troops to Western Ukraine. I think that my opponent is an experienced one but that he spent too much IPC in my opinion in the first German turns to counter UK Europe with Bombers and Subs buys (altough the planes helped a lot to take Moskow).

My last attack on Briansk shouldn’t have been made. He had not enough ground troops to take Moskow the following turn. I liked a lot to be aggressive with the Red Army but that last attack wasn’t necessary at all. A power trip of mine I think. :evil:

[Sire Fred]

Tanks buys can be great also to strike Germany hard if they try Sealion (successful or not).

[Sire Fred]

@Sire:

…and catch with the Siberians R6 is a good one.

Sorry guys. Should have posted all these posts on the A&A Global 1940.

[capnstak]

What are some possible moves or buys that germany could do in response to turtling?

One suggestion that I know of is to starve Russia of IPC by using mechs.

What esle could they do? I ask b/c I want to know how best respond to his purchases. I doubt Germany will buy air for Russia has 6 AAAs. However they could use them for the defense of Norway or Normandy.

Thoughts?

[theROCmonster]

This is going off the assumption that Germany buys all navy first turn. Germany should buy 7 arty 12 infantry with her 66 dollars second turn and 10 arty 1 mech 1 tank turn 2. turn 3 you’ll have 52 so that is 13 mech. turn 4 will be 11 mech 1 tank. You are setting yourself up for a turn 7 take of Moscow, and a turn 4 DOW on Russia, so now you buy all planes on turn 5. you will have 50 so you can buy either 5 fighters, or 4 bombers. Turn 6 you will have Ukraine so you can buy 3 tanks there. Depending on what Russia did, you should have taken lenningrad turn 5 and now you should have 60 to spend. So after 3 tanks you will have 42 left. That is 3 bombers and 2 infantry. Moscow should now be a 100% chance to take. Try it out and see if it works for you.

BTW. my strategy is to have all my infantry and arty to be outside the gates of moscow on turn 6. Everything that was purchased from turn 2-6 (minus the 2 infantry) will be able to hit Moscow on turn 7. He literally has no way to defend against this. The Europe board, IMO, isn’t won taking Moscow, but taking Egypt. So GL there! :)

[manstein39]

@theROCmonster:

This is going off the assumption that Germany buys all navy first turn. Germany should buy 7 arty 12 infantry with her 66 dollars second turn and 10 arty 1 mech 1 tank turn 2. turn 3 you’ll have 52 so that is 13 mech. turn 4 will be 11 mech 1 tank. You are setting yourself up for a turn 7 take of Moscow, and a turn 4 DOW on Russia, so now you buy all planes on turn 5. you will have 50 so you can buy either 5 fighters, or 4 bombers. Turn 6 you will have Ukraine so you can buy 3 tanks there. Depending on what Russia did, you should have taken lenningrad turn 5 and now you should have 60 to spend. So after 3 tanks you will have 42 left. That is 3 bombers and 2 infantry. Moscow should now be a 100% chance to take. Try it out and see if it works for you.

BTW. my strategy is to have all my infantry and arty to be outside the gates of moscow on turn 6. Everything that was purchased from turn 2-6 (minus the 2 infantry) will be able to hit Moscow on turn 7. He literally has no way to defend against this. The Europe board, IMO, isn’t won taking Moscow, but taking Egypt. So GL there! :)

It looks like you won’t be able to hit Moscow until turn 8 with those builds.  The 10 arty  you build on turn 3 will not reach Bryanks until turn 7, as well as part of your turn 1 build which has to start in West Germany.

[atease]

@manstein39:

@theROCmonster:

This is going off the assumption that Germany buys all navy first turn. Germany should buy 7 arty 12 infantry with her 66 dollars second turn and 10 arty 1 mech 1 tank turn 2. turn 3 you’ll have 52 so that is 13 mech. turn 4 will be 11 mech 1 tank. You are setting yourself up for a turn 7 take of Moscow, and a turn 4 DOW on Russia, so now you buy all planes on turn 5. you will have 50 so you can buy either 5 fighters, or 4 bombers. Turn 6 you will have Ukraine so you can buy 3 tanks there. Depending on what Russia did, you should have taken lenningrad turn 5 and now you should have 60 to spend. So after 3 tanks you will have 42 left. That is 3 bombers and 2 infantry. Moscow should now be a 100% chance to take. Try it out and see if it works for you.

BTW. my strategy is to have all my infantry and arty to be outside the gates of moscow on turn 6. Everything that was purchased from turn 2-6 (minus the 2 infantry) will be able to hit Moscow on turn 7. He literally has no way to defend against this. The Europe board, IMO, isn’t won taking Moscow, but taking Egypt. So GL there! :)

It looks like you won’t be able to hit Moscow until turn 8 with those builds.  The 10 arty  you build on turn 3 will not reach Bryanks until turn 7, as well as part of your turn 1 build which has to start in West Germany.

He bought those artys on turn 2 - they will be in front of Moscow by turn 6 on my count.

[theROCmonster]

Correct, the arty buy was on T2.

[JDOW]

@Eggman:

What happens next is entirely dependent on the rest of the Allied strategy.  By round 6 USA/UK should have done something that will warrant Axis attention.
[…]

Hey eggman,

I read you post and I my reply might sound offending to you, sorry about that in advance. I honestly have to say that I have serious doubts if your advice would work.
have you ever tried these strategies in real games? Some of them sound of bit theoretical to me.

If the Axis took Morocco and the Allies took it back, awesome!  Build an Air Base in Morocco as well and you can have up to 6 Fighters scrambling on defense, this is 2 IPC less than the price of two Carriers, and the two Carriers only give you 4 Fighters on defense

1. why 6 fighters? Where is the second airbase?
2. A carrier also has a defense value of 2 and can take tow hits.

If the UK held on to the Middle East, then you can use ICs in Egypt, Iraq, or Persia to dribble up units to help the Russians hold the south.  Usually you might be doing this by vectoring them over to the Ukraine.  You can also produce Fighters that then get transferred up to Moscow.  UK air based there can provide the attack power for Infantry or Mech coming up from the south, while being available on defense for the capital.

Have you ever tried that? When should these forces arrive? You can only build 3 units in egypt and only after UK put an IC there (which cannot happen in round 1) –> You usually can just start to produce on round 3 but still have to fight Italy in northern Africa. But even if you defeat them quickly. You can produce 3 units which still have to fight through iraq. So how many units arrived in your games in Ukraine and in which round?

If you’re not going to hit the Med, then you either need to get the US fleet into the Channel so that the UK can make direct drops into France, or you have to move up to Norway.  If you go the Norway route, then I recommend that the UK places an IC in Iceland so that the USA can shuck troops E. USA -> Iceland -> Norway rather than E. USA -> Gibraltar -> Norway.  Shucking through Iceland is more efficient since you won’t have to leave ships behind to guard the TTs at the halfway point like you do going through Gibraltar.  Landing in Norway also takes a German NO, so it effectively cancels out the loss of Leningrad.  This also provides more immediate relief to Russia since German units will have to be left behind to counter the Allied presence there.  If you can hold Norway right after taking it, build a Naval Base there at a minimum so your TTs can head back to Iceland in 1 move in future turns.  Then you can make an IC later.  If it’s safe, you can have the first batch of TTs go to Gibraltar in order to still be able to reach E. USA in two moves.

According to my knowledge you cannot build an IC on iceland because it (a) does not have an IPC value of 2 and (b) is an island where ICs cannot be build by the rules (except England and Australia).
Furthermore:
How should the UK IC help US troops being transported quicker?
Why naval base in Norway? You can hit Norway from SZ 125.

I am sorry for being so critical but this sounds a bit off from reality to me.

Cheers

[JDOW]

I reread the post again.

Re airbase Gib/Morocco: I guess you suggested to build 2 Airbases there.
Re iceland: I guess you meant Naval instead of IC?