Should you liberate France?

[PeterPaaPan]

When does the fac tip over when u lib france ? I mean, can US lib france and still build those 3 last unit, in the same turn ? Or does the fac become french right away ?

PPP

[Gargantua]

French right away…

[Jennifer]

I have liberated France exactly once, myself, and never seen it happen by an opponent of mine.

The reason I did it was not for tactical or strategic purposes, it was to demoralize my opponent.  America moved in with a large army, England reinforced with a large airforce and Italy/W. Germany couldn’t do anything about it.  He conceeded on Italy’s turn (he suicided against it, then figured W. Germany didnt have odds to win.)  He was one turn from a VC win in the Pacific, if I remember right (and it’s questionable, it was under Alpha 2 rules, so it was a while ago.)

[Spendo02]

Realistically the US wants both ICs in Normandy and S.France to remain under US control.  Unless a NO makes it more viable to get Paris liberated, 6 Armor a round from the US becomes more valuable for the Allies than 4 French Inf and only 2 Armor a round from them after the fact.

[Jennifer]

Yes, a penalty system for the United States / England for being in France until France is liberated maybe?

[Spendo02]

Or the IC’s can only build French Units (paid for by the owner of the territory).

[Jennifer]

A thought that occurred was that maybe you could not use the IC’s on French territory?

So, Japan builds on on FIC and India liberates, they can’t use it.  It’s still there, but it cannot be used.
Likewise
Normandy/S. France couldn’t be used by England/USA.

It wouldn’t really punish the allies for retaking land, but it also would encourage them to liberate Paris to use the complexes again.

[Spendo02]

Another thought is that the IC’s in Normandy and S.France always have 6 damage counters on them if under Allied control and Paris has not been liberated.

It doesn’t completely solve the problem, but it would cost you the price of 4 Armor to place 3 - every turn which is nothing to bat an eye at.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Spendo02:

Or the IC’s can only build French Units (paid for by the owner of the territory).

This is really cool.

[Kreuzfeld]

I could liberate france in a game where U got a US IC in both finland and norway, while spending alot against japan, while being able to hold paris.

if not all of these condtions are met, then I would rather have the US produce in normandy and SFrance.

[Cow]

I don’t know how you guys can get enough dudes to liberate france… without losing in the pacific.

[Kreuzfeld]

I didn’t mean I had ever pulled it off, I just told what kind of situation I felt it would be more likely, and my group prefer to play 14 VC, so it is not that bad to “loose” in the pacific.

[Make_It_Round]

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

@Spendo02:

Or the IC’s can only build French Units (paid for by the owner of the territory).

This is really cool.

Agreed, on the condition that the new French units were held in the Mobilization Zone until the actual ‘Mobilize New Units’ phase of the French turn.

Otherwise, you’d have French tanks and naval units with ‘haste’ being pumped out of those factories (i.e., they can attack on the same turn in which they are built)… which would feel very strange in comparison with the pace of the rest of the game, and give the French units what is, in essence, an A&A superpower.

[Spendo02]

@Make_It_Round:

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

@Spendo02:

Or the IC’s can only build French Units (paid for by the owner of the territory).

This is really cool.

Agreed, on the condition that the new French units were held in the Mobilization Zone until the actual ‘Mobilize New Units’ phase of the French turn.

Otherwise, you’d have French tanks and naval units with ‘haste’ being pumped out of those factories (i.e., they can attack on the same turn in which they are built)… which would feel very strange in comparison with the pace of the rest of the game, and give the French units what is, in essence, an A&A superpower.

Never looked at it like that - you have a good point and I do like your idea that the units are stuck in the mobilization zone until the end of France’s turn.  However on the flip side, it makes Germany/Italy really defend those territories instead of stacking in Paris/N.Italy to counter-attack.

[Jennifer]

@Cow:

I don’t know how you guys can get enough dudes to liberate france… without losing in the pacific.

Generally happens when Germany is obstinate and won’t conceed defeat.

---

I could see French only units - but in that case, shouldnt the Allies do nothing but liberate French territories?  Would really help out Italy, as far as I could see.

[Spendo02]

Although my suggestion has its flaws, it still stands that liberating Paris seems ill-advised for the Allies in 99% of all situations - the sole situation being the need to take a VC away from an impending German victory in Europe.

[Yavid]

I saw don’t liberate unless you are sure you can hold it without those 4 frenchmen. Those guys should be icing on the cake. The worst thing in the world for the allies is handing over more money to Germany. The worst thing for the Axis is France purchasing units.

[Jennifer]

Spendo02/Yavid,

Understood, but how can we fix that problem?  Churchill and Roosevelt would never avoid liberating Paris just because they’d magically lose control of cities they already liberated - right?

So I was thinking, what if Allied nations could only liberate French territories, they can never take possession?  Makes sniping Madagascar kinda worth it - sometimes (like if you can retreat the transport later!), means taking the NO for N. Africa is no longer tantamount to giving America more money, etc.  Also helps Germany since the allies are not producing in Normandy/Vichy France.

[special forces]

@Cmdr:

Spendo02/Yavid,

Understood, but how can we fix that problem?  Churchill and Roosevelt would never avoid liberating Paris just because they’d magically lose control of cities they already liberated - right?

So I was thinking, what if Allied nations could only liberate French territories, they can never take possession?  Makes sniping Madagascar kinda worth it - sometimes (like if you can retreat the transport later!), means taking the NO for N. Africa is no longer tantamount to giving America more money, etc.  Also helps Germany since the allies are not producing in Normandy/Vichy France.

But this wouldn’t fix the problem of giving Germany the full French income again next turn.

An alternative fix would be that the Allies can decide how much income they give back to the liberated nation (be it france, UK or whoever, with the minimum of the IPC of the liberated capital), the total amount of money on a side will remain the same.

[Jennifer]

What if we applied the China rules to France?

German NO:  The first time Germany captures France, Germany gains +19 IPC.  Each subsequent round that Germany controls France, Germany gets 5 IPC a round (this is to make up for France being allowed to build infantry elsewhere…)

France:  If Paris, France is in allied control, France may purchase Infantry and Artillery - else, France may only purchase infantry and place them in any French controlled territory.  Subsequently, of course, like with China, the allies can never control French territories, but the Axis can!