Hit-and-run Yugoslavia from G.S.Germany? Is the "retreat" legal or exploitative?

[Guest]

Another option is to strafe Yugo G2 as in this scenario:

G1 build 7 mech, save $2.  Take France, Normandy, Bulgaria, Finland. Sink  z110 with 2 subs and planes.  Sub, cruiser, battleship to z112; transport to z113. Land fighters and tacs in West Germany. All ground units in range go to Hungary.  Hungary fighter to Rome. When taking France lose artillery before mechs. Collect $68 and finish with $70 in hand.  Italy will take South France.

UK decides whether to sink z112 and/or Taranto. If UK sends all naval and air to z112 then no scramble and start making plans for Italy to conquer the world (luftwaffe may sink those UK ships without air cover G2).  Scramble z113 if bomber goes for the transport.  If UK tries to hit both Taranto AND z112 then scramble and consider building transports G2.  If UK attacks just Taranto or neither, sink royal navy G2 or at least the blockers. Consider building carrier out of Normandy.  Sealion possible if royal navy sunk and UK does not build all infantry.

G2 Build 10 transports or 10 tanks and a fighter (or possibly carrier, 7 tanks, 3 mech). Unless sealion looks very good, take East Poland with everything in range.
Strafe Yugo with 1 infantry from Hungary and tanks/mechs from France and retreat to Hungary.
Italy finishes Yugo.

G3 Massive tank/mech force to Baltic states. Finland infantry take Karelia/Vyborg with air support from West Germany if needed (unlikely). Infantry/artillery/air take Belarus and West Ukraine with minimal force.  Reinforce Baltic states, Belarus, West Ukraine with infantry/AA as needed depending on Soviet counterattack potential. Sink UK navy to delay D-Day invasion if you did the carrier in z110 bit. Build infantry/artillery.

G4 Novgorod.  German income now much higher than USSR.  Build infantry/artillery.

Next few turns stack East Poland and Novgorod, trading Belarus & West Ukraine if you can get Russia to waste units liberating them (use AA guns wisely).  Keep infantry/AA in Archangel and/or sub in z125. Soviet income declines as Japan marches across the East.  Eventually they will get too weak to stop you going all in to Belarus, especially if they have been building nothing but infantry.  Smolensk route forces evacuation of Bryansk and full turtle to Moscow. Consider SBR at this point.  Meanwhile strong Italy builds to counter landing force in France.  Stake in the heart is when Japanese fleet sails south to scare India but skips it to help Italy take Egypt instead. :-)

[creeping-deth87]

@ghr2:

@creeping-deth87:

Wow, it seems like I’m alone in using this strategy based on the responses. I normally do all fleet on G1 and then pretty much go all tanks/mech after that. In my group Russia usually just cant take it and by the time the Allies show up it’s too late.

When do people normally attack Russia? I find waiting past turn 2 to be dangerous.

I find attacking any other time besides turn 3 dangerous.  Your stack turn 2 would be too vulnerable, and economically, turn 1 helps russia more than it hurts.  Turn 4 gives the allies too much time on japan or italy before you start threatening russia.  I like turn 3 cause I can have a powerful stack of inf/rtl/mech/tank plow through russia to moscow.  my turn 2 buy can be partially split to make a dd and a sub in order to stop the 125 NO and to kill any pesky subs.

I guess I just have a different meta in my group. Russia doesn’t have enough to counter-attack with on turn 2 usually. I normally grab Karelia, Vyborg, Baltic, Bessarabia, and East Poland and then it just goes from bad to worse for Russia from there.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

I like moves like this but it seems I often get “lucky” dice and end up “winning” so I can’t retreat.

[Noll]

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

I like moves like this but it seems I often get “lucky” dice and end up “winning” so I can’t retreat.

I agree and that’s why I don’t like low luck, it makes your strafes 100% attainable.

[Witt]

I know it puts Germany in a better position to exploit a G2 Barbarossa, but I do not like giving Italy revenue which could go to the stronger partner that is Germany.
I worry myself sick over Italy and having to cover Rome, which is nastily placed in the distant South, not richer North. It means if Rome falls, the Allies collect more revenue. A German Yugoslavia is safer ( on my weak Axis nerves and heart).

[Gekkepop]

@Noll:

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

I like moves like this but it seems I often get “lucky” dice and end up “winning” so I can’t retreat.

I agree and that’s why I don’t like low luck, it makes your strafes 100% attainable.

Wow that is exactly why I do like low luck, it means the game is not decided by a few bad die rolls.

About the Yugo strafe: it’s a good opening no matter how you follow up since you always want to put pressure on Russia. I also like Italian money more than German money since they can get very strong if played right but need the money to do so. I usually do it together with a Sealion feint to make the UK stay home and strengthen Italy.

[Kreuzfeld]

I prefer not doing it in a barbarossa game for several reasons;
1)  I want italy to take bulgaria on I1, that gives me 4 italian infs as canopeners on the east front, that way I can usually canopen 10 units, and it is much more difficult to be ussr.
2) I prefer having german access to the adriatic sea, to keep the zone free of us ships, one can build factory and AirBase there on later turns.
3) I prefer turn 3 barb, with inf buy on turn1.

[Zhukov44]

Strafing is perfectly legal and part of A&A, but I hesitate to play a strategy in a dice game that depends on me not getting 5 hits in Yugo.  Because to guarantee that I don’t get 5 hits, I’ve got to go in light, and going in light could always mean taking extra casualties.

[Cow]

I do it all the time. I do not “go in light” I go in hard and if I don’t score enough hits to kill it, I retreat to romania.

I send all the infs and artys, the 1 inf from romania and an armor and plane at least.

[Fortress]

I’m confused: if you’re only staying for one round and then retreating, the number of troops you bring has no bearing on the number of casualties you will take (merely upon on the number of casualties you will inflict…). So it really doesn’t matter if you go in a little light (as long as you have enough infantry to not lose other pieces).

[Zhukov44]

Sorry my post was confusing.  I don’t think the Yugo strafe is a good idea unless it is part of a plan to take Moscow on G5.  In that case, I would probably take in enough force to average 3 hits (18 punch), so as to avoid getting 5 hits if possible.

If G bought art/inf, there would be little benefit to strafing, since the art/inf on Germany plus the Bulgarian inf can’t reach Moscow till G6.

This strategy has potential in low luck (where you can get exactly 4 hits) but is probably too dicey for dice.  It’s just an idea and I don’t have concrete experience with it.

In practice, I almost never strafe Yugo in a dice game, since I don’t aim for G5 Moscow.  It’s better for Germany to have that money.  There are also good reasons for Germany to get Southern France and Greece, though G can’t expect to get them every game.

[Paksos]

Definitely legal and, in my opinion, definitely against the spirit of the game. I wouldn’t spit my dummy if my opponent did it but I certainly wouldn’t do it myself.

[WILD BILL]

@Paksos:

Definitely legal and, in my opinion, definitely against the spirit of the game. I wouldn’t spit my dummy if my opponent did it but I certainly wouldn’t do it myself.

THIS IS WAR.

If you find an advantage, and don’t use it, that is against the spirit of the game IMO (especially for the axis).

I look for this tactic later in the game. If you can pull it off with UK near Caucasus it is awesome. Get a UK mech or tank to Moscow (or somewhere in central Russia), then have Russia open up a hole from the north for you to blitz into a German short stack, along with slow moving units funneling up through the Middle East from Egypt/India (hoping not to kill them off). You can jump those slow moving units ahead to either screw the Germans making then fight through a better then expected defensive position or even set-up a liberation force hoping that the German attack on Moscow takes its toll leaving them weak. You might be able to strafe the Japanese w/UK if they are have taken Stalingrad in a similar tactic.

Pulling off a hop scotch at sea is is even better yet. You can cripple an enemy fleet, then merge fleets together on the other side possibly even bringing in reinforcements from your allies to def (because of turn order). If you can catch Japan w/o a naval base for repairs THEY ARE IN TROUBLE. It is hard to pull off, but if the US has subs in several SZs and Japan doesn’t kill them off (lack of destroyers), you may be able to hop scotch your fleet somewhere that the Japanese weren’t expecting.

[Cow]

southern france is easier than normandy g1. you can get one of those fighters in east europe somewhere (you know the one that is out of range from naval and you usually send to yugoslavia than italy). 3 mech fighter good to go.

I prefer to just do france. Though I like the southern france move when I am doing some kind of sea lion play. Prevents uk from merging fleet off gibraltar.

In this instance I prefer to take yugoslavia.

However if I am undecided… yeah I like the strafe. Shove east poland g2 no prob, start advancing sooner. It is really good if you plan on going all in on russia G5. It super all in, all the allies have to do is figure out a way to save russia. That is the whole game right there.