OMG! :) Thx all for the replies. I didnt know there were that many differences. Gonna send the new 2nd edition gameboard for enlargement too then! ASAP!
:runner: :upside_down_face:
Jonas
Global 2nd edition Q+A ( AAG40.2)
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@Young:
Can all allied air units land on Dutch islands without needing to first land on them, or is it just ANZAC and UK?
Yes, any ally could land on Dutch territories (including in South America) because the Dutch are one of the Allies (at war with Germany)
Note, however, that the USA cannot land on Dutch territories (or move ground units into them) before the USA is in the war, because the USA is still neutral until at war, and is not an ally of the Dutch yet.
I don’t agree with that statement. The last line of the paragraph discussing the Dutch on page 9 of the Pac
40 rules says :Once a Dutch territory has been captured by Japan, however, it may be captured and controlled by any power.This means that distinctions between Allies/non-Allies, or war/not-war are not relevant since the opening rule only grants permission for the UK & ANZAC to move into these territories. Referring to the Pacific40 rules, page 9:**_These two powers (UK/ANZAC) also have an arrangement with the Dutch government in exile (Holland having been captured by Germany) and have taken guardianship of the Dutch territories in the Pacific.American & Russian units can only occupy Dutch territories in the Pacific one those territories become Allied-controlled after being occupied by an Axis power. Nothing in that paragraph refers to being at war or a member of the Allies. Even after being at war, the USA and Russia cannot move into Dutch territories (on the Pacific board for sure, I’m still looking for discussions on the Dutch for the Europe board).This is another bit of weirdness like the French being able to DoW Japan without it affecting the other Allies or (in my opinion) Italy being allowed to DoW Russia without it affecting Germany.
And once again, if Kreighund wants to come in and say that the USA/Russia could in fact make such moves, he’s welcome, but the rules don’t support that interpretation and would then be in error._**
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Understood, but here’s the deal with the rule books; there is a rule book for the Pacific game, and a rulebook for the Europe game, but very few pages covering the Global game. The fact that the Pacific game has no French units in it, prevents the Pacific rulebook from talking about a French fighter landing on a Dutch Island (which is on the Pacific board).
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In other words:
Russia can land on DEI if:- Russia and Japan are at war
and - Japan and UK/ANZ are at war
or
2a) Russia and Germany are at war
No. The only requisite condition is that USSR and Japan are at war.
Russia must be at war with Japan to move out of Russian territories on the Pacific half of the board
Correct.
Russia must have a common enemy with the Dutch. This could be Germany or Japan. I think Japan is at war with the Dutch if Japan is at war with the UK.
There is no concept of “common enemies” in the rules. A power is either at war or it isn’t (USSR being the exception, in that its “at war” state is relative to the two maps). If it is, it can move units to any territory controlled by a friendly power that is also at war (unless there is a rule specifically stating otherwise). The Dutch territories are an exception, in that they aren’t initially controlled by any power (Holland is not a power). When they are not yet controlled by any power, they are friendly to the Allies.
@Eggman:
I don’t agree with that statement. Â The last line of the paragraph discussing the Dutch on page 9 of the Pac
40 rules says :Once a Dutch territory has been captured by Japan, however, it may be captured and controlled by any power. This means that distinctions between Allies/non-Allies, or war/not-war are not relevant since the opening rule only grants permission for the UK & ANZAC to move into these territories. Referring to the Pacific40 rules, page 9:**_These two powers (UK/ANZAC) also have an arrangement with the Dutch government in exile (Holland having been captured by Germany) and have taken guardianship of the Dutch territories in the Pacific. American & Russian units can only occupy Dutch territories in the Pacific one those territories become Allied-controlled after being occupied by an Axis power. Nothing in that paragraph refers to being at war or a member of the Allies.  Even after being at war, the USA and Russia cannot move into Dutch territories (on the Pacific board for sure, I’m still looking for discussions on the Dutch for the Europe board).I see your point. This will have to be addressed in the FAQ, as the intent is that the Dutch territories are friendly to all Allied powers. The only special privilege that UK-ANZAC is intended to enjoy is to take control of them while they are still Dutch._**
- Russia and Japan are at war
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I see your point. This will have to be addressed in the FAQ, as the intent is that the Dutch territories are friendly to all Allied powers. The only special privilege that UK-ANZAC is intended to enjoy is to take control of them while they are still Dutch.
That will mean at a minimum that USA/Russia/France could never move a land unit onto those territories while Dutch, but could possibly land a Fighter.
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@Young:
The fact that the Pacific game has no French units in it, prevents the Pacific rulebook from talking about a French fighter landing on a Dutch Island (which is on the Pacific board).
I’m not sure why that would be the case. The 2e book for Pacific has a section on the Global rules which also discusses France, so this could have been addressed if needed.
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Dutch territories are treated exactly the same as any other territory that is
a) friendly
b) lost their capitol.The only difference between Dutch territories and say, French territories after Paris has been lost, is that the UK/Anzac have a special relationship that allows them to take control of them before they’ve been captured by moving a ground unit into it. Typically you need to capture - this is the one of the two instances where control of a friendly territory passes to a friendly power. The other instance is a neutral that has been attacked but not captured.
So when you’re confused about things, ask yourself how you’d treat normandy if it were still french.
Can you UK/Anzac/US/Russia land a plane there? Yes, as long as it started the turn friendly and they’re not neutral. Exactly the same as any other friendly territory.
The US is not barred from being in a dutch territory - they must be at war first, but then they’re allowed to move into it just like any other friendly territory.
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@Eggman:
That will mean at a minimum that USA/Russia/France could never move a land unit onto those territories while Dutch, but could possibly land a Fighter.
Yes, they could, when at war (with Japan in USSR’s case), just as they could move a land unit into any other friendly territory. Â They just can’t take control of the territory by doing so, as UK-ANZAC can.
(I see kcdzim beat me to it.)
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@Eggman:
I see your point.� This will have to be addressed in the FAQ, as the intent is that the Dutch territories are friendly to all Allied powers.� The only special privilege that UK-ANZAC is intended to enjoy is to take control of them while they are still Dutch.
That will mean at a minimum that USA/Russia/France could never move a land unit onto those territories while Dutch, but could possibly land a Fighter.
Again, Dutch territories are friendly to the Allies, just like any other Allied territory. USA/Russia/France are always free to move a land unit there while still dutch. They simply cannot take control of it without liberating it (as they don’t have the diplomatic ties that UK/ANZAC do). And US must be at war (with any number of Axis powers, doesn’t matter which), while Russia must be at war with Japan.
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@Eggman:
That will mean at a minimum that USA/Russia/France could never move a land unit onto those territories while Dutch, but could possibly land a Fighter.
Yes, they could, when at war (with Japan in USSR’s case), just as they could move a land unit into any other friendly territory. � They just can’t take control of the territory by doing so, as UK-ANZAC can.
(I see kcdzim beat me to it.)
Yes, that is an important qualification. Thanks!
Since the global rules only refer to
Dutch territories, I presume that Suriname on the Europe board falls into the same category. -
There is no concept of “common enemies” in the rules.�
I got that from you.
I guess you’re saying that the only “common enemy” you need, is the Axis powers are the common enemy.
If USSR is at war with Japan and USA is only at war with Italy, then the USA and USSR are allies, you’re saying, because they’re both “at war”. That would be short for “at war with the Axis powers”.OK, so I was in error when thinking that the USSR and Dutch would both have to be at war with Japan for the USSR to be able to land in DEI, but I did qualify that Japan/Dutch relationship thing by saying I wasn’t sure.
Yeah….
But I’m not sure about Russia on the Pacific map… Who would have to be at war with who… although it’s highly unlikely for that to ever be an actual issue, right?
And it IS HIGHLY unlikely that Russia could EVER land anything on a Dutch territory without being at war with Japan (and without UK being at war with Japan, which you pointed out is not a requirement), so that question is primarily academic.
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@Eggman:
Since the global rules only refer to
Dutch territories, I presume that Suriname on the Europe board falls into the same category.Yes
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Yes, any ally could land on Dutch territories (including in South America) because the Dutch are one of the Allies (at war with Germany)
kcd, I had already made this abundantly clear in my first answer post to the question about the Dutch.
Good add on, to point out that land units of Allies can move into Dutch territories as friendly territories.
And your thorough explanation of Dutch territories was excellent -
Say Russia is at war with Japan, but not Italy and Germany. If somehow Germany or Italy got a plane into a Japanese territory and Russia wants to attack that territory what would they do with the German/Italian aircraft?
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@Eggman:
That will mean at a minimum that USA/Russia/France could never move a land unit onto those territories while Dutch, but could possibly land a Fighter.
Yes, they could, when at war (with Japan in USSR’s case), just as they could move a land unit into any other friendly territory. � They just can’t take control of the territory by doing so, as UK-ANZAC can.
(I see kcdzim beat me to it.)
Looking over the rules again, this seems like it should still be disallowed because Dutch-controlled territories are not considered friendly territories under the definition given in the rules as
controlled by you or a friendly power (the Dutch are not defined as a power). -
@Eggman:
Looking over the rules again, this seems like it should still be disallowed because Dutch-controlled territories are not considered friendly territories under the definition given in the rules as
controlled by you or a friendly power (the Dutch are not defined as a power).The point of me bringing this up is that if the developers want this move allowed, it is more than just a 1-line fix to the ruleset.
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Say Russia is at war with Japan, but not Italy and Germany. If somehow Germany or Italy got a plane into a Japanese territory and Russia wants to attack that territory what would they do with the German/Italian aircraft?
Russia CAN’T attack that territory unless she declares war on Germany/Italy.
If it’s not round 4 yet and Russia is not already at war with Germany/Italy, then Russia can’t make this declaration of war, which means it is impossible for Russia to attack this territory.It is only at sea that you can ignore the units of powers with which you are not yet at war.
On land, you are not allowed to attack unless you are at war with all of the powers owning units in that territory.Rulebook says:
“A power can’t attack a territory controlled by or containing units belonging to a power with which it is not at war.” -
And doing some more thinking, since the only references to the Dutch in the Europe `40 rule come under the discussion on the Global variant, that would imply that Suriname is completely impassable to all the Allies until taken by the Axis if you are playing Europe as a stand-alone.
If you are playing Global or Pacific, France, Russia, and the US would be prohibited from ever moving into Dutch-controlled territories under the thesis that the Dutch are not listed in the definition of countries that are powers, which means they are not considered friendly territory.
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Before Russia is in the war, can it move the cruiser and sub from sz 115?
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Welcome to Axis and Allies.org, Trooper!
Yes, Russia is free to move the cruiser and sub to Zones 114 or 113, and can even move to Z112 if they obtain permission from the Germans! Or if the Allies have taken control of Denmark.
Note also that German ships do not block the Russian ship movement at all, because they are not at war with each other.
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I thought so, but I wasn’t sure. Thanks Gamerman01.
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