Face-to-Face Tournament Rules

[questioneer]

If your gonna go “per country” basis then the poker timer is what you want.  I think I figured this out 2 ways about 4 years ago when I presented the idea to Greg.

It like 7min a side or you wanted it weighted 3 hrs a side then divide by 2 players (Axis) and 3 players (Allies) I think Allies got like 6 min a side and Axis got 9min a side.

It is another way to do it but nothing beats the simplicity of setting the clock and just playing as they do in chess.

BB, you said that you hated losing “on time”.  You do that anyway in the current system.  In fact I remember when I played at GenCon I lost in my last round “on time”.

The clock only ensures that both sides use equal time of the 6 hours it won’t alleviate the fact that more time is needed.

IMHO I suggest that you use the current rules and the chess clock and …

AA41- 2hour time limit total (G-60)     60min per side
AA42- 6hour time limit total (G-180)    180min per side
AA50- 7hour time limit total (G-210)    210min per side
G40 -  12hour time limit total (G-360)  360min per side

For the 42 I would make LA worth something (that’s BS) and/or consider Honolulu as a VC (I know it was a mistake).  There is no reason for the US Pacific side to have no bonus points.  Someone please explain this to me.  It reduces strategic possibilities and give Japan no motivation to do anything in the Pacific.

I have always had a beef with the AA50 GenCon format but its not worth mentioning.  That game is behind me now.  Most players here at AA.org play G40 and will probably play a lot of AA42 (2nd ed) now- or they play AA50 the way it was meant to be played.  I would assume most players here who would be interested in coming to GenCon will primarily be interested in the formats for AA42 and G40 and less with AA50 and AA41.

[questioneer]

@squirecam:

@questioneer:

@squirecam:

So you throw out a bunch of attacks after being warned? Really?

But since you mentioned it, I dont recall any juvenile challenge. I do recall beating you at FTF revised, FWIW. Or maybe that was Q2…

I find it hard to discuss anything civil with you when your acting like a 5 year old. Perhaps you should apologize.

You’ve been warned also Mr. Troll

You call that an attack???… :roll: :roll: :roll:

You don’t recall the challenge…right.� � BTW I don’t think we’ve ever played Revised together or any game for that matter.

So I beat someone pretending to be you? � � ok…

I stopped saying anything once DJensen said something. You continued to escalate…

No shame in losing. Just in the way your acting.

You want this thread derailed, IMHO…

Honestly, all I remember you chickened on playing an AA50 game that’s it way back when.  Otherwise, I don’t remember playing a game at all.

Interested in a G40 TripleA game???

[questioneer]

Another thing that was mentioned was that the chess clocks may deter any newbies from playing in the FTF tourny.  This could be true, but on the other hand when I see the word “tournament” I’m thinking that it is somewhat competitive, otherwise just play a “free play” game with people.

[squirecam]

@questioneer:

@squirecam:

@questioneer:

@squirecam:

So you throw out a bunch of attacks after being warned? Really?

But since you mentioned it, I dont recall any juvenile challenge. I do recall beating you at FTF revised, FWIW. Or maybe that was Q2…

I find it hard to discuss anything civil with you when your acting like a 5 year old. Perhaps you should apologize.

You’ve been warned also Mr. Troll

You call that an attack???… :roll: :roll: :roll:

You don’t recall the challenge…right.� � BTW I don’t think we’ve ever played Revised together or any game for that matter.

So I beat someone pretending to be you? � � ok…

I stopped saying anything once DJensen said something. You continued to escalate…

No shame in losing. Just in the way your acting.

You want this thread derailed, IMHO…

Honestly, all I remember you chickened on playing an AA50 game that’s it way back when.  Otherwise, I don’t remember playing a game at all.

Interested in a G40 TripleA game???

I dont think so. Your tone in general and your conduct in this thread pretty much guarantees a no.

[squirecam]

@DizzKneeLand33:

True, the last rounds may take longer, but remember that you get to save up any “unused” time and use it later if you have it.

Also, if there are a couple of capitals down, you’d still have longer on a “per country” basis. � But all of that is where playtesting would have to come in.

You wont get to a capital in most games in 6 rounds. Perhaps Moscow. But thats it. Its just the time for adding VXC and calculating IPC that takes up more time.

[questioneer]

Sorry guys, this may put a damper on the whole chess clock idea.

I’ve been involved with tournament chess for years so you gotta trust me on this.  Other club players can confirm also however.

Here is a site that sells chess clocks, probably one if not the best site to get clocks.
http://www.wholesalechess.com/chess/chess_clocks/digital_chess_clocks/saitek_chess_competition_game_clock_to_scholastic_blue

This clock is the best for your money- its been selling for quite a few years now.  There are cheaper clocks but they are pretty much junk as I have had these and they break within the year.  Some reviews are even reporting that they are broken on arrival with the $20 clocks.

The link above is the cheapest durable clock (I have this also- its lasted 6 years so far) but as you can see its $40 not $20.  There are better clocks also but the price goes up from there.

So if GenCon or players are not willing to invest in a $40 clock, then we can stop this conversation right here.  That being said, chess clocks are the way to go in playing tourny AA IMHO.

Just some food for thought.

[squirecam]

@Gargantua:

Will you write a check for the clocks?

You know what. YES. I would cut the cheque and pay the bill.

Provided you actually listen to fan input, instead of -relegating- people to the “suggestion box”. Hold me to it.

I already solved this problem. Our rich benefactor has agreed to purchase said clocks. In fact, I assume they are bought and paid for and on their way to Gencon already……

[questioneer]

@squirecam:

@Gargantua:

Will you write a check for the clocks?

You know what. YES. I would cut the cheque and pay the bill.

Provided you actually listen to fan input, instead of -relegating- people to the “suggestion box”. Hold me to it.

I already solved this problem. Our rich benefactor has agreed to purchase said clocks. In fact, I assume they are bought and paid for and on their way to Gencon already……

We in that case lets buy the Chronos clocks at $90 :-D

[Imperious Leader]

no. this:

http://www.uscfsales.com/product_p/clkdez-bb.htm
$29 bucks

[smo63]

@djensen:

I just wanted to get the conversation started regarding face-to-face tournament rules. I would prefer to start the conversation with those who have run or played in face-to-face tournaments to set the tone, from experience about what does and does not work. I’m sure it will depend on the game version as well.

Since it has been over 5 years since I’ve played in a tournament, I’ll refrain from comments until I’ve either playtested suggestions or have returned from GenCon 2012.

Ding, ding, ding…I guess it is time for me to chime in.  I can’t believe someone did ask where in the hell I was.

OK, now, for my viewpoint and Dave, let me know if I am missing something here or I am out of line, but basically, you asked about FTF tournament rules, from experience what works and what does not…

How can Questioneer turn this thread into Chess clock timer issue. We don’t play with Chess clocks now.  They don’t come in the games for tournaments use, so, just curious why doesn’t everyone jump on Q when he brings up something completely irrelevant to the topic at hand?

Just my thought on the subject…

Peace,
Gregory J. Smorey
Axis & Allies Tournament Director/GM - GEN CON/Origins/Spring Gathering

[smo63]

@smo63:

@djensen:

I just wanted to get the conversation started regarding face-to-face tournament rules. I would prefer to start the conversation with those who have run or played in face-to-face tournaments to set the tone, from experience about what does and does not work. I’m sure it will depend on the game version as well.

Since it has been over 5 years since I’ve played in a tournament, I’ll refrain from comments until I’ve either playtested suggestions or have returned from GenCon 2012.

Ding, ding, ding…I guess it is time for me to chime in.  I can’t believe someone didn’t ask where in the hell I was considering my name was mentioned probably more than anyone elses…

OK, now, from my viewpoint and Dave, let me know if I am missing something here or I am out of line, but basically, you asked about FTF tournament rules, from experience what works and what does not…

How can Questioneer turn this thread into Chess clock timer issue. We don’t play with Chess clocks now.  They don’t come in the games for tournaments use, so, just curious why doesn’t everyone jump on Q when he brings up something completely irrelevant to the topic at hand?

Just my thought on the subject…

Peace,
Gregory J. Smorey
Axis & Allies Tournament Director/GM - GEN CON/Origins/Spring Gathering

[smo63]

@questioneer:

Chess clocks- I don’t think you understand.

Q, I really think that you might be the one that doesn’t understand.

Let me explain this to you in the simplest form I know how.  For starters, yes, we have discussed this and if I recall, it has been awhile, but in length regarding the use of chess clock timers.

And I would appreciate if you could stop continually beating down the idea that “GEN CON” players are set in their ways.

When was the last time you have been at GEN CON.  And could you please state for me the last time I changed or implemented a rule for game play at GEN CON or Origins based on what the people that come and play want?  Just throw out any one rule.  Be specific.

I thought so.

So, Dave, to answer your question and more specifically about game clocks.  I will NOT say they don’t work nor have I ever said we can’t use them or even considered using them.  They are actually a very good idea BUT only in a controlled setting where everyone knows ahead of time they will be used and agrees that they will be used.  That is problem number one and what Q and some of the other very talented AA players on this forum fail to understand.

Problem two.  I run events and tournaments for AA board games.  When one comes to a CON, as you did back in LA, I have to provide an event for anyone and anybody that wants to come and play.  Then I have to make sure that anyone that wants to play, can understand, fairly easily, under what circumstances we play.  And in almost every case, I have to keep the game as close to the base OTB game as possible.

When it comes to tournaments, and since I have been doing this 19 years now, we used to just let players play until a time when we knew we had to have each game stop in order to get the whole tournament in the time frame allotted.

If a game was not finished, and/or a winner was not determined, we had to judicate games.  And back then, we came up with rules based on who might be ahead and who most likely would win at the time in which the game needed to end.  Mind you, this was all with the old Classic 2nd Ed. game.  What then happened was players didn’t agree with the judges decisions and I had enough of judicating.  So, I went to Larry and we came up with the VC bonuses system we currently have.  So, I am curious why Q doesn’t complain to Larry about that one, instead of bashing only me over it…?

Ok, beside the point.  But what I am trying to say is that for most if not all events that we are running now, I can’t ask people to bring clocks.  And what happens if someone shows up and doesn’t have one but still wants to play?  Do I tell him sorry, you can’t because you don’t have a clock.  And then what happens if we don’t have enough clocks for everyone.  Is, Q going to supply us with the short fall…

Then there is the issue of, if we used the clocks, it is not part of the game, and sure enough some players will be versed at playing with clocks while others, may never have played with them, and would spend more time trying to figure out how to use them during game play, they would end up wasting the time the clocks were suppose to save.

With that being said, I don’t believe that just because we don’t play with chess clocks at this time, doesn’t mean that we have not considered them or that they might not work, it is just under the circumstances by which the games are played, does not fit into the equation.

So, I could see game clocks being used for a Masters Events were players, were ahead of time told they would be used and, the event was by invitation only.

But until Larry/WotC, starts putting clocks in the game boxes for the base tournaments, I just don’t see it happening.

So, Q can say what he wants, but I think that is a fairly sound reason for not using them up to this point.  And logical one to boot…

Peace,
Gregory J. Smorey

Axis & Allies Tournament Director/GM - GEN CON/Origins/Spring Gathering

[djensen]

Albiet at times snarky, this makes a lot of sense. If you walk up (without reading the online catalog of events on the hard to navigate GenCon site) and want to play an A&A and have an A&A game with you, you should be able to play (without anything else). If Wizards were willing to provide clocks, it would be different but they will not.

I also think the idea of chess clocks at a masters or invitation only tournament makes a lot of sense too.

I know I’m going to see some arguments about chess tournaments and chess games not coming with clocks but, IMO, that is completely different.

Greg, how do you handle turtling? Or slow beginners? I can see an experienced player losing to a beginner if they have bad rolls and can only get through 4 rounds. And extra 2-3 rounds on top should even the playing field but if the beginner is not fast enough, it’s not fair to the experienced player.

Finally, personally, I’m going to download a chess clock app on my iPhone for $1 and use it during the tournament. The other player need not participate but I would like to know for my own benefit, how long I’m taking to complete my turns and if I’m getting faster as the tournament proceeds.

[djensen]

@questioneer:

So if GenCon or players are not willing to invest in a $40 clock, then we can stop this conversation right here.  That being said, chess clocks are the way to go in playing tourny AA IMHO.

Just some food for thought.

I haven’t been to GenCon Indy but I understand from you folks and other people I know who have gone, there is a lot of opportunity to sign up on the spot and not in advance of arriving. If you require clocks (and don’t provide them) you’ll lose a lot of players. I think I’d rather see a ton of people playing A&A than a few.

But, again, for an invitational tournament, anything goes for being prepared in advance. With that said; there needs to be the layman’s tournament rules and the master’s tournament rules. We can discuss both; maybe a new thread for the master’s rules?

[smo63]

@djensen:

Albiet at times snarky, this makes a lot of sense. If you walk up (without reading the online catalog of events on the hard to navigate GenCon site) and want to play an A&A and have an A&A game with you, you should be able to play (without anything else). If Wizards were willing to provide clocks, it would be different but they will not.

I also think the idea of chess clocks at a masters or invitation only tournament makes a lot of sense too.

I know I’m going to see some arguments about chess tournaments and chess games not coming with clocks but, IMO, that is completely different.

Greg, how do you handle turtling? Or slow beginners? I can see an experienced player losing to a beginner if they have bad rolls and can only get through 4 rounds. And extra 2-3 rounds on top should even the playing field but if the beginner is not fast enough, it’s not fair to the experienced player.

Finally, personally, I’m going to download a chess clock app on my iPhone for $1 and use it during the tournament. The other player need not participate but I would like to know for my own benefit, how long I’m taking to complete my turns and if I’m getting faster as the tournament proceeds.

Dave,

Great question.  That does happen on occassion.  But I have never had it cause a problem with the outcome of a game.  And I will say never.  That is when a newer player comes to the table vs. a vet.

Where the abuse occurs is with the vet vs. vets.  They try and abuse the system.  They try and pit their opponent against the clock so to speak and then accuse them of stalling.

My point is this is suppose to be fun.  And no one wants to be staring down the barrel of a clock as well as your opponent.

Now, how do I handle this.  I used to have written in the rules that there were to be “No Stalling”  If this happens may result in Forfieture.  Then I even went as far as to say, that you will get one verbal warning and then if your opponent complains again, and the judges believe that you are in fact trying to stall, you could get disqualified.

I have since taken that out becase with the “END TIME” rules, we now, never have that problem.

http://smo63.fatcow.com/pdf/EndTimeRules2012.pdf

Now the “End Time” rules were created by those that have played over the years and I have tweaked them to meet each new games requirements.

In these rules, I state that if you do not get to a certain round you are playing too slow and need to speed things up…

Hope this helps…

[questioneer]

Greg,

All barking aside, I remember we had a long conversation about chess clocks and why you would not implement them.  Its coming back to me now and I understand why you don’t.  That’s fine.  I respect that.  They are good reasons.  Chess clocks CAN work in AA tournaments but I believe that it would be a hard sell to the many players there who have played the same way for a while now.  So no chess clocks- disappointing but I understand.

Another question though.  So on the bonus system with the 42 game that you and Larry developed back in the Revised days which carried over to 42- 1st ed and now 42- 2nd ed….are you saying we go to Larry for changes on those tourny rules???  If we did, and he listened, you would then play by those rules???  So you are letting him determine the tourny rules for GenCon since you don’t want me complaining to you???  If we went to Larry and were successful, we wouldn’t be accused of “brainwashing” Larry again would we???

I say this b/c I do think there needs to be some tweeks here.  It has been a few years and this isn’t Revised anymore.  LA should have Bonus points and maybe some ratios shifted around slightly across the board.  Also, I think the 42 2nd edition game should get 6hrs not 4hrs- well that’s going a little far ahead for next year I guess- gotta wait to see how things play out this year.

DJensen,

I agree with your points.  However, $10 says you forget to hit your clock.  If you wanna playtest it, you gotta have both sides do it with a real clock.  I will probably test this with the new 42 game and G40 game FTF near the end of August when I got some time with some gamers then.  I report back.  Should be interesting.  I’ll play 42 with a G-180 time control and G40 with a G-360 time control.

[smo63]

@djensen:

@questioneer:

So if GenCon or players are not willing to invest in a $40 clock, then we can stop this conversation right here.� That being said, chess clocks are the way to go in playing tourny AA IMHO.�

Just some food for thought.

I haven’t been to GenCon Indy but I understand from you folks and other people I know who have gone, there is a lot of opportunity to sign up on the spot and not in advance of arriving. If you require clocks (and don’t provide them) you’ll lose a lot of players. I think I’d rather see a ton of people playing A&A than a few.

Bingo!  You just hit the head on the nail…exactly.  This does happen and many people come from all over to play.  And if they just don’t happen to get on AA.org or whatever forum and wouldn’t have the chance to check out my website for rules (not all inquiry minds have to know in advance before they get to GEN CON) before they get to GEN CON, there will be a lot of people walking away.

Then when that happens, I am the one that needs to answer to WotC and Larry.  Not Q or Garg or whomever…

[smo63]

@djensen:

Dave, again, I agree with you 110%.  And that will happen.  I plan on having a novice tournament next year for those that like playing competively but hate playing vs. the vets.  I have had many walk away from the game because they can’t beat the best players…

[questioneer]

@smo63:

Where the abuse occurs is with the vet vs. vets.  They try and abuse the system.  They try and pit their opponent against the clock so to speak and then accuse them of stalling.Â

My point is this is suppose to be fun.  And no one wants to be staring down the barrel of a clock as well as your opponent.

Now, how do I handle this.  I used to have written in the rules that there were to be "No Stalling"  If this happens may result in Forfieture.  Then I even went as far as to say, that you will get one verbal warning and then if your opponent complains again, and the judges believe that you are in fact trying to stall, you could get disqualified.

I have since taken that out becase with the “END TIME” rules, we now, never have that problem.Â

http://smo63.fatcow.com/pdf/EndTimeRules2012.pdf

Now the “End Time” rules were created by those that have played over the years and I have tweaked them to meet each new games requirements.Â

In these rules, I state that if you do not get to a certain round you are playing too slow and need to speed things up…

Hope this helps…

Makes sense…I understand.  I’m just more of a concrete type of person.  As in chess, the application of the clock eliminates all grey areas.  Those are parameters I can live with.  Like I said before, as in chess, playing with the clock would be a big adjustment for players to get used to and djensen is right, you would lose players before gaining them back again later.

[smo63]

@questioneer:

Greg,

Another question though. � So on the bonus system with the 42 game that you and Larry developed back in the Revised days which carried over to 42- 1st ed and now 42- 2nd ed….are you saying we go to Larry for changes on those tourny rules??? � If we did, and he listened, you would then play by those rules??? � So you are letting him determine the tourny rules for GenCon since you don’t want me complaining to you??? � If we went to Larry and were successful, we wouldn’t be accused of “brainwashing” Larry again would we???

I say this b/c I do think there needs to be some tweeks here. � It has been a few years and this isn’t Revised anymore. � LA should have Bonus points and maybe some ratios shifted around slightly across the board. � Also, I think the 42 2nd edition game should get 6hrs not 4hrs- well that’s going a little far ahead for next year I guess- gotta wait to see how things play out this year.

Ah…so you do remember…

As for pulling Larry into this.  Hey, you can do whatever you want.  I just want to give Larry credit where credit is due him.  But no, you shouldn’t be going to Larry for changes in the system.  I could bet if you did, he would say, talk to Greg.  I am not going to put words in Larry’s mouth, but I don’t believe Larry wants to have anything to do with what I do.  He has told me on more than one occassion and at GEN CON, I glad you do this and not me…

The point being, he enjoys working with me, us, on rules of this nature, but when he sees what I have to go through at a CON to please the masses…he usually says, no thanks.  Now, again, that is in my own words.  And enough with the “brainwash” stuff.  Obiviously there must be some truth behind it or you wouldn’t continually be bringing it up…I stated my thought… move on…

Now, serveral years ago, we came up with the system.  And since we have continually adjusted accordingly to the games changing.  But since then we still have not seen a reason to give SF a bonus.  That is NOT to say that now with the new board it might change, but until we play test it in this environment, I can’t say.  And I can’t change the system over night just to please a few.  After GEN CON, if enough people believe that it should change it should.