Agreed.
American Entry
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@Imperious:
“President Wilson went before Congress on February 3 to announce that he had severed diplomatic relations with Germany. However, he refrained from asking for a declaration of war because he doubted that the American public would support him unless there was ample proof that Germany intended to attack U.S. ships with no warning. Wilson left open the possibility of negotiating with Germany if its submarines refrained from attacking American shipping. Nevertheless, throughout February and March 1917, German submarines targeted and sunk several American ships, and many American passengers and seamen died.”
So it was the direct cause.
Lol. Did you even read what you quoted? He wanted proof that the Germans would attack Ami shipping before before asking for war, and the Germans gave it to him by attacking “throughout February and March” When did Wilson get the telegram from the Brits? LATE FEBRUARY.
The national archive source I quoted in a post above stated that the british waited for intelligence reasons AND to capitalize on growing anti-german sentiment. Why was the sentiment growing? Could it have had anything to do with the fact that Germans were attacking throughout February, well before the telegram was released?
@Imperious:
“The British had initially not shared the news of the Zimmerman Telegram with U.S. officials, because they did not want the Germans to discover that British code breakers had cracked the German code. However, following Germany�s resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare in February, the British decided to use the note to help sway American official and public opinion to join the war. The British finally forwarded the intercept to Wilson on February 24. The American press carried the story the following week.”
Now you know what Wilson didn’t mention the note, because it would tip the hat to Germany and give them the knowledge that British had broken the German code.
Even though the speech was made a month after the American public ALREADY knew about the note? Did you read the speech? Did you even glance at it? April 2nd, 1917. The note was released on March 1.
@Imperious:
"Despite the shocking news of the Zimmerman Telegram, Wilson still hesitated to ask for a declaration of war. He waited until March 20 before convening a Cabinet meeting to broach the matter–almost a month after he had first seen the telegram. The precise reasons for Wilson�s decision to choose war in 1917 remain the subject of debate among historians, especially in light of his efforts to avoid war in 1915 after the sinking of the British passenger liners Lusitania and Arabic, which had led to the deaths of 131 Americans.
Hmm, I wonder if that cabinet meeting is the same one I referenced in the the quote from the American Anthem textbook, the meeting that was called after the sinking of American ships in mid-march, by guess what! German subs engaging in unrestricted sub warfare.
@Imperious:
However, by 1917, the continued submarine attacks on American merchant and passenger ships, and the �Zimmerman Telegram�s� implied threat of a German attack on the United States, had served to sway American public opinion in support of a declaration of war."
Note that the sub attacks are mentioned right alongside (and even before) the telegram in the second quote. Note also that this refers only to public opinion. Yet, the president’s speech, asking for war does not mention the note. The Zimmermann note is important for American public support of the war. And of course public opinion is relevant in deciding to go to war. But the note is not the critical factor in causing the US leaders to decide to go to war.
@Imperious:
The Note was the final straw. It is not the case that if the note never occurred, that with certainty, the US would enter the war.
So what? It’s also not the case that if the note never occurred, the US would have certianly NOT entered the war.
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You are the one who is dancing around the fact that the UK withheld the note in order to allow anti-german sentiment to grow because of the effect unrestricted sub warfare (USW from now on) would have on American opinion. The note being the last straw does not mean it was the only or even the most important cause.
But it was the final cause leading to war. It was the final straw just like i have been saying all along.
Funny how you invent new points after the ones i shot down. rolleyes I only said the Zimmerman note was the vital influence to draw US into war. Now if you want to create new arguments in an effort to bury the truth that the Zimmerman Note was the key factor and not UNRESTRICTED SUBMARINE WARFARE, OR THIS NEW THING YOU INVENT. It is common knowledge that what triggered the war was the note and you have not once acknowledge that fact, and instead harp on other factors that DID NOT DIRECTLY TRIGGER THE WAR. I FIND THAT AMUSING.
I invented nothing new. I cite numerous sources that show USW as the main concern of the US. You cite for your view “common knowledge.” That is funny. I literally lol’ed. Only someone as delusional as you could think you are making progress at shooting my points down. The last straw only matters if there were other straws before it.
Sure you did. You fail to acknowledge that the Note was the final straw and the key influence to trigger war. You still defend other things before it or after the note.
“In an effort to protect their intelligence from detection and to capitalize on growing anti-German sentiment in the United States, the British waited until February 24 to present the telegram to Woodrow Wilson.”
from
http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/zimmermann/Why was there "growing anti-german sentiment? Did anything important happen before that? Perhaps on January 31st? Hmm.
That does not mean the note was not the final straw that triggered the war. If you got one old women who hates Germany because of Jan 31st you got increased sentiment, but you don’t have the trigger. The note was the final trigger. Get over it.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:23:02 pm
sure ANY History BOOK WILL TELL YOU THE NOTE WAS THE TRIGGER THAT CAUSED THE WAR. Please find one that says it was not the note, but unrestricted submarine warfare or pancakes or whatever.Already did. I quoted from it. Here’s another:
"In mid-march 1917, German U-boats sank three American merchant ships. Outraged about the violation of American neutrality, President Wilson called a meeting with his cabinet. Each cabinet member argued for war. On April 2, Wilson asked Congress to declare war on Germany to “make the world safe for democracy.” -American Anthem, Holt-Rinehart-Winston, 2007
If we put any more nails in your argument’s coffin the price of steel will get out of hand.
Couldn’t find one about pancakes, sorry. I don’t feel that bad though since I never made any claims about pancakes. Until just now I suppose.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:23:02 pm
So i guess you cant read then. read the words “The direct threat was the possibility of ceding former Mexican areas back” The threat of aggression and not actual a realistic outcome of what Mexico was capable of was the key factor. It was what Germany was capable of doing in order to win the war, which became a direct threat to USA. The actual threat of “Mexico” did not worry America, but if Germany won the war they would be prepared to follow up with partitioning the states to foreign powers.The fact that you assume that Germany winning the war (unless Germany or Mexico occupied American possessions they would be hard pressed to force them to give them up) means it would be willing or able to force the United States to cede territory to Mexico is so asinine that I am not even going to waste time asking for the source of that “information.”
The fact that i assume Germany winning the war? Where do you get this from? How bout assume the note was the final straw that triggered US entry…as you well know.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:23:02 pm
Quote
Let’s look at the italicized section (I added those italics btw). When did the Zimmermann note come out? Fact is, it was not given to Wilson until Feb 24, and not released to the public until March 1.Strange how the US severed diplomatic relations with Germany on the 3rd of February, at least 3 weeks before the public or even Wilson knew the telegram existed. Strange also how this was just three days after the declaration of USW. Severing of diplomatic relations isn’t war, but it is a pretty huge step, don’t you agree?
Funny how you invented yet another salient point about what caused the war, rather than admitting that the Note caused the war. That white elephant must be getting heavy and i won’t relieve you of it’s burden.
I’ve already admitted the note was relevant. But to say it caused the war for the US is standing on shaky, and at the moment, unsourced or dubiously sourced ground. Got anything substantial?
Yes the note was the final cause that triggered US entry in the war. To argue against that fact for 30 posts seems like a failing proposition no?
Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:23:02 pm
http://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/03/feb-3-1917-u-s-breaks-relations-with-germany-plans-to-declare-war/Quote
Don’t forget to read this part:
“Hollweg�s announcement prompted Wilson to break relations three days later.
Wilson and Congress moved toward declaring war over the next two months. Their decisions were also influenced by a telegram sent by Arthur Zimmerman, the German foreign minister, to Germany�s Mexican ambassador.”
LOLOL
Their decisions were also influenced by a telegram sent by Arthur Zimmerman
Case closed. Check and Mate.You say I am not able to read. Look at the part where it says “also influenced,” meaning there were other influences. If the note was the main cause, wouldn’t it be written about as such rather than an “also” afterthought? It takes a truly remarkable mind to take that to mean that that sentence says the telegram caused the war. You ignore the statement that the US was moving toward war before the telegram was even revealed to the US.
Dear Santa: The final straw that drew US into the war could be counted but with only one event: the Zimmerman note. Other influences also contributed, but the Note was the final straw that leads US into war. Get over it.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:23:02 pm
Quote
So yes, the note mattered, but as the above site shows the redeclaration of USW might not have been the last straw, but it was a bigger pile of straw than the note was. If the note is supremely important, why did another event cause severing of relations (including sending the German ambassador home) and the movement toward war BEFORE the note was released? � If the note was supremely important, why does The Beard’s Basic History of the United States (Doubleday, 1944) not mention the telegram at all but DOES mention the six torpedoed American ships in Feb and March 1917 (That’s the book I happen to have on the shelf at the moment on the topic).Because that book was written in 1944 ( during ww2) and real Historians have had time to sort out the actual influences. It takes many decades of reflection to sort out the causes, and everybody knows the Note was the major contribution. Just acknowledge that and move on.
I was pretty sure you’d come up with this lame and arrogant excuse, that since the book is old the authors can’t possibly know what they are talking about. Now I quoted from a book from 2007 that states USW caused the war. Is that not recent enough? Perhaps next time I will quote a book from the future?
You can quote anybody saying anything, but the Note was the final straw that triggered US entry into the war. Get over it.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:23:02 pm
Quote
http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/usawardeclaration.htmFirst of all, a quick search of the document shows at least 8 mentions of “submarine.” How many COMBINED mentions of Zimmerman(n), note, or telegram do we find? Zero. Zilch. Nada. This is the president’s speech asking congress for war. If the note was more important than USW wouldn’t it make sense that the note would be mentioned somewhere close to as much as USW? Maybe just once? But it isn’t mentioned. Not once. Was it relevant in turning public opinion against the Germans? Sure. Was it the last straw, the one thing that took it over the edge? Possibly. But was it the most important cause? If we are to answer honestly after carefully looking at the evidence, the answer is no.
This is why you should not be involved in understanding History. The Note was a sensitive paper which got intercepted by the British. So to acknowledge the code was broken would subvert future interceptions.
Oh the delicious, succulent irony. This is so rich I will need to skip dessert for a long time.
You claim he would not have mentioned the note because it would have subverted future interceptions. You fail to realize (OMG this is too good! I can’t contain myself!) that the note was already released to the public A WHOLE MONTH before this speech! So he did not mention it in the speech because he needed to keep it secret even though it was available to the public for a month?
Link to substantiate the public knew the British broke the German code?
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Lol. Did you even read what you quoted? He wanted proof that the Germans would attack Ami shipping before before asking for war, and the Germans gave it to him by attacking “throughout February and March” When did Wilson get the telegram from the Brits? LATE FEBRUARY.
The national archive source I quoted in a post above stated that the british waited for intelligence reasons AND to capitalize on growing anti-german sentiment. Why was the sentiment growing? Could it have had anything to do with the fact that Germans were attacking throughout February, well before the telegram was released?
Sentiment was not the trigger that got US into war. It was the Note. Get over it.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:40:39 pm
“The British had initially not shared the news of the Zimmerman Telegram with U.S. officials, because they did not want the Germans to discover that British code breakers had cracked the German code. However, following Germany�s resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare in February, the British decided to use the note to help sway American official and public opinion to join the war. The British finally forwarded the intercept to Wilson on February 24. The American press carried the story the following week.”Now you know what Wilson didn’t mention the note, because it would tip the hat to Germany and give them the knowledge that British had broken the German code.
Even though the speech was made a month after the American public ALREADY knew about the note? Did you read the speech? Did you even glance at it? April 2nd, 1917. The note was released on March 1.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:40:39 pm
"Despite the shocking news of the Zimmerman Telegram, Wilson still hesitated to ask for a declaration of war. He waited until March 20 before convening a Cabinet meeting to broach the matter–almost a month after he had first seen the telegram. The precise reasons for Wilson�s decision to choose war in 1917 remain the subject of debate among historians, especially in light of his efforts to avoid war in 1915 after the sinking of the British passenger liners Lusitania and Arabic, which had led to the deaths of 131 Americans.Hmm, I wonder if that cabinet meeting is the same one I referenced in the the quote from the American Anthem textbook, the meeting that was called after the sinking of American ships in mid-march, by guess what! German subs engaging in unrestricted sub warfare.
Yes and the Note was the final straw that triggered US entry. Without it, it was not clear if he could get a DOW.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:40:39 pm
However, by 1917, the continued submarine attacks on American merchant and passenger ships, and the �Zimmerman Telegram�s� implied threat of a German attack on the United States, had served to sway American public opinion in support of a declaration of war."Note that the sub attacks are mentioned right alongside (and even before) the telegram in the second quote. Note also that this refers only to public opinion. Yet, the president’s speech, asking for war does not mention the note. The Zimmermann note is important for American public support of the war. But it’s not the critical factor in causing the US leaders to decide to go to war.
The note was the last straw that caused US entry into the war. Get over it.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:40:39 pm
The Note was the final straw. It is not the case that if the note never occurred, that with certainty, the US would enter the war.
So what? It’s also not the case that if the note never occurred, the US would have certianly NOT entered the war.
Well now you finally agree. I guess you learned something…finally.
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In January of 1917, British cryptographers deciphered a telegram from German Foreign Minister Arthur Zimmermann to the German Minister to Mexico, von Eckhardt, offering United States territory to Mexico in return for joining the German cause. This message helped draw the United States into the war and thus changed the course of history. The telegram had such an impact on American opinion that, according to David Kahn, author of The Codebreakers, “No other single cryptanalysis has had such enormous consequences.” It is his opinion that “never before or since has so much turned upon the solution of a secret message.” In an effort to protect their intelligence from detection and to capitalize on growing anti-German sentiment in the United States, the British waited until February 24 to present the telegram to Woodrow Wilson. The American press published news of the telegram on March 1. On April 6, 1917, the United States Congress formally declared war on Germany and its allies.
Funny how it does not mention that USW was the cause that drew the US into war. Yep it was that darn note.
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The Zimmerman telegram appears to be the evidence needed to bring the United States into the war and save the beleaguered Allies. Select your course of action.
Course of Action # 1
Immediately reveal the Zimmermann telegram to the United States
Consequences:
• The Swedes, whose cable Room 40 was not to read, would be deeply angered.
• The Americans, whose cable Room 40 was not to read, would be deeply angered.
• Germany would be keenly aware that the British had cracked the code and would stop using it resulting in a serious intelligence setback for the British.
• The Americans might dismiss the telegram as British propaganda aimed at bringing the United States into the war.Course of Action # 2
Keep the information a British intelligence secret
Consequences:
• The Swedes and Americans will have no idea that messages sent on their telegraphic links are being decoded by the British.
• Germany will continue to use the code because they will remain unaware that it has been broken by the British.
• The Allies who are in desperate need of vital American aide will have to wait for unrestricted submarine warfare to draw the United States into the conflict.Course of Action # 3
Wait and see if the Feb 1, start of unrestricted German submarine warfare brings the United States into the conflict. While waiting, perfect the translation of the Zimmerman telegram. The delay would also allow British intelligence time to contact an agent in Mexico City and try to obtain a copy of the actual Western Union telegraph sent to German Ambassador to Mexico Eckhardt. Such a copy, if obtained, could be revealed as the source of the information thus protecting the efforts of Room 40. Such a copy would also help prove that the telegram was legitimate and not mere propaganda. If America fails to enter the war quickly the Zimmermann telegram should then be revealed in the hope that it brings the United States into the war.
Consequences:
• The Swedes and Americans will not know that their telegraphic links are being decoded by the British.
• Germany will think that the telegram had been lifted from Eckhardt’s office. They will continue to use the code because they will remain unaware that it has been broken by the British.
• The Allies who are in desperate need of vital American aide will have to wait and see if unrestricted submarine warfare draws the United States into the conflict, if not hope that the revelation of the Zimmerman telegram will finally draw the US into the war. However, many Americans may remain suspicious that the telegram is nothing more than British propaganda.Select your course of action: #_____
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@Imperious:
That does not mean the note was not the final straw that triggered the war. If you got one old women who hates Germany because of Jan 31st you got increased sentiment, but you don’t have the trigger. The note was the final trigger. Get over it.
I already have:
@vonLettowVorbeck1914:It can be admitted that it was the “last straw,” but for the last straw to matter, there has to be many other straws. No one is saying the Zimmerman telegram is totally irrelevant, but please find a source (if you can) that states that as being a more important reason than USW (don’t forget that the note was sent because Germany was planning on resuming USW)
My point been that being the last straw is not the same as being the most important factor. It’s quite possible, perhaps even probable (although the sub attacks in mid-march led to the decisive cabinet meeting to resolve for war, not the telegram) that the telegram was the last straw. My point is that regardless of whether the note was the LAST straw, USW is the MOST SIGNIFICANT straw.
@Imperious:
The fact that you assume that Germany winning the war (unless Germany or Mexico occupied American possessions they would be hard pressed to force them to give them up) means it would be willing or able to force � the United States to cede territory to Mexico is so asinine that I am not even going to waste time asking for the source of that “information.”
The fact that i assume Germany winning the war? Where do you get this from? How bout assume the note was the final straw that triggered US entry…as you well know.
Learn English, especially “complementizer phrase.” You said that if Germany won the war, they would partition the states among foreign powers. I stated that it was crazy to think that a German victory (“Germany winning the war”) would lead to Germany being able or willing to actually give US territory to Mexico.
@Imperious:
Yes the note was the final cause that triggered US entry in the war. To argue against that fact for 30 posts seems like a failing proposition no?
Except my argument is not against it being the last straw. It is against it being the most important straw (factor, cause, whatever), a view which you asserted here:
@Imperious:
Something being the “last straw” is hardly the same as something being the most important factor or an even-more-than-barely-significant factor.
Right and in this case, the note was the most important factor. It caused our entry in the war. No denying that.
@Imperious:
You claim he would not have mentioned the note because it would have subverted future interceptions. You fail to realize (OMG this is too good! I can’t contain myself!) that the note was already released to the public A WHOLE MONTH before this speech! � So he did not mention it in � the speech because he needed to keep it secret even though it was available to the public for a month?
Link to substantiate the public knew the British broke the German code?
Is this even a complete thought? Or are you just so overwhelmed with your huge interpretive blunder? You said that Wilson did not mention the note because it would mean that the Germans would know the Brits could intercept. The speech was given ONE MONTH after the note was released to the public a release which ALREADY made it quite obvious their communications were being intercepted, if they didn’t already know even before March 1.
I don’t really care what the last straw is or was. What I am concerned about is your insistence that the telgram was the most important factor. There is a difference between something being the last straw and the most important straw.
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@Imperious:
In January of 1917, British cryptographers deciphered a telegram from German Foreign Minister Arthur Zimmermann to the German Minister to Mexico, von Eckhardt, offering United States territory to Mexico in return for joining the German cause. This message helped draw the United States into the war and thus changed the course of history. The telegram had such an impact on American opinion that, according to David Kahn, author of The Codebreakers, “No other single cryptanalysis has had such enormous consequences.” It is his opinion that “never before or since has so much turned upon the solution of a secret message.” In an effort to protect their intelligence from detection and to capitalize on growing anti-German sentiment in the United States, the British waited until February 24 to present the telegram to Woodrow Wilson. The American press published news of the telegram on March 1. On April 6, 1917, the United States Congress formally declared war on Germany and its allies.
Funny how it does not mention that USW was the cause that drew the US into war. Yep it was that darn note.
Once again you show your inability to read critically. It “helped.” Nowhere does it say it was the most important. It does suggest that David Kahn says that it was the most important secret message in history. But that is not the same as saying it was the most important cause of US entry, unless you count German sinking of neutral US ships as a secret message.
Funny how you didn’t address this:
"In mid-march 1917, German U-boats sank three American merchant ships. Outraged about the violation of American neutrality, President Wilson called a meeting with his cabinet. Each cabinet member argued for war. On April 2, Wilson asked Congress to declare war on Germany to “make the world safe for democracy.” -American Anthem, Holt-Rinehart-Winston, 2007
I’m going to bed. I have to work early. I eagerly await your futile attempt at dismissing the above historical source. Not only is it clear that the U-boat warfare was the most important cause, if I cared enough to argue it, it seems also that it might have been the last straw too. But I am satisfied with repeatedly showing Unrestricted Submarine Warfare being the MAIN cause of US entry into the war according to several historical sources, while all you have shown was that the telegram was of at least some, perhaps much, importance (which I have never argued).
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One more for good measure:
http://history.state.gov/milestones/1914-1920/WWI
“Germany’s resumption of submarine attacks on passenger and merchant ships in 1917 was the primary motivation behind Wilson’s decision to lead the United States into World War I.”
Funny how that comes from the SAME SOURCE you quoted in post 27. That’s not just unsporting. That’s unethical, unless you somehow didn’t see it.
[/“debate”]
I’ll get back to the possiblity of variable US entry (which I find really cool and adding of realism to the game tomorrow)
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My point been that being the last straw is not the same as being the most important factor. It’s quite possible, perhaps even probable (although the sub attacks in mid-march led to the decisive cabinet meeting to resolve for war, not the telegram) that the telegram was the last straw. My point is that regardless of whether the note was the LAST straw, USW is the MOST SIGNIFICANT straw.
It was the last straw that triggered the entry of US into the war. Get over it.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 09:22:20 pm
Yes the note was the final cause that triggered US entry in the war. To argue against that fact for 30 posts seems like a failing proposition no?Except my argument is not against it being the last straw. It is against it being the most important straw (factor, cause, whatever), a view which you asserted here:
It probably was the most important straw, but my argument is that it was the final straw of which you argue against in 30 posts.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 03:20:04 pm
Quote
Something being the “last straw” is hardly the same as something being the most important factor or an even-more-than-barely-significant factor.
Right and in this case, the note was the most important factor. It caused our entry in the war. No denying that.Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 09:22:20 pm
Quote
You claim he would not have mentioned the note because it would have subverted future interceptions. You fail to realize (OMG this is too good! I can’t contain myself!) that the note was already released to the public A WHOLE MONTH before this speech! � So he did not mention it in � the speech because he needed to keep it secret even though it was available to the public for a month?Link to substantiate the public knew the British broke the German code?
Is this even a complete thought? Or are you just so overwhelmed with your huge interpretive blunder? You said that Wilson did not mention the note because it would mean that the Germans would know the Brits could intercept. The speech was given ONE MONTH after the note was released to the public a release which ALREADY made it quite obvious their communications were being intercepted, if they didn’t already know even before March 1.
When in doubt, create other arguments that have nothing to do with the central fact that the note was the final straw that triggered US entry, by lots of posts containing other information not related to the main argument in a simpleton attempt to overwhelm the facts with ridiculous verbal machinations. I don’t really care about anything except the fact which you argue against which is the note was the final trigger for US entry and not USW. Get over it.
I don’t really care what the last straw is or was. What I am concerned about is your insistence that the telgram was the most important factor. There is a difference between something being the last straw and the most important straw.
But my insistence was that the Note was the last straw. The most important factor was not USW. Keep arguing against that point with all sorts of posts that attempt to enlarge the argument to include other things, since the main point is true and you know it.
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Once again you show your inability to read critically. It “helped.” Nowhere does it say it was the most important. It does suggest that David Kahn says that it was the most important secret message in history. But that is not the same as saying it was the most important cause of US entry, unless you count German sinking of neutral US ships as a secret message.
But i am saying the Note was the final straw that triggered US entry. Try arguing against that. You wont. Also, when we lost two other ships before it did not trigger the war so the note was that trigger.
Funny how you didn’t address this:
"In mid-march 1917, German U-boats sank three American merchant ships. Outraged about the violation of American neutrality, President Wilson called a meeting with his cabinet. Each cabinet member argued for war. On April 2, Wilson asked Congress to declare war on Germany to “make the world safe for democracy.” -American Anthem, Holt-Rinehart-Winston, 2007
I’m going to bed. I have to work early. I eagerly await your futile attempt at dismissing the above historical source. Not only is it clear that the U-boat warfare was the most important cause, if I cared enough to argue it, it seems also that it might have been the last straw too. But I am satisfied with repeatedly showing Unrestricted Submarine Warfare being the MAIN cause of US entry into the war according to several historical sources, while all you have shown was that the telegram was of at least some, perhaps much, importance (which I have never argued).
I don’t need to address points that have little to do with the central fact that the note triggered the war, not USW. Get over it. The only way you even have any argument is to constantly throw up other ideas and avoid the central truth that the note triggered the war. That is not open to much interpretation.
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One more for good measure:
http://history.state.gov/milestones/1914-1920/WWI
“Germany’s resumption of submarine attacks on passenger and merchant ships in 1917 was the primary motivation behind Wilson’s decision to lead the United States into World War I.”
Funny how that comes from the SAME SOURCE you quoted in post 27. That’s not just unsporting. That’s unethical, unless you somehow didn’t see it.
And if you also READ THE DOCUMENT:
Wilson cited Germany’s violation of its pledge to suspend unrestricted submarine warfare in the North Atlantic and the Mediterranean, and its attempts to entice Mexico into an alliance against the United States, as his reasons for declaring war.
Funny how you left this part out of your quoted source. Funny how they list the note second meaning it was the final influence to trigger war.
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Regarding the Zimmerman Note:
More than anything else, it hardened the peace-loving American people to the conviction that war with Germany was an absolutely necessary step.
http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/zimmermann.htm
Some of those in the United States who still held out for neutrality at first claimed the telegram was a fake. This notion was dispelled two days later, when Zimmermann himself confirmed its authenticity.Public opinion in the United States now swung firmly toward American entrance into World War I. On April 2, Wilson went before Congress to deliver a message of war.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/zimmermann-telegram-published-in-united-states
Until that point, the United States had tried to remain neutral in World War I. However, the British and other allies were begging and pleading for help. Attitudes in the US were shifting towards war, and the telegram acted as a catalyst. The British capitalized on that attitude, and in a politically smart move, they showed the United States the telegram on February 24, 1917.
The United States published the telegram, making the public aware of it on March 1. The public opinion quickly became a definite pro-war. Congress officially declared war against Germany and its allies on April 6, 1917.http://library.thinkquest.org/28005/flashed/timemachine/courseofhistory/zimmerman.shtml
Balfour, knowing full well that the telegram might lead the Americans to enter the war on Britain and France’s side, had nevertheless hesitated to show it to Page. The Royal Navy admiral whose office, codenamed Room 40, had intercepted and decoded the telegram had also been wracked with doubt about what to do. Although Admiral Sir William Hall knew exactly how important the telegram was, he had to find a way to show it to the Americans without revealing that his office had broken the German codes. Once the Germans learned that their codes and ciphers were no longer secure, they would stop using them and a veritable gold mine of information would stop flowing into Hall’s office. Only once he was convinced that he had found a way to protect his precious secret did he give the telegram to Balfour.
You are now dismissed from class. None of these sources say USW was the main cause, but they do say that the note was the final cause of the US entry or they also say it was the main cause of entry.
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@Imperious:
sure ANY History BOOK WILL TELL YOU THE NOTE WAS THE TRIGGER THAT CAUSED THE WAR. Please find one that says it was not the note, but unrestricted submarine warfare or pancakes or whatever.
OMG! You hit on the REAL reason behind the US entry into WW1 IL! I remember reading a report that in the early months of 1917 Germany flooded US markets with their potato pancakes. Americans just HATED them and President Wilson had no choice but to declare war on Germany. I heard that he signed the declaration right after taking his first bite of one.
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@Imperious:
sure ANY History BOOK WILL TELL YOU THE NOTE WAS THE TRIGGER THAT CAUSED THE WAR. Please find one that says it was not the note, but unrestricted submarine warfare or pancakes or whatever.
OMG! You hit on the REAL reason behind the US entry into WW1 IL! I remember reading a report that in the early months of 1917 Germany flooded US markets with their potato pancakes. Americans just HATED them and President Wilson had no choice but to declare war on Germany. I heard that he signed the declaration right after taking his first bite of one.
Come to think of it Potato Pancake Street name in my town was changed to French Fries Drive in 1917.
Some years later it was changed to Liberty Fries Drive but that’s another story. -
@Imperious:
One more for good measure:
http://history.state.gov/milestones/1914-1920/WWI
“Germany’s resumption of submarine attacks on passenger and merchant ships in 1917 was the primary motivation behind Wilson’s decision to lead the United States into World War I.”
Funny how that comes from the SAME SOURCE you quoted in post 27. That’s not just unsporting. That’s unethical, unless you somehow didn’t see it.
And if you also READ THE DOCUMENT:
Wilson cited Germany�s violation of its pledge to suspend unrestricted submarine warfare in the North Atlantic and the Mediterranean, and its attempts to entice Mexico into an alliance against the United States, as his reasons for declaring war.
Funny how you left this part out of your quoted source. Funny how they list the note second meaning it was the final influence to trigger war.
Note the distinction I have always made. I have not cared what came last. I have cared what was most important. The first quote is a definitive statement that USW was the most important.
All your quote says is that both the telegram and USW were reasons. This I have admitted countless times. It does not say in your quote which was more important, but in mine it does. Now, if you had a quote from the same article saying that the note was more important, you might have something.
It’s pretty clear you are far from confident in your argument because I keep saying I don’t really care that it’s the last straw, only that USW is the most important factor, and over and over you keep saying it was the last straw as some sort of diversion tactic.
You keep double-talking, acting sometimes like the note being the last straw and it being the most important factor are not the same thing, and other times acting like they are the same thing: “But my insistence was that the Note was the last straw. The most important factor was not USW.”
Saying the same thing over when I am not contesting the point (that the note was the “last” straw) is starting to make you look a little crazy. � Is there someone on here arguing over and over again that its not the last straw?
Regarding the Zimmerman Note:
More than anything else, it hardened the peace-loving American people to the conviction that war with Germany was an absolutely necessary step.
http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/zimmermann.htm
Finally, you have a source that definitively states that the note was the most important factor in something. This would usually mean that at this point we would have competing, contradictory sources, in which case the debate is open and both positions are tenable. The small issue with that is that, as I have admitted, this quote only says that the note � was the critical factor in public opinion (I have already said the note was a huge propaganda victory that made the decision to go to war that US leaders made for USW reasons more palatable to the American people). No one is denying that the note had huge PO implications. But that is not the same as being the cause for the war. Public opinion is of course important, but not necessarily definitive.
That source does help your argument, however it deals more with public opinion that with the definitive reason(s) leading into war. Until you provide evidence showing that the Telegram was the most important cause for the US to go to war (not the most important cause for US public opinion to be for war, which are two separate things), the evidence supports USW as the most important cause for the US to go to war.
Some of those in the United States who still held out for neutrality at first claimed the telegram was a fake. This notion was dispelled two days later, when Zimmermann himself confirmed its authenticity.Public opinion in the United States now swung firmly toward American entrance into World War I. On April 2, Wilson went before Congress to deliver a message of war.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/zimmermann-telegram-published-in-united-states
Once again, public opinion. One thing to note is that this quote states that it swung firmly toward American entrance. Could there have been anything that swung it significantly before that? Maybe we can learn something from the sentence right before before the lines you quoted: “Germany had already aroused Wilson’s ire—and that of the American public—with its policy of unrestricted submarine warfare and its continued attacks against American ships.”
The thing about a last straw is that its often such a little thing in a long series of things that finally breaks the camel’s back. Just because the last straw is the one the breaks the back does not mean it compares in weight to the previous straws. Maybe there is � a source that definitively states the note was why the US went to war (instead of why the public became convinced they wanted war)
�  �  Until that point, the United States had tried to remain neutral in World War I. However, the British and other allies were begging and pleading for help. Attitudes in the US were shifting towards war, and the telegram acted as a catalyst. The British capitalized on that attitude, and in a politically smart move, they showed the United States the telegram on February 24, 1917.
�  �  The United States published the telegram, making the public aware of it on March 1. The public opinion quickly became a definite pro-war. Congress officially declared war against Germany and its allies on April 6, 1917.http://library.thinkquest.org/28005/flashed/timemachine/courseofhistory/zimmerman.shtml
So it seems that what the telegram did was speed things up. I have always admitted that. However, what made the attitudes shift towards war in the first place? You guessed it (or maybe you didn’t), USW. Germany knew that resuming USW would draw the US in. THAT’S WHY THEY MADE THE OFFER TO MEXICO. Imagine if you can a scenario in which Germany sent the note without engaging in USW (let’s forget for a second that the note was sent because of USW). Now imagine a situation where they engage in USW without sending the note. Which is more likely to draw the US in? I have a feeling what you will say out of stubbornness, but we both know that that is the uneducated answer.
@Imperious:
You are now dismissed from class. None of these sources say USW was the main cause, but they do say that the note was the final cause of the US entry or they also say it was the main cause of entry.
No, they deal with public opinion. An important factor to be sure, but none of what you have is as definitive as this:
http://history.state.gov/milestones/1914-1920/WWI
“Germany’s resumption of submarine attacks on passenger and merchant ships in 1917 was the primary motivation behind Wilson’s decision to lead the United States into World War I.”That makes 2 statements: 1. Wilson led USA into war; he was the primary actor in the event and 2. The primary motivation of the primary actor was submarine attacks.
There still might be some historian who states the telegram was the most important cause for war (not for public opinion being for the war, if you weren’t such a double-talker you might admit the difference). But until you supply such evidence, our viewpoints cannot be on equal evidentiary basis, as my evidence is more definitive. Keep looking if you want, but the most you can do is tie. I realize you think winning the argument is more important than the truth of the matter (your dirty tactics make that clear), so I am sorry you can’t win. Hopefully if you find your evidence, your ego can settle for both viewpoints being tenable.
But hey, at least you are citing something other than “common knowledge.” I am glad I could help introduce you to the idea of supporting claims with evidence.
Now to this one:
Balfour, knowing full well that the telegram might lead the Americans to enter the war on Britain and France�s side, had nevertheless hesitated to show it to Page. The Royal Navy admiral whose office, codenamed Room 40, had intercepted and decoded the telegram had also been wracked with doubt about what to do. Although Admiral Sir William Hall knew exactly how important the telegram was, he had to find a way to show it to the Americans without revealing that his office had broken the German codes. Once the Germans learned that their codes and ciphers were no longer secure, they would stop using them and a veritable gold mine of information would stop flowing into Hall�s office. Only once he was convinced that he had found a way to protect his precious secret did he give the telegram to Balfour.
Is that some sort of attempt to dismiss this blunder of yours, quoted below? Just admit you seriously messed up your interpretation of the note and events. You are only making things � worse for yourself.
@Imperious:
http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/usawardeclaration.htm
First of all, a quick search of the document shows at least 8 mentions of “submarine.” How many COMBINED mentions of Zimmerman(n), note, or telegram do we find? Zero. Zilch. Nada. This is the president’s speech asking congress for war. If the note was more important than USW wouldn’t it make sense that the note would be mentioned somewhere close to as much as USW? Maybe just once? But it isn’t mentioned. Not once. Was it relevant in turning public opinion against the Germans? Sure. Was it the last straw, the one thing that took it over the edge? Possibly. But was it the most important cause? If we are to answer honestly after carefully looking at the evidence, the answer is no.This is why you should not be involved in understanding History. The Note was a sensitive paper which got intercepted by the British. So to acknowledge the code was broken would subvert future interceptions. It would be the same problem if in WW2, FDR says “we broke the Japanese code because we tricked them by reporting the water tanks at Midway were out.”
Don’t just read facts without tying them together to make sense of it all.
Again, why should Wilson be afraid to mention the note when it was published in NEWSPAPERS a month before? It was no longer sensitive. The British ALREADY waited. They had ALREADY protected their source of the information.
http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/zimmermann/
“In an effort to protect their intelligence from detection and to capitalize on growing anti-German sentiment in the United States, the British waited until February 24 to present the telegram to Woodrow Wilson.”Let’s look at the chronology.
January: British discover note.
Feb 24: British release note to Wilson
March 1: Note released to the American press
March 3: Zimmermann confirms note is authentic to an american journalist
March 29: Zimmermann gives speech confirming note is genuine
April 2: Wilson addresses congress to declare war, he mentions unrestricted submarine warfare as a motivation to go to war at least 8 times, does not mention the note once.It’s absolutely absurd to think that Wilson withheld mentioning the note to protect his sources after the british gave it to him a over month before and he released it to the PRESS( the PUBLIC PRESS!) a month before. If he were to have mentioned the note would he have needed to spill how the British got it (if he even knew)? OF COURSE NOT! It was no longer sensitive. Let’s not forget the fact that Zimmermann himself confirmed the note’s authenticity twice before the speech. It was publicly released. Confirmed by its author. Somehow Wilson mentioning the note in his war speech tips to the Germans that they have a leak, but the note being in most every American newspaper one month prior to the speech doesn’t? If you think that, you underestimate us Germans. We may not be the sharpest tools in the shed, but we are sharp enough to figure that out. We know what newspapers are, and where to get them, even those of us who are not spies. � :roll:
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In summary, the evidence we have leads to the conclusion that unrestricted submarine warfare (USW to save my fingers) was the most significant/important cause of the US entry into World War I, while the Zimmermann telegram probably sped the US entry in that it had significant effects on strengthening public opinion for the war in addition to what USW was doing to American public opinion before and after the note’s release.
http://history.state.gov/milestones/1914-1920/WWI
Germany’s resumption of submarine attacks on passenger and merchant ships in 1917 was the primary motivation behind Wilson’s decision to lead the United States into World War I.
There it is in black and white. Wilson led the US into war, and he did so because of USW.
In mid-march 1917, German U-boats sank three American merchant ships. Outraged about the violation of American neutrality, President Wilson called a meeting with his cabinet. Each cabinet member argued for war. On April 2, Wilson asked Congress to declare war on Germany to "make the world safe for democracy.
-American Anthem, Holt-Rinehart-Winston, 2007
It was sub attacks that caused Wilson to call the meeting in which the cabinet resolved for war.
Wilson’s speech to Congress, Apr. 2, 1917
http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/usawardeclaration.htmIf there is a mention of the note in Wilson’s speech as to why the US needed to go to war, I couldn’t find it. On the other hand, submarines are mentioned at least 8 times, and it doesn’t take a doctorate in English to see that unrestricted submarine warfare is the theme of the speech.
Explaining the absence of mention of the note in the speech being because the note was a sensitive document and such mention would tip to the Germans that there was a leak is an exceedingly poor argument. The Germans had several opportunities to know that the note had gotten out, most obviously the publishing of the note in American newspapers after March 1. Not only that, Zimmermann himself confirmed the note’s authenticity at least twice publicly before Wilson’s speech. The only thing Wilson could possibly have wanted to protect was how exactly the British got the note (if he even knew how they got it), and it was hardly necessary to give away those secrets when the note was publicly confirmed to be true by Zimmermann himself.
So we need another reason, a legitimate reason, for why the note was not mentioned, otherwise it is evidence supporting (although not as slam-dunk as the first quote at top) Â that USW was the most important cause for the US to go to war.
Until you provide definitive evidence stating that the note was the most important cause as to why the US went to war, I don’t really have much more to say since I have already firmly established my viewpoint. There is plenty of room for other tenable viewpoints, if you have definitive evidence for them. If you keep posting on the topic without such evidence, I will try to ignore  such baiting and misdirection, but to be honest I may just bite if it gets too juicy. I really hope you will actually just provide real definitive evidence or gracefully bow out though, not that I have much hope since you ignored a quote that definitively supports my argument while quoting from the same article.
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Initially, both sides will attempt to blockade the other by blocking passage of ships, or sinking them mid passage. All of this affects American attitudes, including the Allies stopping American ships sailing to Germany.
This seems like an interesting dynamic if the a rule like the munitions one you posted is introduced in some fashion.
The Germans would likely be in a position where they can only stop transports by sinking, whereas the Brits, with surface ships, can do so peacefully, and tick the US off, but not as much. Perhaps if the Germans get surface ships out they can also blockade peacefully.
A lot depends on whether the munitions are transported on US ships or the ships of the power to which they are headed.
Depending on whether each ship being sunk angers the US or not and whether or not US ships can be defended, the UK might actually have incentive to allow ships (For some reason in 1917 they refused to re-institute convoys even though they were effective earlier) to be sunk by the Germans. Harsh, but not implausible.
Anyways, I very much like the direction its headed, and am interested in helping iron out some details either now or after release.
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Note the distinction I have always made. I have not cared what came last. I have cared what was most important. The first quote is a definitive statement that USW was the most important.
It was not In 1915 we lost 120+ men to the Lusitania and it had not effect. USW was not the cause that triggered the war and thats what i have been saying all along.
All your quote says is that both the telegram and USW were reasons. This I have admitted countless times. It does not say in your quote which was more important, but in mine it does. Now, if you had a quote from the same article saying that the note was more important, you might have something.
But this is your invented argument. I keep saying it was the trigger that caused the war. You on the other hand keep inventing other arguments that attempt to bury that fact.
It’s pretty clear you are far from confident in your argument because I keep saying I don’t really care that it’s the last straw, only that USW is the most important factor, and over and over you keep saying it was the last straw as some sort of diversion tactic.
No this is only what you are saying now, since all the other arguments were defeated quite easily. I always maintained it was the final straw that triggered the war.
You keep double-talking, acting sometimes like the note being the last straw and it being the most important factor are not the same thing, and other times acting like they are the same thing: “But my insistence was that the Note was the last straw. The most important factor was not USW.”
Nope. The most important factor was the trigger that caused the war because it caused the war. Simple fact. I look at the last trigger that caused the war and to say what was a greater influence is proven by the event that actually caused action, which was the note. IN addition perhaps you got some supporting evidence that USR was the main cause ( other than one source)?
Saying the same thing over when I am not contesting the point (that the note was the “last” straw) is starting to make you look a little crazy. � Is there someone on here arguing over and over again that its not the last straw?
Then you are arguing against the facts, like a crazy person.
Regarding the Zimmerman Note:
Quote
More than anything else, it hardened the peace-loving American people to the conviction that war with Germany was an absolutely necessary step.http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/zimmermann.htm
Finally, you have a source that definitively states that the note was the most important factor in something. This would usually mean that at this point we would have competing, contradictory sources, in which case the debate is open and both positions are tenable. The small issue with that is that, as I have admitted, this quote only says that the note � was the critical factor in public opinion (I have already said the note was a huge propaganda victory that made the decision to go to war that US leaders made for USW reasons more palatable to the American people). No one is denying that the note had huge PO implications. But that is not the same as being the cause for the war. Public opinion is of course important, but not necessarily definitive.
History is a study of interpretations. This propaganda victory was for bringing up the Note to the Americans, but letting them (German High Command) know at the same time that the German code had been broken.
That source does help your argument, however it deals more with public opinion that with the definitive reason(s) leading into war. Until you provide evidence showing that the Telegram was the most important cause for the US to go to war (not the most important cause for US public opinion to be for war, which are two separate things), the evidence supports USW as the most important cause for the US to go to war.
If USW was the main cause, it would have triggered the war. But that took the note to trigger the war, which i have said all along.
Quote
Some of those in the United States who still held out for neutrality at first claimed the telegram was a fake. This notion was dispelled two days later, when Zimmermann himself confirmed its authenticity.Public opinion in the United States now swung firmly toward American entrance into World War I. On April 2, Wilson went before Congress to deliver a message of war.http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/zimmermann-telegram-published-in-united-states
Once again, public opinion. One thing to note is that this quote states that it swung firmly toward American entrance. Could there have been anything that swung it significantly before that? Maybe we can learn something from the sentence right before before the lines you quoted: “Germany had already aroused Wilson’s ire—and that of the American public—with its policy of unrestricted submarine warfare and its continued attacks against American ships.”
No because if it did it would have triggered the war. Public opinion was solidified only after the note was made public. Get over it.
The thing about a last straw is that its often such a little thing in a long series of things that finally breaks the camel’s back. Just because the last straw is the one the breaks the back does not mean it compares in weight to the previous straws. Maybe there is � a source that definitively states the note was why the US went to war (instead of why the public became convinced they wanted war)
The funny thing is it takes something the be the last straw. USW was not it no matter how many posts you make, it was the note.
Quote
� � � � Until that point, the United States had tried to remain neutral in World War I. However, the British and other allies were begging and pleading for help. Attitudes in the US were shifting towards war, and the telegram acted as a catalyst. The British capitalized on that attitude, and in a politically smart move, they showed the United States the telegram on February 24, 1917.
� � � � The United States published the telegram, making the public aware of it on March 1. The public opinion quickly became a definite pro-war. Congress officially declared war against Germany and its allies on April 6, 1917.http://library.thinkquest.org/28005/flashed/timemachine/courseofhistory/zimmerman.shtml
So it seems that what the telegram did was speed things up. I have always admitted that. However, what made the attitudes shift towards war in the first place? You guessed it (or maybe you didn’t), USW. Germany knew that resuming USW would draw the US in. THAT’S WHY THEY MADE THE OFFER TO MEXICO. Imagine if you can a scenario in which Germany sent the note without engaging in USW (let’s forget for a second that the note was sent because of USW). Now imagine a situation where they engage in USW without sending the note. Which is more likely to draw the US in? I have a feeling what you will say out of stubbornness, but we both know that that is the uneducated answer.
No you don’t admit it was the trigger that caused US entry into the war. If the note was never revealed, the US would need to be triggered on something else. But in reality it was the note and not USW.
There still might be some historian who states the telegram was the most important cause for war (not for public opinion being for the war, if you weren’t such a double-talker you might admit the difference). But until you supply such evidence, our viewpoints cannot be on equal evidentiary basis, as my evidence is more definitive. Keep looking if you want, but the most you can do is tie. I realize you think winning the argument is more important than the truth of the matter (your dirty tactics make that clear), so I am sorry you can’t win. Hopefully if you find your evidence, your ego can settle for both viewpoints being tenable.
But the trigger that caused the war was the note, Not USW.
Quote
Balfour, knowing full well that the telegram might lead the Americans to enter the war on Britain and France�s side, had nevertheless hesitated to show it to Page. The Royal Navy admiral whose office, codenamed Room 40, had intercepted and decoded the telegram had also been wracked with doubt about what to do. Although Admiral Sir William Hall knew exactly how important the telegram was, he had to find a way to show it to the Americans without revealing that his office had broken the German codes. Once the Germans learned that their codes and ciphers were no longer secure, they would stop using them and a veritable gold mine of information would stop flowing into Hall�s office. Only once he was convinced that he had found a way to protect his precious secret did he give the telegram to Balfour.Is that some sort of attempt to dismiss this blunder of yours, quoted below? Just admit you seriously messed up your interpretation of the note and events. You are only making things � worse for yourself.
No silly it shows the British didn’t want to give up the note because it would tip the Germans into knowing that their code was broken. This is what i was saying before. They did obviously, because they needed the US to be in the war and USW was not enough to do it…
Again, why should Wilson be afraid to mention the note when it was published in NEWSPAPERS a month before? It was no longer sensitive. The British ALREADY waited. They had ALREADY protected their source of the information.
http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/zimmermann/
“In an effort to protect their intelligence from detection and to capitalize on growing anti-German sentiment in the United States, the British waited until February 24 to present the telegram to Woodrow Wilson.”Only proving my point. The USW was not enough to get the US in the war, so they released the Note knowing it would compromise the British codebreakers in room 40 and tip the Germans that the code was broken. So they sacrificed it because they needed a trigger to get US into the war and USW was not it.
Let’s look at the chronology.
January: British discover note.
Feb 24: British release note to Wilson
March 1: Note released to the American press
March 3: Zimmermann confirms note is authentic to an american journalist
March 29: Zimmermann gives speech confirming note is genuine
April 2: Wilson addresses congress to declare war, he mentions unrestricted submarine warfare as a motivation to go to war at least 8 times, does not mention the note once.It’s absolutely absurd to think that Wilson withheld mentioning the note to protect his sources after the british gave it to him a over month before and he released it to the PRESS( the PUBLIC PRESS!) a month before. If he were to have mentioned the note would he have needed to spill how the British got it (if he even knew)? OF COURSE NOT! It was no longer sensitive. Let’s not forget the fact that Zimmermann himself confirmed the note’s authenticity twice before the speech. It was publicly released. Confirmed by its author. Somehow Wilson mentioning the note in his war speech tips to the Germans that they have a leak, but the note being in most every American newspaper one month prior to the speech doesn’t? If you think that, you underestimate us Germans. We may not be the sharpest tools in the shed, but we are sharp enough to figure that out. We know what newspapers are, and where to get them, even those of us who are not spies.
This is more fluff arguments to sidetrack the central truth that the note and not USW triggered US entry into the war. When you finally are going to understand the fact?
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In summary, the evidence we have leads to the conclusion that unrestricted submarine warfare (USW to save my fingers) was the most significant/important cause of the US entry into World War I, while the Zimmermann telegram probably sped the US entry in that it had significant effects on strengthening public opinion for the war in addition to what USW was doing to American public opinion before and after the note’s release.
You got nothing. What triggered the war was the note. The public opinion turned decidedly only after the note was made public. It is what triggered the war. Get over it.
http://history.state.gov/milestones/1914-1920/WWI
Quote
Germany’s resumption of submarine attacks on passenger and merchant ships in 1917 was the primary motivation behind Wilson’s decision to lead the United States into World War I.There it is in black and white. Wilson led the US into war, and he did so because of USW.
OK if you look hard enough you may find anything. The note triggered the war, not USW. Get over it.
Quote
In mid-march 1917, German U-boats sank three American merchant ships. Outraged about the violation of American neutrality, President Wilson called a meeting with his cabinet. Each cabinet member argued for war. On April 2, Wilson asked Congress to declare war on Germany to "make the world safe for democracy.
-American Anthem, Holt-Rinehart-Winston, 2007It was sub attacks that caused Wilson to call the meeting in which the cabinet resolved for war.
No it was what WILSON said. The public opinion changed when the note was made public and that allowed Wilson the cache to DOW, because so many people were upset with that note, not the stupid USW.
Wilson’s speech to Congress, Apr. 2, 1917
http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/usawardeclaration.htmIf there is a mention of the note in Wilson’s speech as to why the US needed to go to war, I couldn’t find it. On the other hand, submarines are mentioned at least 8 times, and it doesn’t take a doctorate in English to see that unrestricted submarine warfare is the theme of the speech.
But this is how you gather the “truth” you just count up words and if one word is mentioned more than another word, the “truth” becomes clear. If that’s how you do things, i pity you.
Explaining the absence of mention of the note in the speech being because the note was a sensitive document and such mention would tip to the Germans that there was a leak is an exceedingly poor argument. The Germans had several opportunities to know that the note had gotten out, most obviously the publishing of the note in American newspapers after March 1. Not only that, Zimmermann himself confirmed the note’s authenticity at least twice publicly before Wilson’s speech. The only thing Wilson could possibly have wanted to protect was how exactly the British got the note (if he even knew how they got it), and it was hardly necessary to give away those secrets when the note was publicly confirmed to be true by Zimmermann himself.
So we need another reason, a legitimate reason, for why the note was not mentioned, otherwise it is evidence supporting (although not as slam-dunk as the first quote at top) � that USW was the most important cause for the US to go to war.
The reason why it was not mentioned earlier is because the British were hoping that just USW would be enough to trigger the war, but it didn’t so they played the last card and the note triggered the war. Yep check and mate.
Until you provide definitive evidence stating that the note was the most important cause as to why the US went to war, I don’t really have much more to say since I have already firmly established my viewpoint. There is plenty of room for other tenable viewpoints, if you have definitive evidence for them. If you keep posting on the topic without such evidence, I will try to ignore � such baiting and misdirection, but to be honest I may just bite if it gets too juicy. I really hope you will actually just provide real definitive evidence or gracefully bow out though, not that I have much hope since you ignored a quote that definitively supports my argument while quoting from the same article.
Nobody cares about how you count up the word ‘submarine’ in a speech. I care about how public opinion turned only after the note was made public and that it triggered the war, and not USW.
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Let’s say for the sake of example and clarity, a country needs to be 100% provoked to go to war. (Obviously these numbers are for the sake of example and I am not putting exact values on an event that is hard to measure.)
Let’s say one event provokes them 25%. Another event provokes them 75%. Which one is a more important factor?
Does it change if we flip the order the events happened in?
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