Any new rules? any big changes to how the game is played?

[manstein39]

I have a fairly simple idea for an implementation of rail movement:

Each country has a certain amount of strategic movement points (perhaps equal to, or a fraction of their IPC).  During the non-combat movement phase a player can move units into any territory owned at the start of their turn.  Strategic rail movement cannot result in a unit ending in a contested territory.

[Flashman]

This is basically what I’ve been advocating for years. I don’t even have limited movement points, railways could shift a lot of materiel. Of course the movement can only be between connected land tts, but you forgot to mention that, didn’t you?

@manstein39:

I have a fairly simple idea for an implementation of rail movement:

Each country has a certain amount of strategic movement points (perhaps equal to, or a fraction of their IPC).  During the non-combat movement phase a player can move units into any territory owned at the start of their turn.  Strategic rail movement cannot result in a unit ending in a contested territory.

[oztea]

Rail movement could much more easily be achieved by

“infinite non-combat movement amongst friendly territories not bordered by enemy controlled territory”

[Imperious Leader]

Right. In 6 month turns the entire army could be moved by rail, no limits.

When Russia falls Germany needs to run her army to finish off France and to say " hey they can only move 10 men" would entail too many allied victories.

[Clyde85]

I’m wondering how the victory conditions will work in this game. The Great War wasn’t like WW2 with capitals falling to enemies advances. Hell, Germany taking Pairs should be a major event in this game, not turn one necessity. As far as I can tell there were only like 3 enemy capitals that ever actually ever taking, Belgrade, Brussels, and I think Bucharest. Is this game going to have a mechanic to represent war weariness, or the blockade, or some other way of taking down the Central Powers that doesn’t involve storming into Berlin and Vienna?

P.E. (post-edit)
I did forget one, Podgorica was also occupied.

[Flashman]

@Imperious:

Right. In 6 month turns the entire army could be moved by rail, no limits.

When Russia falls Germany needs to run her army to finish off France and to say " hey they can only move 10 men" would entail too many allied victories.

Absolutely. If Larry’s game doesn’t have rail movement, the Central Powers will not be able to fight effectively on both fronts. Even if the Schleiffen plan works, they won’t be able to switch units to the east in time to save central Europe from the Russians.

Mind you, I’ve been saying the same thing about the A&A WWII games for years, to no effect.

The same principle applies if there is ever an A&A Civil War game: there is an absolute break in the nature of warfare after rail transport becomes available. In essence, set piece Napoleonic battles are no longer decisive, as each side can fill up the gaps in its front line faster than the enemy can exploit any victory. It becomes a war of attrition.

[Flashman]

This is what I meant by the need for a political dimension to the game.

There should be a morale/revolution/disorder chart as well as the national income tracker.

Various factors push a nation further along the track to revolution; the general trend should be more “minus” factors than “positive”, so that the lifespan of the war is finite - ultimately the war will collapse under its own weight.  It becomes a matter of who can survive the longest, not who can capture the enemy crown jewels.

Factors?

Lose your capital: -5

Lose any other starting tt: -3

Lose any other tt: -1

Lose control of one of your convoy zones: - <value of=“” the=“” cz=“”>(representing food shortages)

Lose a battle in which more than 5 of your units are destroyed: -3

Win a battle in which more than 5 of your units are destroyed: -1
(dog fights count towards these unit totals)

Capture an enemy (not minor nations) capital: +5

Capture any other enemy (not minor nations) tt: +1

Suffer a bombing raid on your capital: -3 (once only)

Suffer one of your dreadnoughts destroyed: -2

What else?

Consequences of reaching the targets? Next post.

@Clyde85:

I’m wondering how the victory conditions will work in this game. The Great War wasn’t like WW2 with capitals falling to enemies advances. Hell, Germany taking Pairs should be a major event in this game, not turn one necessity. As far as I can tell there were only like 3 enemy capitals that ever actually ever taking, Belgrade, Brussels, and I think Bucharest. Is this game going to have a mechanic to represent war weariness, or the blockade, or some other way of taking down the Central Powers that doesn’t involve storming into Berlin and Vienna?

P.E. (post-edit)
I did forget one, Podgorica was also occupied.</value>

[Flashman]

Throwing out some ideas for Empires falling into Revolution.

Roll a dice for each home area still held that has units. On a roll of X that area mutinies and joins the revolution. Replace all units there with Red units.

Red units are controlled by the Alliance opposed to the relevant Empire. They can only operate within the original tt of that Empire. They may attack “White” units at will, but can only recruit new infantry and cavalry units.

Surviving units of the Empire (“Whites”) are still controlled by the original player.  They can fight the Reds and any enemy units at will. They too cannot build new mechanical units.

Extra: “Blacks”

If an area has an ethnic majority (i.e of a nationality other than the main one of the Empire, e.g. Ireland, Poland, Transylvania) X requires a lower roll; however if the roll is for revolution, the units there are replaced by “Black” nationalist units. These are not controlled by anyone, but may be attacked.

Possible: Roll for every area: if there are no units in the tt and there is a revolt place one relevant (Red or Black) infantry there.

Only when all Reds have been eliminated is the revolution over and the Empire back to normal. Original Allies are free to intervene and help put down the Reds.

The game is won when all Empires of one side are either defeated (capital occupied) or in Revolution.

[manstein39]

@Flashman:

This is basically what I’ve been advocating for years. I don’t even have limited movement points, railways could shift a lot of materiel. Of course the movement can only be between connected land tts, but you forgot to mention that, didn’t you?

@manstein39:

I have a fairly simple idea for an implementation of rail movement:

Each country has a certain amount of strategic movement points (perhaps equal to, or a fraction of their IPC).  During the non-combat movement phase a player can move units into any territory owned at the start of their turn.  Strategic rail movement cannot result in a unit ending in a contested territory.

Good catch on the “connected land tts.”  BTW, I would highly suggest everyone who is looking for a really in-depth WWI game to check out “The Guns of August” by Avalon Hill.

[Flashman]

Further on the breakdown idea:

After each year, move the targets needed for Disorder & Revolution down - all nations become increasingly weary of war.

So two steps to a power collapsing: Disorder, then Revolution.  The latter as described above;

Disorder: the power continues to operate as normal, but combat units are liable to mutiny. Fleets may refuse to sail out of port; armies may refuse to leave the trenches to attack.
It should be possible for a power to recover from Disorder; most countries had mutinies at some point.

All powers begin on the chart at 0. It might go up to +10 for early successes, then steadily down for everyone. “Disorder” and “Revolution” markers begin at appropriate points (Revolution at the end) and are moved down at intervals, probably at the end of each year.

Perhaps another chart to track American involvement, influenced by U-Boat sinking, invasion of neutrals etc. Just possible for it to swing far enough for America to join the CPs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_entry_into_World_War_I

Think I mentioned this before, but a way of balancing towards the CP is to allow only them to attack neutrals, and only them to annex and exploit conquered tt (the Allies have to liberate it).

On the global aspect of the war:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bp9CNtY7ho

Japan as a power, but what about China?

Did Japan have a modern industry in 1914?

IL, do you have a global map or just sections outside Europe; you said no Central Africa.

Some other issues:

Ammunition - armies need ammo to fight. Thinking of using “bullets” from old version of Diplomacy. Produced in factories, need to be transported by rail or ship to keep units in supply. Can be stockpiled and captured.

Motor Torpedo Boats - cheap naval units which can attack bigger ships. Problem is, I don’t want people building loads of these to soak up hits. Perhaps they can only attack when accompanied by big ships, or you can choose which units to attack in naval combat?

Edit: MTBs can only operate off the coast of friendly tts.

Techs - to what extent can these be shared with your allies? I would say that, after a power gains a tech:

the next turn it can build the new units
two turns later its Allies can build it
two turns after that its enemies can produce their own version

OR

you have to physically deliver a unit to an ally for it to gain the tech.

I’m assuming that units delivered to an ally’s home tt can be converted to its units - otherwise Turkey would have no modern weapons (it should have no factories).

Updated XL file attached.

[Flashman]

Ship mechanics:

One of the most enduring Myths created by A&A is that

“Ships were continually at sea, making them sitting ducks for enemy aircraft”

So three new proposals:

1. Ships can be moored in port, and are thus protected against attack by sea and air (the enemy has to attack the entire tt).

2. Ships must stay within range of friendly (&/or neutral?) tt at all times (fueling).

3. Range of ships is increased (along the lines of rail movement). However, locations of ships (or just subs?) are recorded secretly. A player must announce when and where a fleet is refueling, if it is entering and capturing a convoy zone, or when it picks up or unloads units. But thereafter the position is written down in secret, and can be revealed at any time the player chooses.

Is this worth doing? Writing down moves of numbered ships might sound like a chore, but wouldn’t it breathe new life into naval combat?

[Imperious Leader]

This… All naval ships more 4 spaces and…

Going into port:
    Port symbols on the map represent the major fortified naval bases of the war.  Ships are allowed to go into ports; to go in and out of a port costs 1 movement point.  Ships must exit the way they came in (exception: see Kiel Canal and dual-entry ports).  On the side of the board are numbered port boxes to identify who is in what port.  Place a numbered token on the port box on the map and place the pieces inside the blown-up box on the map.
    Those in a port are safe from naval attack. Enemy Bombers/Zeppelins may attack, but the ships will fire back at the attacking aircraft. In this case, any of the defender�s air units in the same or adjacent land area may sortie in defense of the ships.  There is no fight for air supremacy in this case.
    During naval bombardments, ports can absorb up to two hits, and like fortresses, they will repair during step 5 if the port area, or the territory it resides in, was not attacked by five or more units the enemy turn prior.  Ports that are damaged may still repair ships, but they may not be used for strategic movement (see strategic movement for details).
    The enemy may blockade the ships by moving into the sea zone adjacent to the port.  All enemy ports bordering the sea zone are considered blockaded. The blockaded ships will then need to attack the blockading fleet to be able to move out of the sea zone. Ships may intercept enemy fleets that move adjacent to the port they are in (see naval interceptions).
    Ships in ports do not support in land combat and may not bombard.  If the territory falls then the ships will be forced out to sea.  If any ships are present, then a battle results immediately.  In these situations the fleet forced out is considered the attacker.  Ships can be built directly into a port (or the sea zone adjacent to the port) that is located in a factory area.

Naval interception:
    During the enemy�s turn, your naval units may attempt to intercept a fleet that moves adjacent to them (they would be in port or in the same sea zone together) during the combat or non- combat movement phases. Ships in ports, and those that are coexisting with other enemy ships in the same sea zone, may intercept. The player designates the ships intercepting and rolls a die; on a D6 roll of a 6 the attempt is successful. When your own ships occupy the same sea space entered, the attempt succeeds on a 5-6.   A roll of a 1 is always a fail. A successful naval interception stops the movement of enemy ships immediately.
    Only one interception attempt may be made from a sea or port, but an attempt may be made each time any enemy ships move next to them (like from other areas into the same sea zone). In a situation where a defending fleet has ships that succeed at intercepting into the zone the naval battle will take place in, and in those situations the intercepting ships are considered attacking ships and follow the guidelines for attacking ships and transport losses. The other defending ships still count as defending.

Dual-entry ports:
A few ports on the board allow entry/exit from two areas.  These ports are Hull, Harwich, Portsmouth, Brest, and Antwerp-Zeebrugge. Blockading one side does not prevent movement from the other.

Ports and naval invasions:
Any land area with a port may not be invaded from sea along its contiguous border as long as that port has a Dreadnought or Cruiser. Note that in Northern England, Liverpool does not prevent invasion from the East and Hull does not prevent invasion from the West.
    If these ships recently retreated into the port, then it does not prevent invasion.  This would be true of ships that intercepted and were defeated and forced back into the port they came from. As an exception to this rule, Hanover and Schleswig-Holstein may not be invaded if either Wilhelmshaven or Kiel has a Dreadnought or Cruiser in it (this represents the rapid response given by the canal).  Both ports must be cleared for invasion to be done at either area.

Zeebrugge rule:
    If the Germans successfully capture Belgium, then the port of Antwerp becomes Zeebrugge.  While the port is in German possession they automatically receive one free submarine per turn, and this is placed in the port.  Also, as an exception to the main rules regarding building, the Germans may build submarines in this port. Due to the nature of this port�s submarine facilities, submarines here are immune to bombardment.

Kiel Canal:
    The Kiel Canal links the German naval bases of Wilhemshaven and Kiel and sea zones of Heligoland Bight and Kattegat.  Ships using this route may move directly from one port/sea zone to another or from one port to the opposite sea, for 1 MP.  Ships that do so are not subject to the blockade rules and may freely exit and enter the ports regardless of the presence of Enemy ships in the North Sea and Kattegat. If Schleswig-Holstein falls to the Allies then the Kiel Canal may not be used.

and…

Strategic movement:
Ships may make a strategic non-combat move from any originally controlled port to port, subject to the following:

1. The move must begin and end in a friendly port.
2. The move may not move into or pass through any enemy ships.  However, submerged subs are ignored.
3. The quantity of ships transferred is limited by the printed economic value of the attached land area where the port is connected too.
4. Ships are subject to mine and coastal fortress pass-through attacks.
   5)    Strategic naval movement cannot be made if either port has been damaged.

These moves are valid if:

1. You can trace the movement through a continuous line of controlled territories.
2. The movement does not cross any sea barriers that are not controlled (such as the English Channel, or a blocked Dardanelles strait).
3. The movement is not into a contested area.
4. The line is not traced through Russia (unless you are Russia).
5. The territory is not newly captured (exception: Belgium).

[Flashman]

I would also suggest:

Capture/Scuttle.

When a land tt containing ships in port is attacked, the ships cannot simply escape to sea, certainly not if the port is under blockade. Rather, if the attacker wins the battle he captures the ships with the port. Replace the ships with units of the capturing player. A small fee should be paid to convert (re-crew) the vessels. At the end of any indecisive round of combat the defender may attempt to scuttle the ships (roll a die for each).

Refueling in neutral ports

Ships may use neutral ports for refueling purposes, but they may stay there for only one turn. If they come under blockade while still in a neutral port, they must either sail out to attack or scuttle on their next turn. ref: Grad Spee WWII.

Landing parties

All naval units other than transports and MTBs are considered to have small landing parties on board. If such a ship docks at an undefended enemy or neutral tt (whether or not it has a port) it may change control of the tt and place a control marker.
This control is not sufficient to defend against subsequent attack from combat units

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_and_Pacific_theatre_of_World_War_I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Emden_(1906)#The_battle_with_the_Sydney

[Flashman]

Regarding opening setup:

Should the opening setup reflect the situation on August 4th 1914? In this case, Germany will have the equivalent of 7 armies massed in the West, with just 1 to hold tt in the East.
This effectively commits Germany to the Schleiffen plan; just about practical if rail movement is used, suicidal if it is not.

However, I would suggest a non-combat “Mobilization” round before any combat rounds, following these steps:

1. All starting units are placed in their Army Corps district headquarters/depots (land) and Home Station (ships). That is, each county’s units begin on their Peacetime settings.

2. Each player will simultaneously write down his mobilization orders in secret (don’t worry its one turn only). They are then revealed and units given their Mobe orders.

3. Referring to MOs, land and air units are moved as ordered, restricted of course to moving anywhere in home tt. Ships can be moved to any friendly port, or ordered to sea. This may result in rival fleets passing through the same sea zones, or ending up in the same zone. This is not a problem, as there is no combat in this round.

4. Nations may call up their national reserves, placing such units in their appropriate depots. Any new units purchased are also placed at this time.

Players may, Diplomacy style, confer in secret with Allies before writing orders.

Depending on politics at set up:

The Mobilization round may involve just Germany, Austria, France & Russia; perhaps Serbia as Russian ally.

Britain can only mobilize after G or A attacks a neutral. Turkey mobilizes at the start of Round two; Italy mobilizes in May 1915; USA under conditions agreed as per rules.

Newly mobilizing nations do not collect income before their Mob turn. Effectively they don’t take a turn before this.

Any country coming under attack before it is mobed automatically activates. Its units can defend themselves, and attack next turn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobilization#Mobilization_in_World_War_I

Edit:

An alternative system is for each power to Mobe in turn order, so that Player Two can Mobe in response to Player One’s Mobe moves and so forth.

[Pellulo]

@flashman

I am sure when the Second Edition comes out, many of these concerns will be dealt with, especially with a more streamlined and clearer rule book.

If not by Avalon Hill, then maybe Eagle Games. They did a good job, with Conquest of the Empire( I basically stuck with the old set of rules), and, Shogun(kept most of the old rules).

Along with any new minis/collectable minis.

As for a new follow up game, for example like Jutland, or, Lawerence’s adventures in the Mid-East , is pure speculation.

My best bet would be a tie in game like Axis & Allies 1915 and The War of the Worlds(H.G. Wells Novel could be given as a treat inside the game box).

Alas any reissued game would probably have those DAMX Zombie theme to it, thanks, Pellulo

PS I would never ever RoundRobin the latter.